Can the Quran stand the test?

[جوري]

If it was a tick or Tourettes would I be less of a person?

No, but seek treatment!
There are many meds out there to help!

all the best

 

[naseem]

In the present and future era, the Quraan al-Hakeem is an outstanding proof of the prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam. It is also a proof that the Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam was the Final of the Prophets and Final of the Messengers of Allah. Before giving proof from the Holy Quraan, I must clarify the fact that those in doubt about the Divine nature of the Quraan are of two types:
1. Those who are sincere to themselves. Their doubt is due to lack of knowledge. We have sympathy with them and answer their questions and arguments with due respect. We believe that it is our duty to explain the truth to them. Perchance they may understand and then try to protect themselves from the everlasting punishment in the Hereafter.

2. The second type of people who are doubtful about the Quraan are those who are not sincere to themselves. Their doubts are not based on lack of their knowledge. Rather they knowingly plan to create doubts in the minds of other people trying to make others astray. We are not supposed to waste our time with them because they will never show satisfaction and will always try to turn the facts upside down.

I will quote an example of such stubborn people from the Miraculous Quraan, that is the Book of All Mighty Allah which has answer to every question and solution to every problem at all places and times.

Once the Prophet Ibrahim alaihi salaam invited the King Namrood to believe in the existence and oneness of All Mighty God Allah. The King Namrood (who had claimed to be God and did not believe in the existence and oneness of All Mighty God Allah) asked about the qualities of Allah. Prophet Ibrahim alaihi salaam said: “My Lord is He Who gives life and death.” The stubborn king said that he also could give life and death. To prove this, he freed a man who was sentenced to death and arrested a free non-criminal man and killed him. The Prophet Ibrahim alaihi salaam understood the stubbornness of the stupid king and didn’t argue with him in that question anymore but said to him, “but It is Allah who makes the sun rise in the east. You make it rise in the west.” At this question the rejecter of faith remained confounded. But in spite of that he continued his denial of God. So Allah subhaanahu wa ta’ala said: “Allah does not guide the unjust people.” That means: Allah has given freedom of choice to mankind to choose truth or falsehood. If a person knowingly rejects the truth of the Islamic faith, then Allah will leave him immersed in falsehood. It is not the principle of Allah to force people to choose the Right and true Path of Islam. See verse 258 of Surah Al-Baqarah in the Holy Quraan.

Our duty is to answer questions, clarify any misunderstandings or doubts based on lack of knowledge. But when we find a stubborn fellow, who has himself chosen the Path of Hell and has decided to stick to it, we should leave him on that path.

Some facts about the Divine Nature of the Miraculous Quraan:
Allah said in Surah (chapter) Al-Qalam (the Pen):

Nun, (I swear) by the Pen and by that which (they) write, that you are not mad by the Grace of your Lord. And surely for you is a Reward not ending. And you are on an Exalted Standard of Character. Soon you will see and they will see, which of you is afflicted with madness. (Translation of the first 6 verses of Surah Al-Qalam)

As we can see, in these verses Allah All Mighty God swore by the pen and the Statement of the Holy Quraan that was written with pen. Allah swore for the High Status of the Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam and said that soon you (o Muhammad) will see and the unbelievers will also see and know who among you is afflicted with madness.

Allah Subhaanahu wa Ta’ala swore by the pen and the verses / statement of the Holy Quraan because this statement was going to be a Grand and Outstanding Proof of the True and Final Prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam.

Now everybody can see that the Holy Quraan is absolutely preserved and will remain preserved and unchanged until the end of this world in spite of the drastic attempts of the enemies to change it.
I put forward only one question to those who doubt about the Holy Quraan that it is the Book of Allah:
Why couldn’t the opponents of the Quraan even change the letter nun (N), the letter with which the chapter Al-Qalam starts? That is a challenge. None could change it and no one can change it till the end of this world!

Until now no one could change even the letters nun (N), Sad (S) and Qaaf (Q) at the beginning of the chapters Al Qalam, Saad and Qaaf in the Holy Quraan. This is because Allah All Mighty promised to preserve it.

The preservation of the Holy Quraan by Allah is also a proof of the Finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam. So that the Final Book of guidance remains unchanged till the end of this world and the unbelievers / rejectors will have no plea for their unbelief on the Day of Accounting/Judgment.

Allah said in the Holy Quraan that every living thing is created from water. This is a fact which is discovered now by science.

