Sharia law - do you really want it?

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:sl:


why the west REALLY doesn't want sharia:

Man who 'gutted' cat charged with felony
SEATTLE -- The man accused of brutally stabbing a cat that belongs to a South Seattle church has been charged.

Tracy A. Clark was charged Wednesday with first-degree animal cruelty for attacking Scat, the resident pet of the Cross Church & Discipleship Center.

Scat, who has been the pet therapy cat at the church at 1320 102nd Street Southwest for the past eight to 10 years, was found in the parking lot with several stab wounds, including a 7-inch gash on its side, according to the statement of probable cause. The feline also had three broken ribs and severe internal injuries.

Clark told deputies the cat attacked him first, forcing him to defend himself, the statement said. He said grabbed the cat by the throat and threw it against the wall. He also admitted to having stabbed Scat with his own knife.

Scat is in the intensive care unit at South Seattle Veterinary Hospital. Employee Lisa McCollough-Dutt said Scat was brought in in unbelievably poor shape.

"It makes me want to cry. Sheer horror...it's actually devastating to see a cat or anything brutally attacked," she said. "If they can do this to an animal, it makes you wonder what they can do to a human."

Clark, 47, said he had enrolled in rehabilitation at the church, which offers a full-time residential discipleship program for distressed men.

Another resident of the church told investigators Clark woke him up some time after he had gone to bed on Sunday night, and said he had "gutted the cat," the statement said.

A conviction for a felony animal abuse charge carries up to five years in prison.

Church members said when Scat first came to the church, he was very leery of people. But over time, he became more socialized and eventually grew into a lovable therapy cat.

Pasado's Safe Haven, a local non-profit animal rescue organization, has offered to cover all of Scat's medical expenses.

this loser probably deserves MORE than 5 years! :raging:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/43501217.html

HOWEVER....

if you've ever been to a Mariner's Game or a Sonic's Game or a Seahawk's game, you've probably heard a VERY melodic Tuba thumping and jumping, along with it's owner, Edward McMichael. he was a jovial man who only tried to lift people's spirits. what happened to Ed?:

Teens who beat 'Tuba Man' to death sentenced

SEATTLE - Three teens who beat to death Ed McMichael, better known as the "Tuba Man," were sentenced to 15-36 weeks in juvenile detention on Wednesday.

Kenneth Kelly, 15, Billy Chambers, 16, and Ja'Mari Jones, 16, will be given credit for the roughly 24 weeks they've already spent in custody.

The teens pleaded guilty April 3 to first-degree manslaughter in King County Juvenile Court. Because they are not legally adults, none could face a sentence longer than 72 weeks in juvenile detention.

Chambers and Jones were also sentenced to 36 weeks in detention for an unrelated robbery, and the two sentences were ordered to run consecutively.

McMichael, a beloved character on the Seattle scene who played his tuba outside many public events, was walking home near a bus stop on Seattle's Mercer Street last Oct. 25 when five teens attacked him. Police said the five kicked and beat him and tried to rob him.

Three suspects were caught, but two others ran off and still have not been found.

King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg said the names of convicted juveniles are not released in most criminal cases. But the suspects were identified in this case due to the high-profile nature of the crime, he said.

The killing was a traumatic event for many in the city of Seattle, where Tuba Man was a beloved fixture who played before and after sporting events and other performances. He was attacked outside the Opera House, literally in the shadow of the Space Needle.

There was a five-month delay in the case because no witnesses came forward to testify, even though it's believed that up to a dozen people saw the brutal attack last fall.

A police officer drove up to the scene and saw McMichael in the fetal position trying to protect himself. The officer was able to capture and arrest two of the attackers, but three others got away.

McMichael was treated at Harborview Medical Center and sent home. He was recovering at the Vermont Inn where he lived when he died two days later.

A third suspect was arrested days later.

At the sentencing hearing Wednesday, Jones was the only one of the three teens who chose to speak.

"I would like to apologize to the family and friends of Mr. Ed McMichael," he said.

But in his next breath he denied any involvement. "I did not participate in either of these horrific crimes that I plead to."

The Tuba Man's throaty notes were unmistakable presence in the city.

