Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Hi Grey Kode:

Let us not run ahead of ourselves. I promise you that we will discuss the Holy Spirit; however, let us first discuss Jesus. So, can we assume that we have harmony thus far and can therefore proceed a bit further?

Regards,
Grenville

ok lets talk about Jesus who is Jesus?
did he die?

 

[Grace Seeker]

ok lets talk about Jesus who is Jesus?
did he die?

Physically, yes. Spiritually, no.


Though, since he came back to life again, some might argue that he only appeared to die for he is still alive today. I wonder if that might be what 4:157 is trying to say: "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."? I know that all of the Islamic scholars suggest that this means that Jesus was never even put on a cross, but why is that the way this passage is read? Doesn't it also fit that it is saying that while it looked to those who saw Jesus on the cross that he had died, the reality is that he didn't, that it only appeared that way, for he still is alive today?

Yes, death and the devil thought they had won on that day, certainly it appeared that way to them. But the truth is that death had not defeated Jesus. Rather, Jesus was about to show that he had power even over death. It seems to me that this sort of understanding of the passage is entirely consistent with what is actually on the page of the Qur'an, even if it doesn't fit the last 1200 years of Islamic theology.

Notice, I am not saying that the Qur'an is wrong. Only that the interpretation that humans have made from it does not do justice to what the Qur'an actually says. Yet, I also recognize that I am reading it in English and not Arabic. I can understand if you say that the Arabic does not allow for my proposal. But just reading the English, I have always wondered why Muslims reject the crucifixion based on this passage. I don't see it say that it didn't happen, only that it didn't have the results that those observing thought it did.

 

[Imam]

Thank you Grace-seeker finally I get a direct verse for discussion

I wonder if that might be what 4:157 is trying to say: "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."?

I know that all of the Islamic scholars suggest that this means that Jesus was never even put on a cross, but why is that the way this passage is read?

because it says what it means and means what it says (Jesus never ever been put on a cross)... let alone be killed.

Yes, death and the devil thought they had won on that day

If he died even for five minutes then death had won on that day.

But the truth is that death had not defeated Jesus.

Which Jesus ?
If the physical ,then death had defeated him that day he died on the cross.

If the spiritual ,death never defeated the spiritual Jesus neither any other spiritual being.

Notice, I am not saying that the Qur'an is wrong.

I'm sure I understand your post ... you try to render the meaning of the verse as:

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they killed his spirit not nor crucified his spirit .

If that is the message of the verse then ,we already knew that none ever could crucify nor kill a spirit either Jesus or anyone else.


What if the Quran says: (They killed him and crucified him)

details in next posts inshallah.

peace

 

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

You asked two questions. One of which we had already introduced. First, you asked “Who is Jesus?”

I had already noted that both the Bible and the Qur’an explicitly teach that Jesus is:
• a Servant and Prophet of God; (Bible: Matthew 12:15–18, 13:57/ Qur’an: 19:30, 34)
• born of the virgin Mary; (Luke 1:30–35/3:45–47)
• led by the Holy Spirit; (Luke 4:18–19/2:87)
• a Preacher of the Gospel; (Mark 1:14–15/5:46)
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead; (Matthew 4:23, John 12:1/ 5:110) and
• the Christ or Messiah. (John 4:25–26/3:45)

You will note that I have provided evidence from the Gospel and the Qur’an only.

Then you asked whether Jesus died? I can give you the Islamic or Christian religious traditional answer and I can guarantee you that they will never be reconciled. Therefore, let us simply provide the information from the Bible and the Qur’an as before.

The Bible teaches that Jesus died (John 19:33), and was raised from the dead (John 21:14). The Qur’an also teaches that Jesus died and was raised from the dead.

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)​

The only two groups that dispute this statement are those who wish to defend, not the truth in the Bible or the Qur’an, but Jewish and Islamic religious traditions.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Dear Gossamer:

We have one life to live. Therefore, we should be actively seeking more of the Truth. Jesus spoke the truth of reconciling persons to God and each-other, and He was persecuted for this message. Mohammed came preaching a similar message of being reconciled to God and each other, and he was also persecuted.

You stated “Yes there are very superficial similarities between the Quran and what preceded it.. but that quickly dissolves since the core principles are completely at odds with each other”

Dear Gossamer, this is simply incorrect. The core principles are in harmony. Have you not read the article that I referred you to titled The Audacity of Hope? It is the audacity of hoping that Christians will realise the reconciliation taught by Jesus, and Muslims will realize the reconciliation taught by Mohammed.