Allah said in chapter 51 (Al-Dhaariyaat) verse 47 that He (Allah) created the Heaven and He is expanding it (increasing in vastness). Only today’s scientists discovered the fact that the universe is expanding and increasing in vastness like a balloon which expands when air is blown into it.

The present scientists have put forward a theory about the creation of the world. It says that the heaven and the earth were joined in a ball-like structure when a BIG BANG occurred and the ball broke into pieces to make the universe.

In chapter 21 (the Prophets) verse 30, Allah said: do not the unbelievers see that the Heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation) before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

In this verse Allah Subhaanahu Wa Ta’ala not only revealed the fact about the creation of the Heavens and the earth, but also addressed and questioned indirectly those unbelievers who know this fact, that is, the present scientists. This is the Miraculous status of the Holy Quraan that 1430 years ago Allah informed His Final Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam in verse 30 of Chapter Al-Anbiya (The Prophets) about the following things:
1. the heavens and the earth ( the world ) was created from one piece of creation by a big bang.
2. great scientists will discover this fact (about the big bang) (by scientific knowledge that Allah gave them.)
3. these scientists will be unbelievers.
4. so Allah questioned them “will they not then believe” (in the prophethood of Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam and in the Holy Quraan as the Heavenly Book after seeing its Miraculous status. (That means that Allah informed the Prophet Sallallaho alaihi wasallam about the facts that would be discovered 1430 years after Quraan’s revelation.

It is our duty to present this verse (verse 30 of Surah 21) to the scientists. Most probably they will enter the fold of Islam, Insha-Allah.

The above mentioned points prove that The Quraan is a Book of Allah for the guidance of man-kind so that they can struggle hard to protect themselves from the everlasting Hell. We sincerely advise every reader of this post to think seriously about their life in the HEREAFTER and try to protect themselves from Hell.

 

[Follower]

Actually the miracle that is the Quran proves nothing except that Mohammad had access to great scribes. He could easily be an illiterate poet. There is hadith about the scribes suggesting the wording of verses and Mohammad taking the advice.

One thing I have noticed in the Quran, Allah swears by his creations and things lesser then himself. Allah never swears by Himself as YHWH does.

Jeremiah 22
5 But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' "

There are many websites that have disproved the science of the Quran

 

[جوري]

Actually the miracle that is the Quran proves nothing except that Mohammad had access to great scribes.

Really, who were they? we must give them a standing ovation

He could easily be an illiterate poet.

Except that the Quran isn't a book of poetry!

There is hadith about the scribes suggesting the wording of verses and Mohammad taking the advice.

Bring it forth then!

One thing I have noticed in the Quran, Allah swears by his creations and things lesser then himself. Allah never swears by Himself as YHWH does.

Allah takes a vow in the negative, (i.E) I need not call your attention to! do you want to go one on one in Arabic grammar?

Jeremiah 22
5 But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' "

What palace, what ruins? who is your lord? the man who committed suicide? amazing he can put a palace to ruin but not save himself?

There are many websites that have disproved the science of the Quran

All refuted, but you have no interest in reading!

all the best!

 

[Grace Seeker]

What palace, what ruins? who is your lord? the man who committed suicide? amazing he can put a palace to ruin but not save himself?

What/who are you talkıng about?

 

[جوري]

What/who are you talkıng about?

You should direct that question to your pal follower!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm talking about your reference to suicide.


You have described Jesus as self-immolating before, and I have not disagreed with it because Jesus did indeed participate in a deliberate and willing sacrifice of himself (though it wasn't by fire, which is the usual form of self-immolation). But there is, I think, a distinction between the self-immolattion of the sort that Jesus accepted as necessary to complete his mission and suicide. For instance, one does not say that a soldier who sacrificed his own life so that others of his comrades might live committed suicide. So, when you speak of suicide above, I am at a loss as to whom you are referring?

 

[جوري]

I'm talking about your reference to suicide.


You have described Jesus as self-immolating before, and I have not disagreed with it because Jesus did indeed participate in a deliberate and willing sacrifice of himself (though it wasn't by fire, which is the usual form of self-immolation). But there is, I think, a distinction between the self-immolattion of the sort that Jesus accepted as necessary to complete his mission and suicide. For instance, one does not say that a soldier who sacrificed his own life so that others of his comrades might live committed suicide. So, when you speak of suicide above, I am at a loss as to whom you are referring?

