Is this really the way GOD commands death?

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So you are saying that those that produce the explanations of the verses from Mohammd are prophets and messangers?


They study the Qur'an, and the Prophets life and the way of his companions to come to conclusions. That's why they are called 'ulama (people of knowledge) - since they talk based on knowledge.
 
Follower why are you against our religion when we are not against yours?
 
salaam
I'm not sure what your getting at? peace

I was simply enlightening the Muslim lady 'Light of Heaven' whose knowledge of Islam appears wanting; she said . . . . I like how people say Uthman(ra) burned other "versions" of the Qur'an when BURNING them would be the biggest disrespect EVER to the words of Allah. Claiming that a companion did this is makes me laugh really...there is only one Qur'an.
 
^ where's the proof a companion burned it?
 
So you are saying that those that produce the explanations of the verses from Mohammd are prophets and messangers?

Obviously not. How exactly did you read that from what I said?

Explaining the Qur'an is what Prophet Muhammad did, regardless of who later conveyed what he said to others.

People who have studied the Qur'an in depth are obviously going to be more knowledgeable about it than those who have not, and whose knowledge of it, is confined to the cherry-picking of ayats. This is why, when questions arise, people should consult with those who are knowledgeable.

The best tafsir (exegesis) is the explanation of the Qur'an by the Qur'an. Many of the questions which may arise out of a certain passage of the Qur'an have their explanation in other parts of the very same book, and often there is no need to turn to any sources other than the word of Allah, which in itself contains tafsir.

If it isn't explained in the Qur'an, then the next best source, would be the explanation of the Qur'an by Prophet Muhammad. There are numerous examples of explanations of the Qur'an by the Prophet, who either himself asked the Angel Gabriel for explanations of matters not clear to him, or who was asked by the Companions about the Qur'an.

If it isn't in either source, then the next step, would be to refer to the reports of the Sahabah. Then, for further clarification, consider the reports of the Tabi'un.

Ultimately though, none of these sources match the explanation of the Qur'an by the Qur'an itself, and by the Prophet.

For further information on this:

Interpreting the Text
 
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^ where's the proof a companion burned it?

Proof = Bukhari (6:61:510) but why do you ask for proof, the suggestion that the originals were destroyed by fire is (I believe) uncontested in Islam. It is a subject which has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads on this forum together with the questions; Why was it destroyed and Why are there no original copies of Uthman’s version.

Again a surprising example of a lack of knowledge of the origins of your own religion! I am starting to form the view that most Muslims attend some form of religious instruction where they learn whatever they are taught and never research or study Islam beyond that. That’s not surprising, I attended a christen school and I am sure that 99% of my fellow students never looked beyond the Christian instruction they received there. But then the internet did not exist then.

I am often castigated for using the internet as a research tool and I have often read derisory remarks here about using the net for that purpose (of course I have a copy of the Qu’ran which I have read and to which I continually refer). Members here have suggested I should consult with a scholar at my local mosque as a source of research. My problem with that is that is, I have no confidence that scholar A is going to give a truer interpretation than scholar B and I have every reason to think that the scholar might shield me from the difficult questions as appears to have happened with Yanal and Light of Heaven here.

Don’t shoot the messenger
 
For further information on this:

Interpreting the Text

Thank you for the link I have glanced through it an will study it later.

Regarding the below . . . . . . . . . .

Tafsîr bi-l-riwâya

By this is meant all explanations of the Qur'ân which can be traced back through a chain of transmission to a sound source, i.e.:

The Qur'ân itself.

The explanation of the Prophet.

The explanation by Companions of the Prophet (to some extent).


I presume 'The explanation by Companions of the Prophet' are the hadith can you explain 'to some extent?'


Thanks
 
"Why would the Qur'an be in chronological order, when it isn't a story book, and doesn't follow any traditional literary style in communicating its message?"

It would help put the vague verses in context.


Based on what? What do you base this assertion on?

Of course not any scholarly studies as such an attempt was quite popular in early twentieth century orientalist circles. The result was an incoherant mess.

A.J. Arberry wrote a very enlightening criticism of this approach in his "The Koran Interpreted".
 
Again a surprising example of a lack of knowledge of the origins of your own religion! I am starting to form the view that most Muslims attend some form of religious instruction where they learn whatever they are taught and never research or study Islam beyond that. That’s not surprising, I attended a christen school and I am sure that 99% of my fellow students never looked beyond the Christian instruction they received there. But then the internet did not exist then.


