First Corrupted Verse

[Zafran]

Which laws are you talking about may I ask, just give a few examples.

Like the rape law or killing someone for not keeping the sabbath - etc.

 

[Hugo]

The Qur'an we are studying today contains the same words as before it was first written. Every word and every letter in the arabic Qur'an was the same as before. Before it was written, it was first memorized by the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and once every year, he recites it to Jibreel(puh) to confirm its accurateness. he teached the Qur'an to his followers from which they memorized as well and then into writing.

How can you know this for certain or even 50% certain. You can believe it of course and that is matter for you.

 

[Zafran]

How can you know this for certain or even 50% certain. You can believe it of course and that is matter for you.

First of all the Quran is Muttawatir meaning that it is multiply transmitted down to us with scholars who have memorized the Quran and have written it down - from the prophet pbuh all the way down to us.

second - the Quran has a rythem and rhyme and isnt that hard to memorize (you just need a lot of time and effort).


Its like the first surah - every Muslims knows it (by memory on earth) because you need it for salat.

with the bible (NT) you dont have that - simply becasue the core of christainity is about the death of christ and what happend afterwards according to the writers - then a theolgy is made out of it - all comes after christs death - which is the main thing about christainty.

 

[rpwelton]

Read the numerous threads on this forum describing the miracles of the Qur'an. Read its history in how nobody has been able to compete with it, how it was miraculously preserved and the numerous prophecies it fulfilled. There are also historical and scientific miracles, as well as the sheer literary miracle. It challenges the reader, makes him or her think, and presents clear and sound guidance. It provides a solution for humanity's problems.

These are some of the reasons why I believe the Qur'an to be the True Word of God.

Why do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?

 

[Hugo]

Like the rape law or killing someone for not keeping the sabbath - etc.

Well this is not particularly precise but I will try to answer and leave you with a question. I will begin by saying that we can exceed the laws demands, we can go beyond that. No one would regard that as in any way reprehensible would they?

May I suggest we look at the 10 commandments as found in Exodus 20:3-17. If you do that you will find that the commandments are in two sections. Commandments 1 to 4 are about our relationship and attitude to God in faith and commandments 5 to 10 are about our action, about how we live and therefore are about the evidence in our daily lives of obedience and service to God. Now if we move to the words of Jesus he said

Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV) – 37. Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38. This is the first and greatest commandment. 39. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.' 40. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

You will notice that this is also in two parts: one about our motivation towards God and the other about our motivation towards our neighbour. If you take the trouble, and I urge you to do it, you will see that in Exodus we just have commands to do or not do something but here Jesus goes far, far beyond just keeping laws and insists that we do it out of love for God and love for our neighbour.

Do you know what it means to love your neighbour; do you understand the full implications of these words? If you don’t go and read Luke 10:25-37 and you might also like to consider the absolutely startling words of Jesus in Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

So in perhaps simple terms and example is that we would follow God's command and not covert our neighbours possessions but it is better if we do that out of love for our neighbour rather that as a strict duty towards the law. I don't know for sure but I think Islam and Christiqanity would agree here.

When it comes to killing people which I guess you refer to we step back from that because in the famous words of Jesus "let him that is without sin cast the first stone". This does not mean I don't believe in sin or punishment because I do and there are always consequences of sin and so our national laws must take care of that short of killing. Muslims do exactly the same, for example, I don't see them advocating slavery and concubinage and masters having sexual relations with their slave girls yet it is clearly in the law - so why don't you do it?

Another very simple example: Al-Baqara 2:187 states how God ordained that you mark the distinction between day and night during Ramadan? It is quite plain, it is unmistakable, the method is simple but you do not follow it do you?

 

[Hugo]

Read the numerous threads on this forum describing the miracles of the Qur'an. Read its history in how nobody has been able to compete with it, how it was miraculously preserved and the numerous prophecies it fulfilled. There are also historical and scientific miracles, as well as the sheer literary miracle. It challenges the reader, makes him or her think, and presents clear and sound guidance. It provides a solution for humanity's problems.

These are some of the reasons why I believe the Qur'an to be the True Word of God. Why do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?

Good post and question at the end.

But of course the Bible has miracles and prophesies more numerous that those of the Qu'ran and the Qu'ran contains a good deal of essentially Biblical material. The Bible is also challenging, just read the Sermon on the Mount and it also provide through faith solutions.

