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I am glad for you!
Can the Quran stand the test?
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I am glad for you!
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
it was not my intent to get mixed up in this thread, nor do i feel that i have left this question unanswered in past threads, HOWEVER, the question is once poised again, so i will attempt, In Sha'a Allah, to offer a brief answer:
source:
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/15authenticity.htm
when the Qur'an was written down, plus:
that is only offered as "evidence"as i am attempting to answer the question on short notice. one should take up a study on the history of the Qur'an if one is genuinely interested in this knowledge. however if one is merely attempting to "refute Islam," i have written more than enough.
you will also find, if you study the Seerah [life] of the Messenger of Allah, pbuh, that Companions of the Messenger were indeed present when WAHY [Revelation] came down, though not necessarily witness to Gabriel s presence.
HOWEVER, we also have the "Jibril Hadeeth:"
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...uslim/hadith/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.300
from 40 Ahadeeth:
http://fortyhadith.iiu.edu.my/hadith02.htm
the question has been addressed.
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^^ I stopped answering with interest, as I don't see the Quran and the 'bibles' to be on the same level.. if anything we can compare if at all it would be the ahadith as they are narrated and even those have a system of isnad which is lacking in the bibles..
I answered the question, but let me make it clearer for you
you ask; where are the witness that can testify to that the communicator of the Qur'an to Mohammad was actually the angel Jibreel and not some other source?
and I answered ; the book itself is more than convincing for me to be from a divine source..... If a book proved to be inerrant,miracelous,with fulfilled prophecies one can't help but to believe in its divine source
Now you wonder ...If only Mohamed had witnesses that can testify to that his communicator of the Qur'an was actually the angel Jibreel and not some other source..
As if your doubt of his message which you been taught from your early years of childhood ,would all of a sudden evaporates,once you read the testimonies !!
I will give you a living example of why the testiminies of the eyewitnesses who see,hear the angels would never convince such who been brought up doubting the message of someone claiming prophethood..
if you'll get a copy of the Book of Mormon, and open it, you'll see the testimony of the eight witnesses who swear that they didn't see the angel bring the plates(the Golden Plates that the Angel Moroni allegedly brought down to Joseph Smith) down but they handled them with their hands.
"And we also know that they [that is, the words in the Book of Mormon], have been translated by the gift and power of God for His voice hath declared it unto us. Wherefore, we know of assurety that the Work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings [these are the Golden Plates that the Angel Moroni allegedly brought down to Joseph Smith]. They say, we saw them. "And they have been shown unto us by the power of God and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness that an angel of God came down from heaven and he brought and laid before our eyes...." And he goes on to, and they go on to say, "and we saw it." "We touched them." "We handled them." "We know that it happened."
How such first hand testimony from the witnesses helped those who doubt the book of Mormons? .
Do you believe that an angel authenticated the Book of Mormon?
No you don't and me too...
and the reason (for me at least) that I believe the extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs ........
in other words what may authenticate the Book of Mormon is the book of Mormon ,what may authenticate the Quran is the Quran etc......
another point to be well taken , How would witnesses like that know that the figure in contact with Mohamed was an angel?
can't the devil took a form claiming to be angel and dellude both?!!
yes he can......
but he can't teach him such amazing work (The Quran)...
In other words again what matters is the fruit of the inspiration not the process itself...
I can't agree more ...
and that strengthen more and more my point...... any text should offer more than assertions to be valid ..
what is the use of dozens of verses in the bible claiming it to be inspired, or even dozens of witnesses that the holy spirit had a contact with Jesus in front of them during inspiration, if the text itself errant ,having nothing to support its claims to be divine?
I wish you no longer believe in such flawed argument (witnesses for the process of inspiration to validate the work) and instead using mine (The work validates itself)....
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Yes, he is living in a nursing home in Michigan. His roommate is JFK, who is confined to a wheelchair.
Now, how many of those who have posted said stories have given their lives to substantiate them? Those who claimed to have seen the risen Christ did, when they could have confessed it as a hoax and lived.
As for those who have sought to answer my question(s) about witnesses, a serious thank-you. I don't have time this weekend to read with the depth some of you have answered, but hope to be able to digest it more thoroughly next week.