This isnt realy exclusive to any particluar religious group - if you look at the
majority of the poeple in the world they just follow the society, family, religion they are born into - very few people go and research about other traditions and cultures and campare them with there own tradition. Some people dont even know there own traditon and follow people blindly.

Every soceity/nation or religion have people that follow the religion/ world view just because they were born in that family, race, area, country etc. Its just a common human trait IMO.

Only very few people think outside the box.

so to think its exclusive to muslims or even christains is heavily narrow.
 
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Thank you for the link I have glanced through it an will study it later.

Regarding the below . . . . . . . . . .

Tafsîr bi-l-riwâya

By this is meant all explanations of the Qur'ân which can be traced back through a chain of transmission to a sound source, i.e.:

The Qur'ân itself.

The explanation of the Prophet.

The explanation by Companions of the Prophet (to some extent).


I presume 'The explanation by Companions of the Prophet' are the hadith can you explain 'to some extent?'


Thanks


The companions had the best knowledge of the revelation since they lived with the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) So they would ask him questions in regard to the revelation, so he would inform them. Furthermore they would come to certain conclusions based on understanding of what was mentioned in the Qur'an and the Prophetic sayings (authentic hadith/Sunnah).
 
The companions had the best knowledge of the revelation since they lived with the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) So they would ask him questions in regard to the revelation, so he would inform them. Furthermore they would come to certain conclusions based on understanding of what was mentioned in the Qur'an and the Prophetic sayings (authentic hadith/Sunnah).

Hi,

Yes I figured that out; it appears to me that the sahâba are the companions and the tâbicûn are others who had direct conversation with a companion. So does it then follow that the hadith can only come from a sahâba or a tâbicûn? And it would seem to logically follow that an hadith from a sahâba would be more reliable than an hadith from a tâbicûn? So why in the link provided by muslimapoclyptc does it say “The explanation by Companions of the Prophet (to some extent)” i.e.hadith from sahâba is only relied upon ‘to some extent?’
 
Hi,

Yes I figured that out; it appears to me that the sahâba are the companions and the tâbicûn are others who had direct conversation with a companion. So does it then follow that the hadith can only come from a sahâba or a tâbicûn? And it would seem to logically follow that an hadith from a sahâba would be more reliable than an hadith from a tâbicûn? So why in the link provided by muslimapoclyptc does it say “The explanation by Companions of the Prophet (to some extent)” i.e.hadith from sahâba is only relied upon ‘to some extent?’


A hadith which is authentic is a statement of the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (peace be upon him), which was heard by his companions - who themselves could write the hadith down - or could memorise it with a strong memorisation and pass it onto their students (the tabi'een/tabi'un).

They could also record it or memorise it thoroughly [their life was based on memorisation, and implementation of Qur'an and Ahadith] and pass it onto their students too. It was these students which recorded them in the massive books of hadith such as Sahih Al Bukhari, Sahih Al Muslim etc.



On the issue of the explanations of the companions. Let me give you an example.


Abu Sa’id al-Khudri narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) said:

“Indeed, you will follow the practices of those who came before you - handspan by handspan, armspan by armspan - to the point that if they follow the lizard into its hole, you would follow them in this.”


We [the companions] said: “O Messenger of Allah, are you referring to the Jews and Christians?” He replied: “Who else?”

[Reported by Ahmad, al-Bukhari, and Muslim]


Now this is a Prophecy which we know has already occurred and will continue to occur till the final hour.


But there are statements which the companions of the Prophet also said, based on their understanding of the hadith mentioned above.

10 - al-Walid said that he was walking with Abyad, one of the Companions of the Prophet, to visit a friend:

“So, we entered the mosque, and we saw the people praying. I said: “Praise be to Allah who has caused Islam to unite white and black people!” So, Abyad said: “By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, the Day of Resurrection will not come until you adopt some practices of every religion.”

I said: “Will this be because people will leave Islam?”

He replied: “They will pray like you pray, they will sit in your gatherings, they will live amongst you, and they will adopt some of the practices of every religion.”"


[Reported by 'Abdan in the book 'as-Sahabah']


http://iskandrani.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/following-the-practices-of-the-kuffar



We see this clearly in the world today, and even throughout our Islamic history if you study it.


There's more similar reports narrated by other companions of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).