Since the early 1990s, McMichael had been a fixture outside Seattle sporting events and Seattle Opera performances, wearing funny hats and playing songs on his tuba he called "his baby."

After the Tuba Man was beaten, his brother Kelsey McMichael, who lives in Florida, came to Seattle to help him recover. Kelsey said Ed was simply not the same after the attack.

"He was definitely traumatized. The first thing he said to me when I knocked on his door was, 'I can't leave this room,'" he said.

In court Wednesday, Kelsey said at first he was very angry and wanted to see the teens punished severely.

"My feelings about the loss of my brother began to change as I began talking to reporters, Ed's former classmates, and fellow musicians," he said.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/43462667.html

so killing the "Tuba Man" carries less of a sentence than mauling a kitty. NOT only that, BUT the juvies got the EXACT SAME SENTENCE for robbery! :raging::raging:

conclusion, secularism is all about JUSTICE! :rollseyes

:w:
 
yeah, I can't really accept that notion. the same people saying that "shariah is not taliban" shouldn't say secularism the same practice everywhere.

besides, secularism has little to do with criminal laws.
hypothetically, a country could be secular and still follow sharia laws because they make sense to them.
 
....
conclusion, secularism is all about JUSTICE! :rollseyes

:w:
It's misguided. The aim is short term, not long term.

A rapist should have a harsher sentence than a theif. One crime is far greater than the other - simply locking the worst criminal up for a longer time than another is pointless. It translates to;

Person A stole a car got 4 years.
Person B raped a child and got 10.

Yeah sure the sentence is longer but its the same sentence. Plus, 10 years worth of tax payers (including either the victims or those related to them) money spent on keeping that rapist alive - somehow that doesn't quite cut the mustard.

At least with sharia, there are different types of punishment (limb cutting, execution, lashes, imprisonment) to suit the crime. 'Modern' day punishment is lame in comparison. Far too weak as a deterrant and doesn't carry enough of a punishment - whatever crime you commit, your punishment stays the same so the only difference between the crimes is time spent in the 'naughty corner'.
 
:sl:


let's see, where were we? oh yeah:

kill a guy, get 36 weeks.

harm a cat, get 1 1/2 to 5 years hard time

AND now:

Rape a 14 year old and get 1 year, as work release of course:

Ex-border official pleads guilty to child rape


By KOMO Staff & News Services
BELLINGHAM, Wash. - Joseph Giuliano, the former high-ranking Border Patrol official accused of having sex with a 14-year-old girl, changed his plea to guilty of third-degree child rape Thursday in Whatcom County Superior Court.

Chief Criminal Deputy Prosecutor Mac Setter said he’s recommending Giuliano serve one year in custody of the Whatcom County Jail on work release and three years of sexual deviancy treatment after that, the Bellingham Herald reported.

The paper also said the plea means Giuliano will have to register as a sex offender.

Giuliano was the No. 2 man in the local Border Patrol before he was arrested on suspicion of raping the high school girl, who was a friend of the family.

Police say Giuliano admits he had sex at least 24 times with the girl.

Setter alleged in court last October that Giuliano had sex with her for the last time on Oct. 13, after police had already visited the girl's high school and had told Giuliano that he was under investigation, at which time he denied anything was happening. Setter says later, the girl told police they had sex later that same night.

The victim told detectives she had been involved with Giuliano. She said they arranged meeting times by communicating through text messages. The two met in his car, in her bed and at his house, she said.

When questioned by detectives, Giuliano admitted to having had sexual intercourse with the victim on at least 24 different occasions, according to the statement of probable cause. He said their relationship began in April 2008 and continued until October.

At times, he told the girl it was wrong and feared he would get caught, the statement said.

The victim is not related to Giuliano, who is married. Setter says Giuliano's wife was not aware of the alleged abuse.

Giuliano had been a Border Patrol agent for more than 20 years and as deputy chief has overseen operations in Western Washington, Oregon and Alaska.
http://www.komonews.com/news/43580322.html

things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.

:w:
 
:sl:

let's see, where were we? oh yeah:
kill a guy, get 36 weeks.
harm a cat, get 1 1/2 to 5 years hard time
AND now:Rape a 14 year old and get 1 year, as work release of course:

http://www.komonews.com/news/43580322.html

things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.

