Demographic time bomb

[Uthman]

Greetings Thinker

Your post doesn't really apply to me, but I found this part of it interesting:

Look around you, most of you are living in squalid ghettos

Are you claiming that most Muslims living in Britain reside in 'squalid ghettos'? If so, what evidence do you have to support this claim? Some statistics, perhaps?

Regards

 

[Lost&Found]

Greetings Thinker

Your post doesn't really apply to me, but I found this part of it interesting: Are you claiming that most Muslims living in Britain reside in 'squalid ghettos'? If so, what evidence do you have to support this claim? Some statistics, perhaps?

Regards

I'm not sure how credible this is (it is quite old too):

Many Muslims in England face bleak employment prospects and endure poor standards of housing, a government-backed study has found.

The report revealed Muslims were more likely than any other faith group to be jobless and living in poor conditions.

It said 14% of Muslims aged over 25 were unemployed, compared with the national unemployment rate of 4%.

University researchers in Birmingham, Derby, Oxford and Warwick also found Muslims had poorer levels of education.

The study, commissioned to review the prospects of faith communities in England, also said Muslims were more vulnerable to long-term illness.

And one in three lived in the most deprived areas of England.

'Multiple deprivation'

"Taking the Muslim population as a whole, they face some of the most acute conditions of multiple deprivation," the report said.

John Prescott's former department, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM), commissioned the academics to review data on the Hindu, Sikh and Muslim communities.

As well as highlighting the disadvantages suffered, the report found members of these communities were likely to remain concentrated in the same areas.

This was because families wanted to stay close together and many prefer to live near to their places of worship.

Researchers reviewed a variety of data, including information from the 2001 national census.

The government will use the study in its work to encourage equal opportunities for members of all religious communities, a spokeswoman said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4771233.stm

 

[Uthman]

Thank you, Lost&Found! (I'm glad that you found whatever it is you lost!)

John Prescott's former department, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM), commissioned the academics to review data on the Hindu, Sikh and Muslim communities.

As well as highlighting the disadvantages suffered, the report found members of these communities were likely to remain concentrated in the same areas.

This was because families wanted to stay close together and many prefer to live near to their places of worship.

Researchers reviewed a variety of data, including information from the 2001 national census.

This looks fairly concrete, although it's difficult to draw any conclusions about the extent to which Muslims live together in isolated areas since the findings aren't represented as a figure or percentage. Instead, the word 'likely' is used which is open to interpretation.

Interestingly, the point about Muslims being 'concentrated in the same areas' is also applied to Hindu and Sikh communities in the article. Yet, the emphasis tends to be on Muslims. Thank you for sharing this, in any case.

I am still interested to know the basis upon which Thinker made his assertion. Was he aware of this governmental study?

Regards

 

[جوري]

^^ I was surprised to learn that Muslims are doing so poorly in England.. they are doing better than the natives in the U.S

I did some research and found this minority report:

http://www.eumap.org/topics/minority/reports/eumuslims/background_reports/download/uk/uk.pdf


I must admit, I wasn't surprised by this part:

Although this could be taken as evidence of less emphasis being placed
by Muslims on a women’s pursuit of qualifications, it should be noted that the figures
for Muslim women (47 per cent) are still higher than for women nationally (42 per
cent), as well as Christian women (42 per cent) and women with no religion (38 per
cent).
The apparent paradox is that Muslims have a higher than average rate of participation
in post-compulsory education and at the same time have the highest rate of young
people without qualifications. A large part of this, of course, reflects the lack of
educational qualifications among the first generation of migrants.


Anyhow, I am rather disappointed.. I think English Muslims need to shape up, I had a different impression of British Muslims than I have just read...
but then and this is my own personal bias, England seems like a tiny little Island without great opportunities that I am not sure why anyone would seek immigration there? You couldn't fit England into California, isn't that why they went about monopolizing half the world anyway Because looting makes up for the deficiencies inside?...

btw Thinker, why are you currently presiding in Cyprus?

 

[alcurad]

^I think in the US there is less class based discrimination, not to mention there aren't that many US colonies,thus not much historical antagonism against Muslims although it exists.
also generally Europe is aggressively secularist while Americans are more comfortable with religion.

 

[جوري]

^I think in the US there is less class based discrimination, not to mention there aren't that many US colonies,thus not much historical antagonism against Muslims although it exists.