With regard to preservation of the Qu'ran there are easily as many arguments against it as there are for it and its literary merit has been question many times even in this board the challenge to pit the Bible against the Qu'ran has been posed many times but never taken up. But I don't know if you would agree but faith is more than proofs. If the proofs were like proofs for gravity then we would have no choice but to believe but God has ordained that we find him through faith.

I believe the Bible is the word of God because the example and teaching of Jesus which I regard as priceless. I have read and studied it all the way through many times and to me it has an unquestionable unity although it was compiled over perhaps as much as 1,600 years by as many as 40 authors of all kinds from rough fishermen to highly educated kings and priests. So for me its not a matter of assembling proofs as such but its about knowing God through that continuous revelation from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Hugo]

First of all the Quran is Muttawatir meaning that it is multiply transmitted down to us with scholars who have memorized the Quran and have written it down - from the prophet pbuh all the way down to us.

second - the Quran has a rythem and rhyme and isnt that hard to memorize (you just need a lot of time and effort).

Its like the first surah - every Muslims knows it (by memory on earth) because you need it for salat.

with the bible (NT) you dont have that - simply becasue the core of Christianity is about the death of christ and what happend afterwards according to the writers - then a theolgy is made out of it - all comes after christ's death - which is the main thing about christainty.

Every religion has its core. Islam did not come in one big bang on day one, ready formed did it? the theology had to be developed by men over centuries and many, many thousands of hadeeth - this is irrefutable.

Christian theology is a whole Bible theology and anyone who has read the New Testament will tell you that it cannot be understood or made sense of without knowing the Old Testament because there are quotations or references to it everywhere you look.

 

[Hugo]

Not quiet, why do you accept the NT to abrogate things in the OT and to be more authoritative?, because you believe that it came from the same source GOD although it came later.
So your logic cannot apply here because the source (as we muslims believe) is non other than GOD.

As long as we can agree this is about belief then we can get along fine as one cannot prove in any sense that I know, that God exists or did this or that.

 

[Basit]

As long as we can agree this is about belief then we can get along fine as one cannot prove in any sense that I know, that God exists or did this or that.

Salam! The existence of God is already prooved many times before. From the miracles of God through his messengers, God has proved he is there and he is powerful. when he drowned the army of pharaoh, when he healed the sick through Jesus(puh), when he splitted the moon assunder, everytime you wake up each morning after you sleep, the air that you breathe, the light that you see, these are all things done by God. what proof more is required so as one cannot believe his existence. God is everywhere, he sees everything, he knows everything, and he knew all that is happening and is to happen.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

As long as we can agree this is about belief then we can get along fine as one cannot prove in any sense that I know, that God exists or did this or that.

You should look harder then. I understand that Christians have a hard time figuring out what God did, with the thousands of sects and manuscripts, but it is easy in Islam.

 

[Zafran]

Every religion has its core. Islam did not come in one big bang on day one, ready formed did it? the theology had to be developed by men over centuries and many, many thousands of hadeeth - this is irrefutable.

Christian theology is a whole Bible theology and anyone who has read the New Testament will tell you that it cannot be understood or made sense of without knowing the Old Testament because there are quotations or references to it everywhere you look.

The NT its all about Christ and his death - backed by Paul and Johns theology -

In Islam the prophet Muhammad pbuh finished the religion - the Quran is sufficent and so are the hadiths of prophet muhammad pbuh life - which are sayings of the prophet pbuh.

Christainty came about after christ died - then you have men walking around trying make sense of the death of chirst and making a religion on and showing there own points of view.

Thats like Muslims trying to make a religion out of the death of prophet Muhammad pbuh and writing about there own points of views!

Thats the difference.

Just to add in Islam you need prophets to authorize a messege from God - not normal men - thats also a major difference.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Every religion has its core. Islam did not come in one big bang on day one, ready formed did it? the theology had to be developed by men over centuries and many, many thousands of hadeeth - this is irrefutable.

Christian theology is a whole Bible theology and anyone who has read the New Testament will tell you that it cannot be understood or made sense of without knowing the Old Testament because there are quotations or references to it everywhere you look.

Hardly. The Quran was completed before his death. Done. No evolution. No nothing. Our theology never changed. Our book was never altered. It was all based on the Quran we had in our hands and the actions of the Prophet which clearly showed us how to act. Every Muslim knows that the best Muslims were the first ones and this has always been our standard.

Christianity has thousands of sects, not one of which forms anything close to a majority. Islam is 85% Sunni. 15% are shia, based mostly in the Iran area. Isn't this a sign for you?