:w:

Not sure in my own mind what point you are making here. The case you described is a terrible, unspeakable one and sadly one can read similar ones from all over the world.

So is this about a plea as to getting the punishment right, is that what you are saying?
 
:
Rape a 14 year old and get 1 year, as work release of course:

Ex-border official pleads guilty to child rape

By KOMO Staff & News Services
BELLINGHAM, Wash. - Joseph Giuliano, the former high-ranking Border Patrol official accused of having sex with a 14-year-old girl, changed his plea to guilty of third-degree child rape Thursday in Whatcom County Superior Court.

The victim told detectives she had been involved with Giuliano. She said they arranged meeting times by communicating through text messages. The two met in his car, in her bed and at his house, she said.

When questioned by detectives, Giuliano admitted to having had sexual intercourse with the victim on at least 24 different occasions, according to the statement of probable cause. He said their relationship began in April 2008 and continued until October.

Convicted of rape - and quite right too, a girl under the age of 16 years cannot consent to sexual intercourse which makes it rape, I wish that young girls received the same degree of protection in all the countries of the world and under all the legal systems of the world; I'm sure you'll agree with me on that?
 
yeah, I can't really accept that notion. the same people saying that "shariah is not taliban" shouldn't say secularism the same practice everywhere.

besides, secularism has little to do with criminal laws.
hypothetically, a country could be secular and still follow sharia laws because they make sense to them.

You have a point but if you examine Sharia (I am told) on almost any crime it has endless ways of avoiding doling out the harshest penalties and the Jurists rightly I think realised that law breaking and setting punishments was not always going to be, and never should be a simple back and white thing.
 
Convicted of rape - and quite right too, a girl under the age of 16 years cannot consent to sexual intercourse which makes it rape, I wish that young girls received the same degree of protection in all the countries of the world and under all the legal systems of the world; I'm sure you'll agree with me on that?

How about if both the boy and the girl are say 14, would it still be rape?, I mean is it still not consentual
 
Convicted of rape - and quite right too, a girl under the age of 16 years cannot consent to sexual intercourse which makes it rape, I wish that young girls received the same degree of protection in all the countries of the world and under all the legal systems of the world; I'm sure you'll agree with me on that?
I believe that perhaps you are confusing terms?..
Rape = to have sex against another's will-- you seem to confuse that with 'age of consent' or consenting to sex in general at any age!
for instance here in the civilized U.S.A in 1885-1914
American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen,

http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm


from the above you should infer a couple of things
1- age of consent isn't contingent on what a young woman desires for herself rather what the state desires for her.. this is of course evidenced that state law also allows BCP's to be passed to 11 year old girls

At the King Middle School in Portland, Maine, medical workers are allowed to give the girls as young as 11 birth control pills without their parents knowing about it.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303521,00.html

Now, given that I have seen in my career pregnant girls as young as 13, and on their own accord, I believe that consenting to sex and what you deem rape are completely separate issues.
As well age of consent differs from country to country, so what is perfect legal in Spain is considered rape in the United States.. is that hypocrisy do you think? I think it is!

.. Rape is to force yourself sexually on someone, both men and women can be guilty of it.. it goes against Islamic teaching, since Islam is in concert with 'fitrah' nature, the state of being. Everything that goes against fitrah goes against Islam.. it is a no brainer I don't even know why you bring it up?

A few posts ago I remember you saying you don't have girls, but if you did, you wouldn't impose anything on them, if they wanted to wear miniskirts or parade naked it is their decision..
well why is that OK? but not 'consenting' to sex at 14?
what is it about a 16 year old that makes her that much more mature than someone who is 15 in your mind?


all the best
 
what is it about a 16 year old that makes her that much more mature than someone who is 15 in your mind?

Exactly that's what I thought, I mean since a girl naturally can bear children at puberty then what is it(from Thinker's point of view ) that prevents a girl of 13 to have and enjoy sex with her partner.
 
Exactly that's what I thought, I mean since a girl naturally can bear children at puberty then what is it(from Thinker's point of view ) that prevents a girl of 13 to have and enjoy sex with her partner.


