Muslim mother excluded from school parents' evening for wearing veil

[Uthman]

Jewel Raid Gang Wore Burkhas

 

[Uthman]

Hmm, what if the school said it had a different opinion on the compulsury status of the niqab and hence didn't think it necessary to let the woman in?

From an Islamic perspective, that wouldn't be acceptable grounds upon which to deny her entry. We do not shun those who hold a different opinion than us.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Would you apply that ^ to a student who wears the niqab?

Rules are easily abused, there are several examples, why should the niqab especially make a greater danger than the other dangers?

What if the person is identified and given some kind of badget prooving and visible to the people, should this person be allowed to enter the building?

Schoolchildren shouldn't wear the niqab, and unless the chool is islamic the niqab should be repalced with a hijab. If the parents don't comply the child should either have her niqab replaced with a hijab wihtout parental consent or expelled, depending on the avilability of islamic schools nearby. The same goes for university students.
That's my opinion, I said niqab creates isolation and is bad for community cohesion and the society as a whole and from what I've learned here this is a good enough reason for banning things

 

[Whatsthepoint]

From an Islamic perspective, that wouldn't be acceptable grounds upon which to deny her entry. We do not shun those who hold a different opinion than us.

Any difference in opinion or just the minor differences within Islam?

 

[crayon]

Oh, just something I realized about this issue:
A woman can wear a head abaya, burqa, whatever without covering her face.
This:

So if a woman wore that, while still showing her face, would it still be unacceptable? She could hide tons of stuff under there.

That's my opinion, I said niqab creates isolation and is bad for community cohesion and the society as a whole and from what I've learned here this is a good enough reason for banning things

How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Oh, just something I realized about this issue:
A woman can wear a head abaya, burqa, whatever without covering her face.
This:

So if a woman wore that, while still showing her face, would it still be unacceptable? She could hide tons of stuff under there.



How did you come to this conclusion?

I don't think abaya is that good but most certainly better than anything that covers the face.
Well first, only people a woman chooses can see her face, that probably excludes every non-mahram men, as well as every non-Muslim woman.
And this world is based on eye contact, facial contact and expression, shaking hands etc. A perfectly healthy person avoiding all these is simply wrong.

 

[crayon]

What's wrong with the abaya? Why don't you like it? Just because it does not agree with your typical image of what a woman should look like?

"only people a woman chooses can see her face, that probably excludes every non-mahram men, as well as every non-Muslim woman."
Yes to the first part, no to the second.
Why is this a bad thing?
Some women don't mind being completely undressed in front of dozens of people. Some will only be undressed around their boyfriend, some only around their husbands. Women choose who to display their body to. Why should a woman in niqab be denied that choice? Why is her choice considered "simply wrong"?

"this world is based on eye contact, facial contact and expression"
So I'm guessing blind people are not considered normal, and can never lead healthy lives, right?

"A perfectly healthy person avoiding all these is simply wrong."
Says who? Says you. Unfortunately it is not up to you to decide what is "wrong" and what is not, each person can decide for themselves.

 

[Al-Zaara]

Unfortunately it is not up to you to decide what is "wrong" and what is not, each person can decide for themselves.

Fortunately. Just corrected. Good post, mashaAllah.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

What's wrong with the abaya? Why don't you like it? Just because it does not agree with your typical image of what a woman should look like?

"only people a woman chooses can see her face, that probably excludes every non-mahram men, as well as every non-Muslim woman."
Yes to the first part, no to the second.
Why is this a bad thing?
Some women don't mind being completely undressed in front of dozens of people. Some will only be undressed around their boyfriend, some only around their husbands. Women choose who to display their body to. Why should a woman in niqab be denied that choice? Why is her choice considered "simply wrong"?

"this world is based on eye contact, facial contact and expression"
So I'm guessing blind people are not considered normal, and can never lead healthy lives, right?

"A perfectly healthy person avoiding all these is simply wrong."
Says who? Says you. Unfortunately it is not up to you to decide what is "wrong" and what is not, each person can decide for themselves.