 

[جوري]

How would you know that your chemistry book was filled with errors whether its a later one or not? It is also crystal clear that one cannot ace your finals just because you have a book.

Which laws are you talking about may I ask, just give a few examples.

You'd have to know something about science in order to understand that.. from a very basic point if your reactions aren't giving you a proper yield because your method was wrong, and later corrected with positive result, should alert you not to keep going about it incorrectly.

Now, I have given plenty of example of where you've forgo God's commandments.

1- do you keep up with the sabbath?
2- is circumcision prescribed you
3- do you pray the proper way as in not treating god as your genie amen
4- are your women modest as per god's laws
5- do you eat kosher meat and refrain from pigs?
6- do you give a mandatory portion of your earnings to charity and not just twice a year?
7- do you fast?
8- do you worship the Lord of the universe or a man he sent?


it really comes down to believability and frankly I have a hard time believing that the creator of the endless biochemical and physiological reaction in the body, the God who gave us the universe and its cosmos, the God who gave us a billion species, and seasons, life and death, children and families, sustenance and emotions.. is the same one who forsake himself, after praying to himself, after selecting a few ineffectual apostles to carry his message, and abrogating his OT commandments through his nemesis, and ****ing the earth for not bearing him fruit, and impregnating women with himself after annunciating himself to them, suckling, using bathrooms, and if I am to go further and be so bold as Martin Luther, had affairs with three different women... It makes for a nice Narnia story but not as a viable way of life..


so in closure, your bible on its own accord doesn't cut it for me, let alone in comparison with other scriptures... frankly there is nothing to compare so I am not certain as to why you try so hard to hammer in moot points?


I am done with this..

all the best

 

[جوري]

Hardly. Please do some research. The Quran was completed before his death. Done. No evolution. No nothing. Our theology never changed. Our book was never altered. It was all based on the Quran we had in our hands and the actions of the Prophet which clearly showed us how to act. Every Muslim knows that the best Muslims were the first ones and this has always been our standard.

Christianity has thousands of sects, not one of which forms anything close to a majority. Islam is 85% Sunni. 15% are shia, based mostly in the Iran area. Isn't this a sign for you?

amazingly enough if there was a new t to the old t, don't you think the Jews would have been the first to jump at it?...

there is more to 'irrefutable' truth than just hammering it in with empty assertions, and no I don't have to read about influential speech from his 'research methods' to say that with any conviction.

the Quran stands on its own accord.. else I challenge him to bring in the names of the historians that whispered the Quran in a lyrical style years apart to the prophet?

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFeMUVEGNGY[/MEDIA]