Gossamer, please follow me for a brief moment. The available evidence supports the views that:

1. Mohammed was a prophet sent by the God of Abraham with a message of reconciliation between God and man (man to include male and female) and between man and man.

2. Mohammed was sent to execute God’s judgement on the surrounding nations, and he provided instructions to his followers on how to behave during this period.

3. After Mohammed’s death, the Qur’an was compiled in a non-chronological order which mixed these two separate and distinct messages.

4. The Qur’an as compiled has a very useful purpose. You must be disciplined to get through the long initial chapters, and there is a certain beauty about the ordering according to length. I appreciate the beautiful picture that results. However, as beautiful as it is, that was not the intended picture, for the revelation came in a chronological order.

5. Therefore, the Qur’an as compiled can be likened to a jigsaw puzzle whose pieces have been placed according to their size. This results in a beautiful artistic work. However, if you could order the pieces as intended, chronologically, then a different picture is revealed.​

The problem is that although it is well known that the Qur’an is not ordered in accordance with how Mohammed received the revelation, some see it as an unforgivable sin punishable with eternal punishment in the fires of hell, for daring to even think of looking at the chronologically ordered picture of the Qur’an. Why is that Gossamer, why is that?

Regards,
Grenville

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)​

The only two groups that dispute this statement are those who wish to defend, not the truth in the Bible or the Qur’an, but Jewish and Islamic religious traditions.

Regards,
Grenville

And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
This is his affirmation that `he is a worshipper of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, and that he is a creature created by Allah. He (`Isa) will live, die and be resurrected, just like the other creatures that Allah has created.
Not that he died but he will the angel of death will take his soul one day Allah knows best after he returns and kills Dajjal and fulfill what is for him to finish
(157. And because of their saying, "We killed Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'' but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared as that to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not.)Quran 4 157

 

[Imam]

Hi Imam:

I had already noted that both the Bible and the Qur’an explicitly teach that Jesus is:
• a Servant and Prophet of God; (Bible: Matthew 12:15–18, 13:57/ Qur’an: 19:30, 34)
• born of the virgin Mary; (Luke 1:30–35/3:45–47)
• led by the Holy Spirit; (Luke 4:18–19/2:87)
• a Preacher of the Gospel; (Mark 1:14–15/5:46)
• a Healer who healed the sick and raised the dead; (Matthew 4:23, John 12:1/ 5:110) and
• the Christ or Messiah. (John 4:25–26/3:45)

Hi Grenville
I agree with the previous lines with some exceptions , the terms (Holy spirit&The promised Messiah)as the Quran defines the term Holy spiritin different way.

The Qur’an also teaches that Jesus died and was raised from the dead.

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I shall die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)​

First : The verse is a statement by the child Jesus that there was peace on him the day he was born and will be peace on him the day he WILL die and the day he WILL be resurrected ..... in the future .

second: If God inspired the child Jesus ,of peace on him the day shall he die and instead he got tortured and crucified that day,then God simply made a false promise to him....
As a matter of fact such verse predicts the safety for Jesus Peace be upon him from the attempts to kill him.
..............................................

peace

 

[جوري]

Gossamer:

We have one life to live. Therefore, we should be actively seeking more of the Truth. Jesus spoke the truth of reconciling persons to God and each-other, and He was persecuted for this message. Mohammed came preaching a similar message of being reconciled to God and each other, and he was also persecuted.

Indeed...