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http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm
It seems plain to me, that if Muslims accept a higher criticism of the Bible - they must accept a higher criticism of the Qur'an. And if they are to reject the Gospels as inauthentic records because of slight variances in our manuscripts - they must dismiss the 'Gospel of Jesus' as myth[91] - because there are no manuscripts. If Muslims believe that any variance in the texts of revelation is a sure sign that a revelation is not from God - then the Qur'an is surely not of God. If Muslims maintain that there has been a grand conspiracy of history and that the testimony of the witnesses cannot be trusted - then no one can trust the verbal records of the Hadith - recorded centuries later. And yet if the Hadith are accurate, the Qur'an does have variances. Plainly, Muslim apologists cannot deny the authenticity of the Biblical text - without undermining all support for the Quranic text. Plainly Muslim apologists need some new arguments. Some better arguments. Some arguments that will discredit the Bible - without destroying the Qur'an.
It seems plain to me, that if Muslims accept a higher criticism of the Bible - they must accept a higher criticism of the Qur'an. And if they are to reject the Gospels as inauthentic records because of slight variances in our manuscripts - they must dismiss the 'Gospel of Jesus' as myth[91] - because there are no manuscripts. If Muslims believe that any variance in the texts of revelation is a sure sign that a revelation is not from God - then the Qur'an is surely not of God. If Muslims maintain that there has been a grand conspiracy of history and that the testimony of the witnesses cannot be trusted - then no one can trust the verbal records of the Hadith - recorded centuries later. And yet if the Hadith are accurate, the Qur'an does have variances. Plainly, Muslim apologists cannot deny the authenticity of the Biblical text - without undermining all support for the Quranic text. Plainly Muslim apologists need some new arguments. Some better arguments. Some arguments that will discredit the Bible - without destroying the Qur'an.
Very Simple.
The bible is full of contradictions were the Holy Quran has NONE Verfying the authenticity of the true message of Allah SWT, his true words and message because only a perfect message can be contributed to Allah SWT.
Hamayun
Allahu Akbar
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After reading this thread I wonder... if only people put this much effort into working together for something constructive the world would be a better place.
All I see is bicker... bicker.. bicker.. :exhausted
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
You and your fellow Kafirs do not have even the slightest understanding of WHY the Qur'an was written down in the 1st place! for the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam and his Companions, RadiaAllahu Anhum, the "Book of Allah" wasn't written down "as a book." the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, would have at least one of the scribes write each new Revelation down and instructed them as to the proper placement in the Qur'an.
the Arabs themselves, for the most part, COULD NOT READ OR WRITE! they relied on MEMORY! hence, THEY MEMORIZED THE QUR'AN! it was revealed over a period of 23 years and the last Revelation was within a few months of the Prophet's, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, death.
DURING THE ENTIRE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, THERE WERE THOSE WHO MEMORIZED ALL OF THE QUR'AN, CALLED Hafz, or Huffaz for plural.
it was ONLY after A LARGE NUMBER of HAFZ were Martyred in the Battle Aqraba, that Umar ibn Al Kittaab, RadiAllau Anhu confronted the Kalifa, Abu Bakr As Siddiq, RadiAllahu Anhu, with the idea of "collecting" the Qur'an as a written document. and if you think Abu Bakr, May Allah be Pleased with him thought it was a great idea, YOU WOULD BE WRONG! Abu Bakr REFUSED! after all, A)the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam, NEVER ORDERED the Qur'an to be collected in one written document and B) THEY DIDN'T NEED IT!
ONLY AFTER LONG DEBATE, DID Kalifa Abu Bakr As Siddiq, RadiAllahu Anhu, agree to have the Qur'an preserved in this manner! Zaid ibn Thaabit, RadiAllahu Anhu, the Messenger's personal scribe was charged with the task. he was order to ONLY USE THE AYATS WERE WRITTEN DOWN IN THE PRESENCE OF the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam.
if you think your "New Testament", contains ANYTHING written down in the presence of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, please produce it along with the evidence!
also, the current estimate of those who have the Qur'an memorized is over 8,000,000!
i would venture to guess that the amount of "Christians" that have "Bible" memorized "in it's original languages" is well, ZERO! NOT A ONE! ANYWHERE! [and i'm leaving Muslim Dr Zakir Naik out of this]
posting CRAP from "orientalists" websites merely shows that you are here to argue and start trouble. why don't you go learn your own polytheistic/ henotheistic/ paganistic religion for yourself and whomever else you would like to lead astray. and of course, do it elsewhere!
the qur'an's method of transmission and preservation is the best one that could have been achieved as such, much better than most texts of it's time in that area. there is a minimum level of uncertainty that is to be ignored, otherwise one would endlessly keep asking without getting answers. how do you validate anything at that, even if you saw it it could all be brains in vats..