1 CONSIDER this unfolding [of God's message], as it comes down from on high!1 2 This fellow-man of yours has not gone astray, nor is he deluded,2 3 and neither does he speak out of his own desire: 4 that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired - 5 something that a very mighty one3 has imparted to him: 6 [an angel] endowed with surpassing power, who in time manifested himself in his true shape and nature, 7 appearing in the horizon's loftiest part,4 8 and then drew near, and came close, 9 until he was but two bow-lengths away, or even nearer.5 10 And thus did [God] reveal unto His servant whatever He deemed right to reveal.6 11 The [servant's] heart did not give the lie to what he saw:7 12 will you, then, contend with him as to what he saw?8 13 And, indeed, he saw him9 a second time 14 by the lote-tree of the farthest limit,10 15 near unto the garden of promise, 16 with the lote-tree veiled in a veil of nameless splendour....11 17 [And withal,] the eye did not waver, nor yet did it stray: 18 truly did he see some of the most profound of his Sustainer's symbols.12 19 HAVE YOU, then, ever considered [what you are worshipping in] Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza, 20 as well as [in] Manat, the third and last [of this triad]?13 21 Why - for yourselves [you would choose only] male offspring, whereas to Him [you assign] female:14 22 that, lo and behold, is an unfair division! 23 These [allegedly divine beings] are nothing but empty names which you have invented - you and your forefathers - [and] for which God has bestowed no warrant from on high.15 They [who worship them] follow nothing but surmise and their own wishful thinking16 - although right guidance has now indeed come unto them from their Sustainer. 24 Does man imagine that it is his due to have17 all that he might wish for, 25 despite the fact that [both] the life to come and this present [one] belong to God [alone]?18 26 For, however many angels there be in the heavens, their intercession can be of no least avail [to anyone] - except after God has given leave [to intercede] for whomever He wills and with whom He is well-pleased.19 27 Behold, it is [only] such as do not [really] believe in the life to come that regard the angels as female beings;20 28 and [since] they have no knowledge whatever thereof,21 they follow nothing but surmise: yet, behold, never can surmise take the place of truth. 29 Avoid thou, therefore, those who turn away from all remembrance of Us and care for no more than the life of this world, 30 which, to them, is the only thing worth knowing.22 Behold, thy Sustainer is fully aware as to who has strayed from His path, and fully aware is He as to who follows His guidance. 31 Indeed, unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth: and so He will reward those who do evil in accordance with what they did, and will reward those who do good with ultimate good.23 32 As for those who avoid the [truly] grave sins and shameful deeds - even though they may sometimes stumble24 - behold, thy Sustainer is abounding in forgiveness. He is fully aware of you25 when He brings you in to being out of dust,26 and when you are still hidden in your mothers' wombs: do not, then, consider yourselves pure - [for] He knows best as to who is conscious of Him.27 33 HAST THOU, then, ever considered him who turns away [from remembering Us, and cares for no more than the life of this world], 34 and gives so little [of himself for the good of his soul], and so grudgingly?28 35 Does he [claim to] have knowledge of something that is beyond the reach of human perception, so that he can see [it clearly]?29 36 Or has he never yet been told of what was [said] in the revelations of Moses, 37 and of Abraham, who to his trust was true:30 38 that no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden;31 39 and that nought shall be accounted unto man but what he is striving for;32 40 and that in time [the nature of] all his striving will be shown [to him in its true light],33 41 whereupon he shall be requited for it with the fullest requital; 42 and that with thy Sustainer is the beginning and the end [of all that exits];34 43 and that it is He alone who causes [you] to laugh and to weep; 44 and that it is He alone who deals death and grants life; 45 and that it is He who creates the two kinds - the male and the female - 46 out of a [mere] drop of sperm as it is poured forth, 47 and that [therefore] it is within His power to bring about a second life;35 48 and that it is He alone who frees from want and causes to possess; 49 and that it is He alone who sustains the brightest star;36 50 and that it is He who destroyed the ancient [tribes of] 'Ad 51 and Thamud, leaving no trace [of them],37 52 as well as the people of Noah before them - [since,] verily, they all had been most wilful in their evildoing and most overweening - 53 just as He thrust into perdition those cities that were overthrown 54 and then covered them from sight forever.38 55 About which, then, of thy Sustainer's powers canst thou [still] remain in doubt?39 56 HIS IS a warning like those warnings of old:40 57 that [Last Hour] which is so near draws ever nearer, 58 [although] none but God can unveil it.... 59 Do you, perchance, find this tiding strange? 60 And do you laugh instead of weeping, 61 and divert yourselves all the while? 62 [Nay,] but prostrate yourselves before God, and worship [Him alone]! 1 Or: "Consider the star when it sets" - an interpretation which for some reason has the preference of the majority of the commentators. However, almost all of them admit that the term najm - derived from the verb najama, "it appeared", "began", "ensued", or "proceeded" denotes also the "unfolding" of something that comes or appears gradually, as if by instalments. Hence, this term has from the very beginning been applied to each of the gradually-revealed parts (nujum) of the Qur'an and, thus, to the process of its gradual revelation, or its "unfolding", as such. This was, in fact, the interpretation of the above verse given by 'Abd Allah ibn'Abbas (as quoted by Tabari); in view of the sequence, this interpretation is regarded as fully justified by Raghib, Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi, Ibn Kathir and other authorities. Raghib and Ibn Kathir, in particular, point to the phrase mawaqi' an-nujum in 56:75, which undoubtedly refers to the step-by-step revelation of the Qur'an. - As regards my rendering of the adjective particle wa as "Consider", see surah {74}, note [23]. 