When a 'solider' sacrifices his life for those of others there is usually something tangible to be seen as gained. When your God Jesus self-immolated, thereby committed suicide, nothing was gained save for breech of God's original commandments through his nemesis Saul and a million sect!

all the best..

 

[Grace Seeker]

When your God Jesus self-immolated, thereby committed suicide, nothing was gained save for breech of God's original commandments through his nemesis Saul and a million sect!

So, you were referring to Jesus. As self-immolation is not understood to be the same as suicide, you may want to decide which term you are going to use to describe Jesus' death and then stick with it. As for what was gained by his death, non-Christians would surely assert nothing. But Christians assert that by his death Jesus accomplished reconcilation between God and mankind, thereby gaining the possiblity of our salvation.

 

[Hamayun]

by his death Jesus accomplished reconcilation between God and mankind, thereby gaining the possiblity of our salvation.

Which God???

I thought Jesus was God for you? He died to accomplish reconcilation between himself and mankind??? :?

A God who died? :?

How very strange!!!

 

[جوري]

So, you were referring to Jesus. As self-immolation is not understood to be the same as suicide, you may want to decide which term you are going to use to describe Jesus' death and then stick with it. As for what was gained by his death, non-Christians would surely assert nothing. But Christians assert that by his death Jesus accomplished reconcilation between God and mankind, thereby gaining the possiblity of our salvation.

actually I stand by suicide, your God committed suicide for apparently no good reason other than a creative story that your swine loving elders concocted .. what a shame .. the day that 'God' died and still life went on!


all the best

 

[Follower]

Well my post was dumped, I was getting too close to the truth. The information was from Islam itself. Sad day for Muslims when all history is rewritten.

This is an interesting verse:
34:50
Say: "That if I became misguided so but I misguide on my self, and if I was guided, so with what my Lord inspires/transmits to me, that He truly is hearing/listening, near/close."

If Mohammad was misguided there are a whole slew of people that have been misguided. If Uthmann was misguided?

Muslims will never be able to truly test the Quran and must follow it on blind faith. Funny that is what Christians are accused of. Muslims are just not ready at this time.

The Bible has withstood the test- Gospel and Torah even confirmed by the Quran.

This thread can be closed.

 

[Zafran]

Well my post was dumped, I was getting too close to the truth. The information was from Islam itself. Sad day for Muslims when all history is rewritten.

This is an interesting verse:
34:50
Say: "That if I became misguided so but I misguide on my self, and if I was guided, so with what my Lord inspires/transmits to me, that He truly is hearing/listening, near/close."

If Mohammad was misguided there are a whole slew of people that have been misguided. If Uthmann was misguided?

Muslims will never be able to truly test the Quran and must follow it on blind faith. Funny that is what Christians are accused of. Muslims are just not ready at this time.

The Bible has withstood the test- Gospel and Torah even confirmed by the Quran.

This thread can be closed.

Your actaully a hypocrite here because we can use your logic against you as many men have constructed the bible
what if paul, Luke, mattew, John and mark were all misguided - that means there pauline chirstainity must have been wrong!

No the bible doesnt stand the test of time - with all the contradictions of the bible many people are seeing through the 300 AD book. What if the church fathers were misguided. You see how hypocritical your post is.

your accused of blind faith becasue of the holy Ghost and trinty which doenst make logical sense what so ever and is heavily incoherent with previous messege.


Nice try - about the gospel is said to be from God not gospels of John, matthew, mark and the rest

the Torah......are you talking the book of moses where he is being buried - give me a break.

yes this thread can be closed as Follower is using basless conjucture.

I suggest you check Bart Ehramn and see your bible has not stood the test of time. Sorry to break it to you.

The test is in the Quran - produce something like that - not been done for 1400 years i dont see test like that in your bible.

bye.

 

[GreyKode]

Calmed down brother Zafran this is fun,
Mr Follower's theory : Prophet muhammed (pbuh) original teachings were about the trinity
and only when uthman came he recompiled the quran and distorted the teachings.

Everybody can see through your tactics:
Muslims say : Jesus(pbuh) preached ALLAH is one but Paul preached three.
Follower says : Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) preached ALLAH is three but Uthman says one.

 

[Zafran]

Calmed down brother Zafran this is fun,
Mr Follower's theory : Prophet muhammed (pbuh) original teachings were about the trinity
and only when uthman came he recompiled the quran and distorted the teachings.