[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:1] Their reckoning draweth nigh for mankind, while they turn away in heedlessness.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:2] Never cometh there unto them a new reminder from their Lord but they listen to it while they play,[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:3] With hearts preoccupied. And they confer in secret. The wrong-doers say: Is this other than a mortal like you? Will ye then succumb to magic when ye see (it)?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:4] He saith: My Lord knoweth what is spoken in the heaven and the earth. He is the Hearer, the Knower.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:5] Nay, say they, (these are but) muddled dreams; nay, he hath but invented it; nay, he is but a poet. Let him bring us a portent even as those of old (who were Allah's messengers) were sent (with portents).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:6] Not a township believed of those which We destroyed before them (though We sent them portents): would they then believe?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:7] And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:8] We gave them not bodies that would not eat food, nor were they immortals.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:9] Then we fulfilled the promise unto them. So we delivered them and whom We would, and We destroyed the prodigals.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:10] Now We have revealed unto you a Scripture wherein is your Reminder. Have ye then no sense?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:11] How many a community that dealt unjustly have We shattered, and raised up after them another folk![/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:12] And, when they felt Our might, behold them fleeing from it![/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:13] (But it was said unto them): Flee not, but return to that (existence) which emasculated you and to your dwellings, that ye may be questioned.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:14] They cried: Alas for us! we were wrong-doers.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:15] And this their crying ceased not till We made them as reaped corn, extinct.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:16] We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:17] If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:18] Nay, but We hurl the true against the false, and it doth break its head and lo! it vanisheth. And yours will be woe for that which ye ascribe (unto Him).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:19] Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who dwell in His presence are not too proud to worship Him, nor do they weary;[/SIZE][/FONT]

[Media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKduRsd6Zd0[/Media]​

Your take home message from the above verses, is that EVERY MESSENGER was persecuted, not simple Jesus or Mohammed (PBUT)

You stated “Yes there are very superficial similarities between the Quran and what preceded it.. but that quickly dissolves since the core principles are completely at odds with each other”

I stand by that!

Dear Gossamer, this is simply incorrect. The core principles are in harmony. Have you not read the article that I referred you to titled The Audacity of Hope? It is the audacity of hoping that Christians will realise the reconciliation taught by Jesus, and Muslims will realize the reconciliation taught by Mohammed.

The whole purpose of Islam is to submit ones will to Allah swt-- I am yet to find the purpose of Christianity-- nonetheless, if I did, I'd have to do it through Jesus as he is allegedly God and thus there is NO harmony between Islam and Christianity!

Gossamer, please follow me for a brief moment. The available evidence supports the views that:

1. Mohammed was a prophet sent by the God of Abraham with a message of reconciliation between God and man (man to include male and female) and between man and man.​

Ok

2. Mohammed was sent to execute God’s judgement on the surrounding nations, and he provided instructions to his followers on how to behave during this period.

not just for that period, but for all periods!

3. After Mohammed’s death, the Qur’an was compiled in a non-chronological order which mixed these two separate and distinct messages.

That is nonsense, the Quran is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense, verses in various suras are revealed 23 yrs apart, which is actually part of the inimitability of the Quran, if someone were simply jotting down some poetry of today, they wouldn't have the same fluency in style, rhyme, meaning, context twenty three yrs later, all while managing everything politically, economically, socially, and as alleged plagiarizing from other scriptures as well Greek scientific journals .. I don't think many people contemplate or realize the weight of this factoid! so I'll have to disagree, it is compiled by divine decree not out of whim!

4. The Qur’an as compiled has a very useful purpose. You must be disciplined to get through the long initial chapters, and there is a certain beauty about the ordering according to length. I appreciate the beautiful picture that results. However, as beautiful as it is, that was not the intended picture, for the revelation came in a chronological order.

see above reply

5. Therefore, the Qur’an as compiled can be likened to a jigsaw puzzle whose pieces have been placed according to their size. This results in a beautiful artistic work. However, if you could order the pieces as intended, chronologically, then a different picture is revealed.

Again, not in accordance to size at all, but in accordance with what intended!
​

The problem is that although it is well known that the Qur’an is not ordered in accordance with how Mohammed received the revelation, some see it as an unforgivable sin punishable with eternal punishment in the fires of hell, for daring to even think of looking at the chronologically ordered picture of the Qur’an. Why is that Gossamer, why is that?

Regards,
Grenville

I have quite explained to you why above~!

all the best

 

[Walter]

Hi Umar:

This is his affirmation that `he is a worshipper of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, and that he is a creature created by Allah. He (`Isa) will live, die and be resurrected, just like the other creatures that Allah has created.

Not that he died but he will the angel of death will take his soul one day Allah knows best after he returns and kills Dajjal and fulfill what is for him to finish

Please provide some evidence from the Qur’an for this Islamic traditional view.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Dear Imam:

It is becoming clear where we are diverging. It is actually in the interpretation of the following verse.

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)​

Islamic tradition interprets the word “peace” as “safety”. Imam, it is possible to have inner peace when all around is turmoil. I believe that Mohammed was at peace, or peace was upon him, despite the persecution he and his followers endured, without retaliating, for those initial 9 years.