2 See note [150] on 7:184. 3 I.e., the Angel of Revelation, Gabriel. 4 Cf. 81:23 and the corresponding note [8]. According to the Qur'an and the testimony of authentic Traditions, the Prophet had no more than twice in his lifetime a vision of this angelic force "manifested in its true shape and nature" (which, as pointed out by Zamakhshari, is the meaning of the expression istawa in this context): once after the period called fatrat al-wahy (see introductory note to surah {74}), and another time, as alluded to in verses {13-18}, in the course of his mystic vision known as the "Ascension" (see Appendix IV). 5 This graphic "description" of the angel's approach, based on an Arabian figure of speech, is meant to convey the idea that the Angel of Revelation became a clearly perceptible, almost tangible, presence. 6 Lit., "whatever He revealed": an allusion to the exceptional manifestation of the angel "in his true shape and nature" as well as to the contents of divine revelation as such. In its deeper sense the above phrase implies that even to His chosen prophets God does not entirely unveil the ultimate mysteries of existence, of life and death, of the purpose for which He has created the universe, or of the nature of the universe itself. 7 Inasmuch as the Prophet was fully aware of the spiritual character of his experience, there was no conflict between his conscious mind and his intuitive perception (the "vision of the heart") of what is normally not perceptible. 8 Thus the Qur'an makes it clear that the Prophet's vision of the angel was not a delusion but a true spiritual experience: but precisely because it was purely spiritual in nature, it could be conveyed to others only by means of symbols and allegories, which sceptics all too readily dismiss as fancies, "contending with him as to what he saw". 9 I.e., he saw the angel "manifested in his true shape and nature". 10 I.e., on the occasion of his mystic experience of the "Ascension" (mi'raj). Explaining the vision conveyed in the expression sidrat al-muntaha, Raghib suggests that owing to the abundance of its leafy shade, the sidr or sidrah (the Arabian lote-tree) appears in the Qur'an as well as in the Traditions relating to the Ascension as a symbol of the "shade - i.e., the spiritual peace and fulfilment - of paradise. One may assume that the qualifying term al-muntaha ("of the utmost [or "farthest"] limit") is indicative of the fact that God has set a definite limit to all knowledge accessible to created beings, as pointed out in the Nihayah: implying, in particular, that human knowledge, though potentially vast and penetrating, can never - not even in paradise (the "garden of promise" mentioned in the next verse) - attain to an understanding of the ultimate reality, which the Creator has reserved for Himself (cf. note [6] above). 11 Lit., "when the lote-tree was veiled with whatever veiled [it]": a phrase deliberately vague (mubham), indicative of the inconceivable majesty and splendour attaching to this symbol of paradise "which no description can picture and no definition can embrace" (Zamakhshari). 12 Lit., "[some] of the greatest of his Sustainer's symbols (ayat)" For this specific rendering of the term ayah, see note [2] on 17:1, which refers to the same mystic experience, namely, the Ascension. In both these Qur'anic allusions the Prophet is said to have been "made to see" (i.e., given to understand) some, but not all, of the ultimate truths (cf. also {7:187-188}); and this, too, serves to explain the idea expressed in verse {10} above. 13 After pointing out that the Prophet was granted true insight into some of the most profound verities, the Our'an draws our attention to the "false symbols" which men so often choose to invest with divine qualities or powers: in this instance - by way of example - to the blasphemous imagery of the Prophet's pagan contemporaries epitomized in the triad of Al-Lat, Manat and Al-Uzza. These three goddesses - regarded by the pagan Arabs as "God's daughters" side by side with the angels (who, too, were conceived of as females) - were worshipped in most of pre-Islamic Arabia, and had several shrines in the Hijaz and in Najd. The worship of Al-Lat was particularly ancient and almost certainly of South-Arabian origin; she may have been the prototype of the Greek semi-goddess Leto, one of the wives of Zeus and mother of Apollo and Artemis. 14 In view of the contempt which the pagan Arabs felt for their female offspring (cf. {16: 57-59} and {62}, as well as the corresponding notes), their attribution of "daughters" to God was particularly absurd and self-contradictory: for, quite apart from the blasphemous belief in God's having "offspring" of any kind, their ascribing to Him what they themselves despised gave the lie to their alleged "reverence" for Him whom they, too, regarded as the Supreme Being - a point which is stressed with irony in the next sentence. 15 Cf. 12:40. 16 An allusion to the pagan idea that those goddesses, as well as the angels, would act as "mediators" between their worshippers and God: a wishful idea which lingers on even among adherents of higher religions in the guise of a veneration of saints and deified persons. 17 Lit., "Is it for man to have . ..", etc. 18 I.e., despite the fact (which is the meaning of the particle fa in this context) that God is omnipotent and omniscient and does not, therefore, require any "mediator" between Himself and His creatures. 19 For an explanation of the Qur'anic concept of "intercession", see note [7] on 10:3, as well as notes [26] and [27] on 10:18. 