Everybody can see through your tactics:
Muslims say : Jesus(pbuh) preached ALLAH is one but Paul preached three.
Follower says : Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) preached ALLAH is three but Uthman says one.

The hypocricy of follower is so evident its unreal - as his book says

Matthew 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?


so all the nonsense/conjucture in his post is evident - if he applied the same thing to his own gospel writers who didnt even claim to be prophets he would be in a mess.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Everybody can see through your tactics:
Muslims say : Jesus(pbuh) preached ALLAH is one but Paul preached three.
Follower says : Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) preached ALLAH is three but Uthman says one.

Finally someone who speaks the truth. Muslims do say that Jesus preach that Allah is one. And Muslims also say that Paul preached three. This is what Muslims say. Now, what does the Bible say? The Bible says that Jesus preached one God and that Paul preached one God. The Paul of the Bible never preached three anymore than Mohammed did.

By the way, according to Islam, how many names does the one God have? Do you not see the irony in objecting to Christians saying that the one God exists in three persons, but is yet just one being while proudly proclaiming that the one God has 99 names and is yet just one? I think you would object and say that we Christians don't really understand what you are saying or what Islam means if we went around accusing Mohammed of teaching worship of 99 gods because there are 99 different names for Allah. But this is exactly what you do when Islam mischaracterizes Christianity as teaching belief in 3 Gods. No where in the scriptures do they teach that. And even the theologians of later centuries did not say that, that is what people who have not understood what the theologians were actually saying have said they said, but it is not in fact what they were saying at all.

No Trinitarian believes in three gods. In fact the very concept of a polytheistic god of any sort is anathema to the correct understanding of any trinitarian theology. For the whole concept of the Trinity is exactly the opposite of that and is meant to affirm the oneness of God, even as we meet God in three unique and distinct persons known to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Therein lays one of my problems with the Qur'an and why I think it does not pass the test. It quite clearly states that Christians believe in three, but it is incorrect and shows that it misunderstands actual Christian beliefs when it makes that statement. If it is wrong in asserting what the basic beliefs of Christianity are, why should I trust it when it tells me that my faith is wrong. It doesn't reject the actual faith I have, but what it erroneously believes about Christianity. Well, I reject the Christianity that the Qur'an calls Christianity as well. However, that doesn't make Christianity false, but the Qur'an. For the Qur'an to stand the test it would have to state the truth with regard to those belief systems that it criticizes, but it does not. Rather it mis-states them.

 

[جوري]

By the way, according to Islam, how many names does the one God have? Do you not see the irony in objecting to Christians saying that the one God exists in three persons, but is yet just one being while proudly proclaiming that the one God has 99 names and is yet just one? I think you would object and say that we Christians don't really understand what you are saying or what Islam means if we went around accusing Mohammed of teaching worship of 99 gods because there are 99 different names for Allah. But this is exactly what you do when Islam mischaracterizes Christianity as teaching belief in 3 Gods. No where in the scriptures do they teach that. And even the theologians of later centuries did not say that, that is what people who have not understood what the theologians were actually saying have said they said, but it is not in fact what they were saying at all.

God has 99 names that we know of and that is the operative word.. they are the attributes of Allah swt -- such as, the most merciful, The Compassionate, The Beneficent, The Source of Peace, the Guardian of Faith, The Great Forgiver amongst many..Do any of those say Jesus? and the hovering spirit? each with its own will, one creator and one immolate(r) and one enunciation(or)? those aren't of his names or attributes so don't be a hypocrite Gene!
No one cares what you think passes the test or not, I believe the current state of Christianity is its own testament to how solid your bible and your ideology to the current climate and what is to come for Islam to re-instate the same would actually make it a false religion, such as your many other sects in Christianity who attest to the same ridiculous notion that God is divisible and ineffectual!

all the best

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Finally someone who speaks the truth. Muslims do say that Jesus preach that Allah is one. And Muslims also say that Paul preached three. This is what Muslims say. Now, what does the Bible say? The Bible says that Jesus preached one God and that Paul preached one God. The Paul of the Bible never preached three anymore than Mohammed did.