Around the time of Jesus’ birth, there was much persecution as Herod tried to kill Him by murdering all of the newborn males in the area. Jesus was not safe, as His parents had to flee to Egypt, yet peace was upon Him. When the Jewish religious leaders persecuted Jesus because He challenged, not their scriptures, but their Jewish religious traditions that violated their scriptures, peace was upon Jesus. When the Jews turned Jesus over to the Romans who tortured and killed Him, peace was upon Jesus.

When Jesus was in the garden praying the same night that He was arrested, He did ask God that He be spared what was to come, but He accepted His mission and submitted His will to God’s. Peace was upon Him. When He was on the cross, and through the pain questioned God’s commitment to Him, yet He was at peace and declared “Into your Hands I commend my Spirit.”

So despite the violent environment in which he was born, in which He engaged the Jewish leaders, and in which He died, yet God’s peace was upon Him.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[جوري]

Hi Umar:



Please provide some evidence from the Qur’an for this Islamic traditional view.

Regards,
Grenville

(18) And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being] before his ['Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Îsa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #159)

 

[جوري]

(34) And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام on the earth], We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations). (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,).
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #104)

 

[Imam]

Dear Imam:

It is becoming clear where we are diverging. It is actually in the interpretation
Islamic tradition interprets the word “peace” as “safety”. Imam, it is possible to have inner peace when all around is turmoil. I believe that Mohammed was at peace, or peace was upon him, despite the persecution he and his followers endured, without retaliating, for those initial 9 years.


Regards,
Grenville

Dear Grenville


So you would understand the peace to be only inner peace?

ok
I believe sometimes possible to have inner peace when all around is turmoil ....
but I don't think , according to new testament the day Jesus got crucified he had neither outer peace nor inner peace ...

he is said to have had extreme inner agony and pain reflected in his loud cry

Matthew 27:45-46, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

Those are not the words of a pious man experiencing in that day any kind of peace.....

but again as you said It is becoming clear where we are diverging. It is actually in the interpretation but not of the word (Salaam,peace) whether it means safety or inner peace.....it is the words in future tense

(will die) and (will be resurrected)

which you mistakenly interpret as

(was killed) and (was resurrected)....

I'm sure the Arabic past tense in some cases denote present and future
as

وسيرت الجبال فكانت سرابا


كان الله عليما حكيما


ان جهنم كانت مرصادا


but the opposite (future simple denote past) is simply impossible.

If one claim Jesus according to the Quran WAS killed and Jesus WAS resurrected

one must back it up from the Quran ..

for the sake of argument let's assume that the verse is

(peace be upon me the day I was born,the day I was killed,the day I was resurrected)

what does it prove?
It would prove Quranic contradiction as we already read

(They neither killed him nor crucified him)!!!



peace

 

[Walter]

Hi Gossamer:

You have quoted a useful chapter.

Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us). To Him belong all (creatures) in the heavens and on earth: Even those who are in His (very) Presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor are they (ever) weary (of His service) (21:18-19)​

It is similar in some ways to Jesus’ statements about those who choose religious tradition over the Truth.

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes’?​

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:42-46)​

Your comment: “That is nonsense, the Qur’an is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense” is simply wrong. Have you even tried reading it chronological order Gossamer? I think that you will be pleasantly surprised.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[جوري]

Hi Gossamer:

You have quoted a useful chapter.

Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us). To Him belong all (creatures) in the heavens and on earth: Even those who are in His (very) Presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor are they (ever) weary (of His service) (21:18-19)​

It is similar in some ways to Jesus’ statements about those who choose religious tradition over the Truth.

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes’?​

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet. (Matthew 21:42-46)​

Greetings,

Does the above quote apply to Christians? I see them following many pagan traditions rather than sticking to pure unadulterated monotheism!

Your comment: “That is nonsense, the Qur’an is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense” is simply wrong. Have you even tried reading it chronological order Gossamer? I think that you will be pleasantly surprised.

Regards,
Grenville

Of course I have-- you are not the first to bring that request forth, though I personally fail to see what any of you gain from it.. There was no surprise to me, save for the brilliance of having it as it is now without any filing or computer programs. No wonder the Quran is described as inimitable!


all the best

 

[Walter]

Dear Imam:

If we stay with what the Qur’an actually says, we read:

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! Such Jesus the son of Mary: a statement of truth, about which they dispute. (19:30–34)​

So we have the past tense for His birth (was born) and the future tense for His death and resurrection. The context is in recalling what Jesus said while He was a baby on the Earth centuries earlier. Therefore, this verse is entirely consistent with the Biblical account that Jesus did actually die later in His life, and was resurrected.