Abaya poses saftey concern, niqab poses even greater safety concern (due to the lack of facial visibility) as well as creates separation and isolation.
Technically it's the legislatior who decides and hence the majority. Democracy, cln.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Fortunately. Just corrected. Good post, mashaAllah.

Unfortunalety as angry talk.

 

[crayon]

Abaya poses saftey concern, niqab poses even greater safety concern (due to the lack of facial visibility) as well as creates separation and isolation.
Technically it's the legislatior who decides and hence the majority. Democracy, cln.

Dude, you're just repeating yourself, this conversation is going nowhere.

Yes, democracy. You know, I think under a democracy, people are allowed to wear what they want? Or has there been made a "must show __ cm of flesh" amendment?

"You may wear any eat anything in the world, as long as it's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich".
So much for democracy.

I'm done, good day to you.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Dude, you're just repeating yourself, this conversation is going nowhere.

Yes, democracy. You know, I think under a democracy, people are allowed to wear what they want? Or has there been made a "must show __ cm of flesh" amendment?

"You may wear any eat anything in the world, as long as it's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich".
So much for democracy.

I'm done, good day to you.

In all europan countries niqab is not an issue, excpet for French schools I guess and this particular incident.
but I've realized multiculturalism isn't the best system and thats why I am against niqab among other things.

 

[Keltoi]

I can see both sides, but I tend to side with the school in this case. Yes, an option would have been identifying the mother and then placing a visitor's badge on her or something like that. However, I believe the school is right in not allowing people whose faces are hidden to walk around the campus. The school has many children to worry about, and if a student was killed or taken by an individual whose face was hidden but was allowed inside...surely you can see the problem with that.

 

[Thinker]

Once upon a time in a all white school you'd take a black mother into to halls to meet the teachers, so that the white parents wouldn't have to see her. They gave excuses and explanations then. Today we give other reasons, we all say they are justified more or less. I wonder what people will think of us in 50-100 years from now?

Come on get real!! They hid the parent!! did they also hide the black child from the white children so they wouldn’t tell their mother’s that there was a black kid in the school. Incredible – where do you get this stuff from?

Our culture, indigenous people. If only one would realize, there's very, very little "indigenous" about today's majority races and people. Many cultures were man-created not too long ago, when there was need for a different kind of unity which had not been met before. Think about this.

I think you’re getting mixed up with what is an indigenous people and what is culture. The population size of the UK is about 61 million, in addition to that there are approximately 2 million foreigners there and there is also about 2 million Muslims some of whom are citizens and some of whom are not. The 59 million indigenous people are exactly that. They are a mongrel race; the original Celtic tribes were first enslaved by the Romans, then the Vikings slaughtered and plundered, next the Saxons, then the Normans. The genes of the indigenous people are a mixture of all these peoples; their culture is a mixture of cultures of all those people. The genes and culture is a mixture because the native people and the conquering nations integrated. The phenomina of setting up enclaves of segragated cultures like those seen in Bradford and Leicester is a something which has only occurred in the past 50 years or so. Segragation (in my opinion) leads to suspicion, mistrust and intolerance.

 

[crayon]

I can see both sides, but I tend to side with the school in this case. Yes, an option would have been identifying the mother and then placing a visitor's badge on her or something like that. However, I believe the school is right in not allowing people whose faces are hidden to walk around the campus. The school has many children to worry about, and if a student was killed or taken by an individual whose face was hidden but was allowed inside...surely you can see the problem with that.

I agree Keltoi, it was a tough decision for the school to make.
But the thing is, this isn't just some isolated incident; this is laying the groundwork for more things like it to come.
First niqab is banned from schools, then from workplaces, then on public transport, like buses and subways. Eventually it gets to the point when it's banned altogether, when a woman walking down the street in a niqab poses a safety hazard to the community.

It is not the niqab that creates isolation, it is people's reactions to it, attitudes towards it, and pre-decided opinions about it.