I am not an advocate of 13 or 16 year olds having sex or children, I believe that what is appropriate a century ago may not be today, but given the amounts of 11 year olds engaging in sex and getting abortions without their parents consent, I think it is really out of people's control.. what religion (Islam) actually does for this situation is impose guidelines, if you want to have sex at 11 then you have to have a certain criteria met
1- financial stability
2- getting married..
those two alone before any other are natural deterrents, since modern day 11 year olds are neither financially independent nor do they want to get married...

What I do frown upon however is the hypocrisy of defining what is legal and what isn't by state law what is rape and what is enjoyed sex.. I personally don't see any difference between 14 or 16 year olds, and I don't like for a culture that makes pornography (the ultimate humiliation and subjugation of women); legal, to dictate to any other society what is rape and what is consent least of which by such narrow definitions!


and Allah swt knows best

:w:
 
Assalamu alaikum sister Gossamer, thankyou for your reply.
I am not an advocate of 13 or 16 year olds having sex or children
Definitely me neither.
what religion (Islam) actually does for this situation is impose guidelines
Exactly, but I was referring to the situation in which Islam is not the rule, there can still be consent between individuals from both sides who are below the age of consent, and thus it should not be classified as rape.
 
Convicted of rape - and quite right too, a girl under the age of 16 years cannot consent to sexual intercourse which makes it rape, I wish that young girls received the same degree of protection in all the countries of the world and under all the legal systems of the world; I'm sure you'll agree with me on that?

let's see, the country in which the guy was working for, has laws that say the he can't have sex with a 13/14 year old. he DOES, AT LEAST 24 times, by his own admission.

he's caught, the RECOMMENDED punishment is 12 months of WORK RELEASE jail time! so, lets' see, that's 2 weeks of having to "go home to jail" each night after work FOR EACH RAPE!

and you're fine with that.

AND you would like to see this in [and i quote]: all the countries of the world and under all the legal systems of the world [end quote]!

2 weeks for rape, 36 for murder, 1.5 to 5 years for assaulting a cat...

i agree that MAYBE you are descended from an ape...

:w:
 
How about if both the boy and the girl are say 14, would it still be rape?, I mean is it still not consentual

What constitutes ‘rape’ is defined by the law of the country. In the UK (and I presume other western countries) whereas rape is defined as having sexual intercourse with a woman without her consent the law decrees that females below a certain age (16 years) have not developed sufficiently to make judgements on this issue and so cannot give consent. It goes further to describing different crimes for different age groups, so for example a 14 year old boy having sexual intercourse with a 14 year old girl is a different crime (statute) than a 35 year old man and a 14 year old girl.

All that’s interesting stuff but has got little to do with the remark I posted. Yusufnoor was favourably comparing sharia law with western law by drawing attention to what he suggested were unjust penalties for some crimes, he said . . “kill a guy, get 36 weeks; harm a cat, get 1 1/2 to 5 years hard time AND now Rape a 14 year old and get 1 year. In saying “rape a 14 year old and get one year” he made no reference to the mitigating circumstances i.e. that the man was having an affair with the 14 year and sex between them was consensual. In making the statement without reference to the mitigating circumstances (IMHO) is and implicit admission that sex with a minor is rape. Of course I have read all the posts on ‘under age’ marriage and my post . . “Convicted of rape - and quite right too, a girl under the age of 16 years cannot consent to sexual intercourse which makes it rape, I wish that young girls received the same degree of protection in all the countries of the world and under all the legal systems of the world; I'm sure you'll agree with me on that?” was a form of sarcasm and although sarcasm isn’t very nice, I felt he left himself wide open for it.
 
What constitutes ‘rape’ is defined by the law of the country. In the UK (and I presume other western countries) whereas rape is defined as having sexual intercourse with a woman without her consent the law decrees that females below a certain age (16 years) have not developed sufficiently to make judgements on this issue and so cannot give consent.

Do you not see any hypocrisy at all in that which you are selling above? given that I have shown you that Birth control pills are being handed out to 11 year olds in the civilized west? They haven't developed sufficiently to consent, but have developed sufficiently to take birth control (hormone) pills and have children without their parents consent?