20 Lit., "that name the angels with a female name" - i.e., think of them as being endowed with sex and/or as being "God's daughters". As the Qur'an points out in many places, the people spoken of in this context do believe in life after death, inasmuch as they express the hope that the angels and the imaginary deities which they worship will "mediate" between them and God, and will "intercede" for them. However, their belief is far too vague to make them realize that the quality of man's life in the hereafter does not depend on such outside factors but is causally, and directly, connected with the manner of his life in this world: and so the Qur'an declares that their attitude is, for all practical purposes, not much different from the attitude of people who reject the idea of a hereafter altogether. 21 Namely, of the real nature and function of the category of beings spoken of in the Qur'an as angels, inasmuch as they belong to the realm of al-ghayb, "that which is beyond the reach of human perception". Alternatively, the pronoun in bihi may relate to God, in which case the phrase could be rendered as "they have no knowledge whatever of Him" - implying that both the attribution of "progeny" to Him and the belief that His judgment depends on, or could be influenced by, "mediation" or "intercession" is the result of an anthropomorphic concept of God and, therefore, far removed from the truth. 22 Lit., "that is their sum-total [or "goal"] of knowledge". 23 I.e., whereas good deeds will be rewarded with far more than their merits may warrant, evil will be recompensed with no more than its equivalent (cf. 6:160); and either will be decided by the Almighty without the need of "mediation" or "intercession". 24 Lit., "save for a touch [thereof]": a phrase which may be taken to mean "an occasional stumbling into sin" - i.e., not deliberately-followed by sincere repentance (Baghawi, Razi, Ibn Kathir). 25 Sc., "and of your inborn weakness" - an implied echo of the statement that "man has been created weak" (4:28) and, therefore, liable to stumble into sinning. 26 Lit., "out of the earth": see second half of note [47] on 3:59, as well as note [4] on 23:12. 27 I.e., "never boast about your own purity", but remain humble and remember that "it is God who causes whomever He wills to remain pure" (4:49). 28 My rendering of the above two verses (together with the two interpolations between brackets) is based on Razi's convincing interpretation of this passage as a return to the theme touched upon in verses 29-30. 29 I.e., "How can he be so sure that there is no life in the hereafter, and no judgment?" 30 Cf. 2:124 and the corresponding note [100]. It is obvious that the names of Abraham and Moses are cited here only by way of example, drawing attention to the fact that all through human history God has entrusted His elect, the prophets, with the task of conveying certain unchangeable ethical truths to man. 31 This basic ethical law appears in the Qur'an five times - in 6:164, 17:15, 35:18, 39:7, as well as in the above instance, which is the oldest in the chronology of revelation. Its implication is threefold: firstly, it expresses a categorical rejection of the Christian doctrine of the "original sin" with which every human being is allegedly burdened from birth; secondly, it refutes the idea that a person's sins could be "atoned for" by a saint's or a prophet's redemptive sacrifice (as evidenced, for instance, in the Christian doctrine of Jesus' vicarious atonement for mankind's sinfulness, or in the earlier, Persian doctrine of man's vicarious redemption by Mithras); and, thirdly, it denies, by implication, the possibility of any "mediation" between the sinner and God. 32 Cf. the basic, extremely well-authenticated saying of the Prophet, "Actions will be [judged] only according to the conscious intentions [which prompted them]; and unto everyone will be accounted only what he consciously intended", i.e., while doing whatever he did. This Tradition is quoted by Bukhari in seven places - the first one as a kind of introduction to his Sahih - as well as by Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i (in four places), Ibn Majah, Ibn Hanbal, and several other compilations. In this connection it is to be noted that in the ethics of the Qur'an, the term "action" ('amal) comprises also a deliberate omission of actions, whether good or bad, as well as a deliberate voicing of beliefs, both righteous and sinful: in short, everything that man consciously aims at and expresses by word or deed. 33 Lit., "his striving will be seen", i.e., on the Day of Judgment, when - as the Qur'an states in many places - God "will make you [truly] understand all that you were doing [in life]". 34 Lit., "the utmost limit" or "goal", circumscribing the beginning and the end of the universe both in time and in space, as well as the source from which everything proceeds and to which everything must return. 35 Lit., "that upon Him rests the other [or "second"] coming to life (nash'ah)", i.e., resurection. 36 Lit., "who is the Sustainer of Sirius (ash-shi'ra)", a star of the first magnitude, belonging to the constellation Canis Major. Because it is the brightest star in the heavens, it was widely worshipped in pre-Islamic Arabia. Idiomatically, the phrase rabb ash-shi'ra is used as a metonym for the Creator and Upholder of the universe. 37 For the story of the tribe of 'Ad, see second half of note [48] on 7:65; for that of the Thamud, note [56] on 7:73. 38 Lit., "so that there covered them that which covered": a reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, the cities of "Lot's people" (see, in particular, {11:77-83}). 39 This rhetorical question is evidently addressed to the type of man spoken of in verses {33-35}. - For the reason of my rendering of ala' (lit., "blessings" or "bounties") as "powers", see second half of note [4] on 55:13. 40 Lit., "a warning of [or "from among"] the warnings of old" - implying that the revelation granted to Muhammad does not aim at establishing a "new" religion but, on the contrary, continues and confirms the basic message entrusted to the earlier prophets - in this particular instance alluding to the certainty of the coming of the Last Hour and of God's ultimate judgment.