Now since they had the most fear of lying about Allah and His Messenger without knowledge, they would think a great deal before making some statement about Allah's religion. When they did narrate, we could accept them statements - but if there was to be an authentic hadith which contradicted a statement of a companion - then the hadith would be taken as the real authority.

Why could there be a contradiction between them two? Because it may have been that a companion was not present when the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) spoke about the issue from another perspective, and the companion may have only heard one of his sayings concerning the issue. The companions who had heard the different sayings of the Prophet could correct the one who had only heard one statement. They would discuss, and come to conclusions after gathering all the evidences.



So since the companions were all sincere, and true believers. They would not lie about Allah and His Messenger, but may have erred on an issue or two. They would be corrected if this was the case. Thats why their sayings would be relied on to the extent of what agreed with the revelation. Since the Qur'an and Sunnah/authentic ahadith take precedence over everything else.
 
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A hadith which is authentic is a statement of the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (peace be upon him), which was heard by his companions - who themselves could write the hadith down - or could memorise it with a strong memorisation and pass it onto their students (the tabi'een/tabi'un).

Thanks for the explanation
 
You said - Actually, a clear revelation from God does need explanation. That's what Prophets and Messengers are for. I thought you meant that the explainers of an unclear revelation were prophets.

A clear message needs no explanation.

Hadith or not?:

Sahih Hadith of Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509: Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Quran (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yamama and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost.
 
...
A clear message needs no explanation.
''I like apples. ''
That is a clear message but requires an explanation as to why I have revealed it. Why have I revealed it?
A) To make a point (that clear messages DO need explanations!)
B) cus I'm hungry
C) I really do like apples. Big, greeny juicy ones. Sliced, seedless and sweet!

Hadith or not?:

Sahih Hadith of Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509: Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Quran (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yamama and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost.
What is the relevance of this hadith and/or the bolded part?
 
Every Muslim I know says that the Quran is so clear and yet you need all kinds of explanations and hadith to live as a Muslims. LOL!! There is even argument about what words mean.

What if the verses that would have made the Quran truly clear were in fact lost with the people in battle and when Uthman burned the various copies. We know Aisha mentions verses lost or that chapters were originally longer.

I believe there is more to Islam and people/Muslims are just skiming off the surface.

In the Holy Bible there is almost always deeper meaning/ life lesson, facts in verses/parables beyond the main thread of thought.

Why would GOD write such a rich and full Holy Books for Israel and Gentiles and not do the same for Mulims?
 
Every Muslim I know says that the Quran is so clear and yet you need all kinds of explanations and hadith to live as a Muslims. LOL!! There is even argument about what words mean.

Of course the Qur'an is clear. You are simply confusing clarity with encompassing every single detail. The Qur'an does not cover every single detail of everything. It covers what's important for it to cover. The extraneous details are covered, and are meant to be covered, in the tafsir of the Qur'an.

What if the verses that would have made the Quran truly clear were in fact lost with the people in battle and when Uthman burned the various copies. We know Aisha mentions verses lost or that chapters were originally longer.

I believe there is more to Islam and people/Muslims are just skiming off the surface.

'Uthman burned only what had already been copied and only what was recorded in different dialects besides the Qurayshi one. People dying in battles, is one of the reasons 'Uthman made the standard copy of the Qur'an.

As Allah says in the Qur'an, with regard to "lost verses":

2:106: We do not annul any of Our revelations nor let it be forgotten, unless We replace it with a better one, or (at least) the one similar to it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

In the Holy Bible there is almost always deeper meaning/ life lesson, facts in verses/parables beyond the main thread of thought.

Why would GOD write such a rich and full Holy Books for Israel and Gentiles and not do the same for Mulims?

That's if you believe God wrote the entirety of the Bible, instead of his words being scattered in it, here and there, with a few people inserting explanations in-between God's actual words.

There are always deeper meanings, etc. in God's words.
 
sending just a book to people wouldn't be fruitful I think. Moses had lots of trouble with his people. The golden calf and all that. Christianity without Jesus is even more impossible, considering he was the kalamullah, word of god.

Oh and, yes muslims are allowed to kill and sometimes ordered to kill people. turning the other cheek tends to cause problems.
 
one more thing. christians only have the "hadith" of jesus (as they claim) without the scripture. so claiming hadith is irrelevant when you yourself have only the hadith to go with, seems, I don't know... hypocritical?
 
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