It goes further to describing different crimes for different age groups, so for example a 14 year old boy having sexual intercourse with a 14 year old girl is a different crime (statute) than a 35 year old man and a 14 year old girl.
indeed, depending on the mood of the law maker given that no common sense goes at all into these decisions at least the way most view it!

All that’s interesting stuff but has got little to do with the remark I posted. Yusufnoor was favourably comparing sharia law with western law by drawing attention to what he suggested were unjust penalties for some crimes, he said . . “kill a guy, get 36 weeks; harm a cat, get 1 1/2 to 5 years hard time AND now Rape a 14 year old and get 1 year. In saying “rape a 14 year old and get one year” he made no reference to the mitigating circumstances i.e. that the man was having an affair with the 14 year and sex between them was consensual. In making the statement without reference to the mitigating circumstances (IMHO) is and implicit admission that sex with a minor is rape. Of course I have read all the posts on ‘under age’ marriage and my post . . “Convicted of rape - and quite right too, a girl under the age of 16 years cannot consent to sexual intercourse which makes it rape, I wish that young girls received the same degree of protection in all the countries of the world and under all the legal systems of the world; I'm sure you'll agree with me on that?” was a form of sarcasm and although sarcasm isn’t very nice, I felt he left himself wide open for it.

So a 14 year old can consent now?

all the best
 
Do you not see any hypocrisy at all in that which you are selling above? given that I have shown you that Birth control pills are being handed out to 11 year olds in the civilized west? They haven't developed sufficiently to consent, but have developed sufficiently to take birth control (hormone) pills and have children without their parents consent?

I agree. Any sub 16 year old female pregnancy has, de facto, contravened a criminal statute and should be recorded, investigated and the perpetrator should be punished according to the law. And, it follows that anyone assisting an offence is an accomplice to that crime (whether handing out birth control constitute assisting an offender I don’t know). Certainly it is the case that, In the UK, if the male ‘offender’ is about the same age of the female ‘victim’ and it is consensual, he is not prosecuted. I believe the reason given is ‘not in the public interest.’ If the male offender is 18 years and over he is prosecuted but has certain defences available to him, if he is over 23 years he has no defence and is prosecuted. Is there some hypocrisy there, I’m not sure but I’m not going to argue that there is not. The system is heavily weighted in trying to protect young girls from older men rather than teach young girls good morals; is that right, it’s a matter of opinion.
 
I agree. Any sub 16 year old female pregnancy has, de facto, contravened a criminal statute and should be recorded, investigated and the perpetrator should be punished according to the law. And, it follows that anyone assisting an offence is an accomplice to that crime (whether handing out birth control constitute assisting an offender I don’t know). Certainly it is the case that, In the UK, if the male ‘offender’ is about the same age of the female ‘victim’ and it is consensual, he is not prosecuted. I believe the reason given is ‘not in the public interest.’ If the male offender is 18 years and over he is prosecuted but has certain defences available to him, if he is over 23 years he has no defence and is prosecuted. Is there some hypocrisy there, I’m not sure but I’m not going to argue that there is not. The system is heavily weighted in trying to protect young girls from older men rather than teach young girls good morals; is that right, it’s a matter of opinion.


You'll forgive me as I think the system is designed to leech off hard working tax payers to foster the debauched life style of teenage W hores and the men who bed them under the guise of 'western freedom'
There is no reason for them to end up in the bed of a 14 or a 50 year old if they had proper moral/religious upbringing. And if they feel otherwise financially and sexually ready for that kind of commitment then they should be emancipated and married, paying their debt to society as the rest of folks who wait until they have a career and some money to do so..

As for BCP's that are being handed out to children, well that too is a state decision to try to curb another problem being unwanted pregnancies.
That is actually what happens when you bypass morality and God's law, you tweak from the left and something goes wrong from the right, you tweak right and something goes wrong from the left. Until such a time folks implement sharia3a fully they'll continue to have these problems. Unwanted pregnancies, high STD rates, and all kinds of folks bedding all kinds of folks under whatever age, and leeching off others to support their habits, and I quote the lawyer who defended the incestuous relationship between a brother and sister in Germany who went off to have several kids of incest.. 'who are we to define what a family unit is'!

all the best
 
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