Nothing out there compares to the Quran!
​

 

[Grace Seeker]

Why do you quote Paul? He never met Jesus (pbuh)!! nor did he ever talk to a disciple!!

As one who accepts the integrity of the book of Acts, I don't believe this to be a true statement of fact.

Acts 9

1Meanwhile, Saul [aka, Paul] was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

So, Paul did meet Jesus.

Acts 15

1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles [aka, Jesus' disciples] and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18that have been known for ages.

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.

So, Paul not only talked with the disciples, but met with them in a council to determine the future direction of the church. Further at the conclusion of that conference Paul was actually sent out by the disciples to continue doing the very work he had already been doing in the taking the Gospel message to non-Jews and receiving them into the life of the Church without regard to these non-Jews having to become Jews and abide by all of the Jewish Law themselves.


And the book of Acts was NOT written by Paul.

 

[جوري]

As one who accepts the integrity of the book of Acts, I don't believe this to be a true statement of fact.

So, Paul did meet Jesus.

.

Isn't it amazing how in the not so distant past on a thread I can't be bothered to look for at the moment you admitted to me, that Paul NEVER met Jesus..
why the hypocrisy Gene?
Do you see why folks can't be trusting of anything you write..
stop being so loopy!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yes, Islam means to submit to the Will of God. But what does that mean?

It means you follow all of His prophets and the Message that he sent with them. This of course means you have to follow Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in addition to the ones that came before him.

If we follow Muhammad, then we know he never taught anything about atonement, nor Jesus judging the world, nor Jesus being crucified. In fact, the Qur'an tells us the exact opposite is true:

And while I actually agree with you on this point, what I understand Grenville to be saying is that your interpretation of the Qur'an -- teaching that Jesus was never crucified -- is just as incorrect as my interpretation of the Bible -- teaching that Jesus was God incarnate. Grenville would hold that neither of these things are actually taught in either of our books and that it is only because we read them through the inherited misinterpretations of our religious traditions that we see them saying any such thing. If, instead, we could see them with the clear eyes that Grenville has we would see them being in harmony with each other and never in disagreement.


(Now, how did this discussion get moved from the "Harmony" thread to this one?)

 

[Grace Seeker]

Isn't it amazing how in the not so distant past on a thread I can't be bothered to look for at the moment you admitted to me, that Paul NEVER met Jesus..
why the hypocrisy Gene?
Do you see why folks can't be trusting of anything you write..
stop being so loopy!

You're going to have to show me. I've seen you read things into my comments before. I believe I said that Paul and never met Jesus during Jesus' earthly life. That doesn't mean they never met at all.

 

[جوري]

You're going to have to show me. I've seen you read things into my comments before. I believe I said that Paul and never met Jesus during Jesus' earthly life. That doesn't mean they never met at all.

Indeed.. 'not earthly life' the later addendum is a matter of faith in paul's intentions that are frankly questionable to the rest of humanity-- he wasn't even a chosen apostle.

Thanks for being forthcoming..

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

Those are Paul's teachings. The fact that you consider him a "super-apostle" or "prophet" is your own belief. We are discussing what Jesus actually taught himself, as Muslims we can believe Jesus, but we will not believe Paul. Please quote me what Jesus said about dying for the sins of humanity.

Jesus did not bring "The Gospels", he brought the Gospel, which we do not have today.

So, you don't actually know what it is that Jesus taught. Rather you accept second hand information regarding Jesus' teaching, just as you accuse us Christians of doing.