"we reject them because they are not contemporaneous to the time of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessing's be on the both of them."
LOL! poor arguement for the Quran was not compiled until after Mohammad died so we do not really know what was left out and then they were all burned except for a few select copies!!
But the Gospels are- Paul mentions that very scripture in his writings and he died in 67AD
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
Yes and some that had memorized the verses were killed in battle and it was know by Aiasha that verses were missing.
Did you know the communist countries people memorized pages of the Gospel in order to keep it alive during those years of rule.
One of Muslims biggest problems though is that the Quran confirms the Gospel.
Did I not add the link to those statements sorry here is it: http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm
LOL! poor arguement for the Quran was not compiled until after Mohammad died so we do not really know what was left out and then they were all burned except for a few select copies!!
But the Gospels are- Paul mentions that very scripture in his writings and he died in 67AD
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
Yes and some that had memorized the verses were killed in battle and it was know by Aiasha that verses were missing.
Did you know the communist countries people memorized pages of the Gospel in order to keep it alive during those years of rule.
One of Muslims biggest problems though is that the Quran confirms the Gospel.
Did I not add the link to those statements sorry here is it: http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm
YusufNoor said:
You do not have the slightest understanding of the bible
YusufNoor said:
You’re question makes absolutely no sense!
There was no story to write down until after Jesus died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Only then was there a story. Therefore it was impossible to write it in his presence.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were men. They were witnesses to events.
Afterwards they travelled far and wide telling people the things they had witnessed.
Years after the events, people had the idea of writing it down. Hence it’s not possible to write it down in the presence of Jesus or Mary.
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But do any of them understand it?
Questions about the Koran on this forum and others are answered with "we are not scholars - only a scholar can answer the question".
Questions about the bible and christianity can be answered in one word "Love".
Therefore christianity is very easy to understand.
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Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
so i reckon you didn't bother to read my post!
the Qur'an is a, are you ready for this, A RECITATION! you RECITE IT! Abu Bakr As Siddiq DID NOT WANT TO PUT IT IN WRITING! it was not considered necessary!
MUSLIMS RECITE THE QUR'AN! DAILY! we recite it in prayer and in Ramadhan, it is recited in it's entirety during Prayer! and WHEN it is recited, if the Imam makes a mistake, he is corrected!
before the Hijrah, the Muslims were required to pray for one third to one half the night! 2 Rakahs, that meant that the spent the majority of the night in Qiyam RECITING QUR'AN!
after that, and with the exception of Surah Yusuf, the Revelation can down in verse form or as a few verses!
the Sahabah, RadiAllahu Anhum had the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alayhe was Salaam in their presence! they were overjoyed to be with him and it was their understanding that the MOST IMPORTANT thing that you could do was LEARN TO RECITE AND TEACH QUR'AN! orientalists never add that as part of the equation!
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
i would love to hear more on how atheists are EXPERTS on the bible! justy do it in another thread!
YusufNoor said:
Good! So you are now agreeing with the Christians!
Christians say, that the gospel of Mark for example, was writen by Mark or his followers.
Muslims claim, the gospel came from Jesus, was written by Mark or his folklowers and then it was corrupted.
So you can see, that you are agreeing with the Christians.
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Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
CLOSE, but no cigar Joey!
the Muslim position would be:
Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, pbuh, was born of a Virgin[Marriam] came and preached and was a mighty Messenger of Allah. when he finished delivering his Message [from Allah], he was raised into the heavens alive.
his preaching contained 2 things:
1) Glad Tidings, Good News [re Gospel]
2) Warnings
Christians discarded this, lost it, or corrupted into a mix of Pagan & Polytheistic beliefs.
if you think that was Mark, that is YOUR business. btw, the oldest texts of Mark(?) end with a former Adulteress chatting with an Angel. there is NO risen Jesus in it!
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