By the way, according to Islam, how many names does the one God have? Do you not see the irony in objecting to Christians saying that the one God exists in three persons, but is yet just one being while proudly proclaiming that the one God has 99 names and is yet just one? I think you would object and say that we Christians don't really understand what you are saying or what Islam means if we went around accusing Mohammed of teaching worship of 99 gods because there are 99 different names for Allah. But this is exactly what you do when Islam mischaracterizes Christianity as teaching belief in 3 Gods. No where in the scriptures do they teach that. And even the theologians of later centuries did not say that, that is what people who have not understood what the theologians were actually saying have said they said, but it is not in fact what they were saying at all.

No Trinitarian believes in three gods. In fact the very concept of a polytheistic god of any sort is anathema to the correct understanding of any trinitarian theology. For the whole concept of the Trinity is exactly the opposite of that and is meant to affirm the oneness of God, even as we meet God in three unique and distinct persons known to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Therein lays one of my problems with the Qur'an and why I think it does not pass the test. It quite clearly states that Christians believe in three, but it is incorrect and shows that it misunderstands actual Christian beliefs when it makes that statement. If it is wrong in asserting what the basic beliefs of Christianity are, why should I trust it when it tells me that my faith is wrong. It doesn't reject the actual faith I have, but what it erroneously believes about Christianity. Well, I reject the Christianity that the Qur'an calls Christianity as well. However, that doesn't make Christianity false, but the Qur'an. For the Qur'an to stand the test it would have to state the truth with regard to those belief systems that it criticizes, but it does not. Rather it mis-states them.

Well since the 99 names and attributes Question was answered hope you got that now lets talk about the trinity..The Trinity--The Trinitarian belief that God is Unity, subsisting in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--all three are one God, equal in power and glory--represents one of the most incredible, albeit crucial conceptions in all of Christendom.

Ingersoll probably summarized the Trinitarian enigma as well as anyone when he said,

"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity." (Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67).
"One may say with one's lips: 'I believe that God is one, and also three'--but no one can believe it, because the words have no sense." (What is Religion by Leo Tolstoy).
The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "pious fraud", and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

AND Islam totally rejects the Trinity. Allah says, in the Qur'an :
“ They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One Allah.” (Qur'an 5:73).
So, while Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam.In fact, the message of Islam, is so simple, that even a bedouin nomad could understand. Whereas, christianity is so nonsensical, that no christian understands it, not even Drs in theology.Is that not what you'd expect from the truth?
PS THE book you read says no man has ever seen God and that no man can see God and live Exodus 33;20 and John 1:18 guess what alot of people seen jesus

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ingersoll probably summarized the Trinitarian enigma as well as anyone when he said,

"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after.

If this is Ingersoll's summary, then Ingersoll does not understand the Trinity. The Son does not exist before he was begotten. He is begotten from before the beginning of time. There never is a time when the son was not. The son is eternal begotten of the father. Note I said "of the Father", not by the Father. The English term begotten is, in my opinion, a poor choice of words for it implies biological generation, which is not what is meant by the original Greek word used to describe the unique relationship between the Father and Son. But surely for as long as the Father has existed there has also been the Son, for without the existence of the Son there could not be said to exist a Father, for God could not rightly be described as a Father if there were no Son for him to be considered the Father of. Thus if one is eternal in nature and being, then both must be.

Tolstoy is also wrong in saying that no one can believe it, for indeed many do. That the words have no sense to him does not mean that they can have no sense for others.

As to the suggestion that 1 John 5:7 is a pious fraud, I heartily concur that the reference to the "Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost" as found in the KJV was not a part of the original text. But that doesn't mean that the concepts that led to the formulation of the doctrine are not present in the scriptures. It is not a particular phraseology on which the trinitarian understanding of God is based, it is on the whole tenor and record of scripture which presents to us very clearly that there is just one God and yet as the New Testament records, mono-theistic thinking Jewish-Christians discovered that they had experienced God not only as their Father, but in the person of Jesus and the indwelling of the God's Spirit. And in their attempt to articulate who both could be true at the same time, they articulated what we today call the Trinity. But it wasn't that they read the words saying this was so, but that they had the live experience of it being so and then wrote about it as they shared their faith story.

If others have not shared in that experience, you are not under cumpulsion to accept that it is that way. It is just our testimony of our experience, and nothing more. This is what we know of God from having met him in these three persons. But if do not have not had that experience with him, he is nonetheless the same God. And neither knowledge nor lack of knowledge about the Trinity, neither confession of nor lack of confession of the Trinity, central as it is to Christian teaching, is going to make the difference in someone's salvation.

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

so are the 3 3 differnt or one