I have already addressed the inner peach that Jesus Had while on the cross. When He was on the cross, He did question God’s commitment to Him (My God, why …), yet as the subsequent verses show, despite the pain of crucifixion, Jesus was at peace and declared “Into your Hands I commend my Spirit.” That is a statement of peace Imam.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Hi Gossamer:

Does the above quote apply to Christians? I see them following many pagan traditions rather than sticking to pure unadulterated monotheism!

This would apply to anyone who puts their religious traditions above the truth of the Scriptures. Therefore, I would say that it applies to Jews, Christians, and yes, Muslims too.

Of course I have-- you are not the first to bring that request forth, though I personally fail to see what any of you gain from it.. There was no surprise to me, save for the brilliance of having it as it is now without any filing or computer programs. No wonder the Quran is described as inimitable!!

Well congratulations Gossamer, for you previously stated:

That is nonsense, the Quran is compiled exactly as it should, if it were compiled as it was revealed then it would make no sense,

Regards,
Grenville

 

[جوري]

Hi Gossamer:



This would apply to anyone who puts their religious traditions above the truth of the Scriptures. Therefore, I would say that it applies to Jews, Christians, and yes, Muslims too.

People who wish to embrace Islam can keep themselves from traditions, whilst I believe Christians have a difficult time divorcing themselves from it if at all, given that all major religious observances are nothing but pagan in origin!

Well congratulations Gossamer, for you previously stated:



Regards,
Grenville

I don't see how the two comments are at odds?

all the best

 

[Imam]

Hi ,Grenville

I have already addressed the inner peach that Jesus Had while on the cross.

And I have addressed the inner agony that Jesus Had while on the cross using the Bible too.....

In the Bible you can prove everything ....

you can prove Jesus to be God
and you can prove Jesus isn't God ,too.

You can prove salvation through atonement
and you can prove salvation through works ,too.

etc.....................

but above all it is not our issue ..let's concentrate on the Quran a little....

Dear Imam:

If we stay with what the Qur’an actually says, we read:

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I shall die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"! (19:30–34)​

this verse is entirely consistent with the Biblical account that Jesus did actually die later in His life, and was resurrected.

1- check the underlined again to find out where the inconsistency is.

2- To put an end for any doubt that the verse mentions the future resurrection from the dead in the day of resurrection (Judgment) let's take a look at another verse using the same term

Quran 19: 12 So Peace on him(John the baptist) the day he was born the day the day of his death and the day he will be raised up to life !

John the baptist never been raised up to life later in His life ...the meaning is clear in both the verse of Jesus and John (resurrection of both in the day of Judgment).....


peace

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Greenvile
quran 2 28. How can you disbelieve in Allâh? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.
we all die and all come back to Allah Jesus as well
quran 19 30-34
30. "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" ...He is a slave and a prophet
31. "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live" ...He had to worship God and follow his commands
32. "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.
33. "And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I "SHALL" be raised alive!" ..He was born (btw God is not born) And the Day He dies and A day he SHALL return going back to ayah 28 surah 2 we all are live then die and come back on the day of Resurrection just like your God
34. Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
READ IT MAKE SENSE OF IT UNDERSTAND IT AND STOP TRYING TO MAKE THE QURAN MAKE YOUR RELIGION LOOK right for the Quran says
And whoever seeks a Way of life other than submission and surrender to Allah's Will (Islam), it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
[Noble Quran 3:85] Mean anyother way of life is loser
also about your book
And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.

It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Al-Hukma (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion, etc.) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allah's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyun (learned men of religion who practice what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it."
[Noble Quran 3:78-79]
People lied about the revelations, changed their scriptures (the Bible and everyother book before Quran)
so if you dont mind stop wasting our time and your time with this non sense of harmony between false (bible/Christan) and truth (Quran/islam) There is one God one truth one way of life nothing else
Harmony
compatibility in opinion and action Sure the bible still has a little of truth but how we know which do we pick and chose what we like or think?
NO we dont God gave us a way to follow to the T no picking and chosing Quran is that it is the whole truth nothing but the truth everyword is the Word of God in the Quran not anyone else so can there be harmony no is there no