 

[Uthman]

Any difference in opinion or just the minor differences within Islam?

Good question. My answer to your previous question was actually based on this story:

Imam Abu Hanifah was once praying behind Imam Malik. Imam Malik was of the opinion that one should raise their hands before and after the Ruku' position. Imam Abu Hanifah was not of this opinion.

They both prayed and Imam Malik was raising his hands before and after Ruku' whereas Imam Abu Hanifah didn't do this.

After the prayer, Imam Abu Hanifah joked to Imam Malik that "you were flapping your hands so much, I thought you would fly!"

Imam Malik responded that "I thought you had already flown away the first time you raised your hands!".

The above story shows the attitude that we should have towards those who hold a different opinion. However, it is a minor theological difference of opinion (both of which have a firm basis) so I'm not sure whether the same approach can be used for any difference of opinion. So I will have to answer your second question with a response that perhaps more of us should use on this board:

I don't know.

 

[Al-Zaara]

Come on get real!! They hid the parent!! did they also hide the black child from the white children so they wouldn’t tell their mother’s that there was a black kid in the school. Incredible – where do you get this stuff from?

Lots of stuff have happened which you don't know or haven't heard about, sorry to say that's a true story. But mind you, that's the same question I ask myself when reading your posts about Islam and Muslims.

I think you’re getting mixed up with what is an indigenous people and what is culture.
.... The genes and culture is a mixture because the native people and the conquering nations integrated.

No, I'm not mixing. This is exactly what I meant. Today's 'indigenous' had lots of changes, they will most probably change once again.

Not angry talk, liberal and updated talk.

 

[Thinker]

I wrote in an earlier post in this thread about the impressions niqab wearing Muslims have on the indeginous populations view of Islam. Read here of such an example and tell me why you think this lady should have been allowed to keep her job?

A teaching assistant who refused to remove her Muslim veil in the classroom has been sacked. . . . .

Mrs Azmi did not wear the veil when she was interviewed for the Headfield post, nor at her first training day, but problems arose soon after she started work on a one-year fixed contract last September. Although the school’s other female Muslim teachers wore a headscarf, Mrs Azmi insisted on wearing the niqab.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article649482.ece

 

[Al-Zaara]

I hate it when they state niqab as only 'veil', I can't get out did she wear a veil/headscarf at all when first meeting or did she wear the headscarf until the change to niqab?

 

[Al-Zaara]

You should understand why I asked that, when reading my post here.

The children didn't like her it seems. Who knows, maybe not even the staff liked her.

“it was readily apparent that the children were seeking visual clues from her which they could not obtain because they could not see her facial expressions” - Huh? How? You know, like once upon a time my neighbours, the Italians, hands do the job. She went from hijab to niqab, it's bound to be different, not for only the outsiders but herself!

"second language", "it’s very clear that her wearing the veil in the classroom inhibits her ability to support children.” - Meaning? This is all quite relative. She didn't fit the way to support the children into the British culture, maybe?

Didn't they hear well? She could have raised her voice if they would have told her to, honestly it is not that hard. Was she not a good teacher, or were the children prejudiced about her and made her an outcast thus only deepening their dislike/negative feelings about her? Was she herself not comfortable with the niqab, suddenly infront of youngsters? Was she shy? Did the school find the "Taliban-style" destroyed further repuatation and thus couldn't keep her?

You want me to tell you why this lady would have kept her job. From experience, I had to stand a horrendous teacher for over a year until change, not that there weren't enough teachers out there, but that the school staff found it important to give this person a real chance. I, along with majority of the students, disliked him as a teacher but were still OK with dealing with him 'cause it showed fairness. I think she should have gotten time to adjust herself into the role, same goes to the staff and children.

The woman did wrong in not telling her authorities about this drastic change, specially if she was the only one. This quite critical to ensure trust and get a real chance to prove oneself, whether it is about a face-veil or having problems at home, as a teacher has a tough post 'cause day after day your problems and happiness and whatnot will show and it will effect several people.