I rather think it is just easier to live in a place composed in its entirety of immigrants, the U.S and Canada, maybe Australia (though I don't know the first thing about them) are fairly new without much history.. Europe even with its very dark past has held its own identity for centuries.. There is nothing to integrate into, as they are set in their ways, the same goes with folks who go there as in (first generation immigrants) are also set in their ways. I can't imagine it being easy-- I think I'd feel very uncomfortable there and I personally have an innate aversion for Brits in particular given their history... I still didn't have the same experience as echoed by the report (and surprisingly people were nicer than I had expected) for the most part, other times I found them down right deranged-- but I imagine it is because I was there on short term work exchange, so all the people I have met were similar to me, and secondly-- I don't know any people from 'Asia' in fact I find it odd that Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis etc are referred to as 'Asians' for me the term has always meant folks as you'd encounter in Korea or Hong Kong, china or Japan etc...

But in Islam seeking knowledge is compulsory, so I imagine if the stats are so grim that there is a major hindrance that they are unable to overcome ...

May Allah swt facilitate with ease and make the affairs of the Muslims in England and all over easy for them and on them..

ameen

 

[alcurad]

...I don't know any people from 'Asia' in fact I find it odd that Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis etc are referred to as 'Asians' for me the term has always meant folks as you'd encounter in Korea or Hong Kong, china or Japan etc...
how stereotypical, alcurad says :shade:

But in Islam seeking knowledge is compulsory, so I imagine if the stats are so grim that there is a major hindrance that they are unable to overcome ...
indeed
May Allah swt facilitate with ease and make the affairs of the Muslims in England and all over easy for them and on them..
ameen
ameen

'tis true, we'll conquer the whole thing in less than a half a century anyway, so no worries. conquer it with love she said :/

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9668 the writer tries to makes sense of the situation back in 2007.

 

[جوري]

'tis true, we'll conquer the whole thing in less than a half a century anyway, so no worries. conquer it with love

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9668 i read this back two years ago. the writer is from Yale for some reason.

that is exactly it, I was really disheartened to know that, it isn't the case for European Muslims.. I kind of took it for granted that they were equally affluent and well off... but still it isn't too late for them to make a turn around I hope...:hmm:

 

[Amadeus85]

Some of you don’t want to integrate, you want to change the British culture to something similar to what you or your parents had in Pakistan. We can identify aspects of the British culture such as the binge drinking and loose morals which are not what we all might want but all in all those people and that culture developed a way of life that has attracted thousand of Muslim migrants.

I think that this is the problem, because do even the Englanders know what is the english culture? Do the Brits know what is the brittish culture? I think that they forgot, the schools forget it to avoid hurting feelings of "minorities", the political correct philosophers told you to leave it, and prepare to live in UK that has no one, brittish culture, but many cultures.
From the other hand, someone could say that current brittish culture is going to bars and watching footbal at tv or stadium. Ok, I wont judge it, I won't say if this is something valuable or not, but lets be honest, a culture, civilization based on drinking beer and watching sports doesnt have bright future. How many years you can live like that, 30, 40, 50? The culture is based on religion, so the biggest mistake of UK is a secular country (just like big mistake of my country, Poland, is a secular country). In secular UK, you are afraid of 2 millions muslims, in English christian state (how proud it sounds), you wouldnt have to be afraid of 10 million muslims. The secular state, religious freedom, separation between Church and state (which doesnt mean that Church and state used to be same, one body, but they were cooperating as two different bodies) are things that will bring us down, unless we change it. We have a 1 000 year history of other, divine system, which agreed that political power comes from God and the state and Church are two swords of the Christ to help the people to get salvation. These were glorious days when the truth was based on God's law, not on people's opinion. When the evil was condemned and the truth was held high. So those who really want to oppose islamization of Europe must be aware that here will be either christian, either islamic state. There is no other option, even for the protestants. We catholics say that for our countries the choice is either Church or death. Are europeans ready for this now? Not, we cant fool ourselves, they prefer gay parades and free sex ala animals. But in future, when the Babel Tower, called European Union collapse, among the ruins and dust, when second Reconquista begins, maybe then europeans will udnerstand that there is no other choice, and we must build the true order again.

 

[Thinker]

Greetings Thinker

Your post doesn't really apply to me, but I found this part of it interesting: Are you claiming that most Muslims living in Britain reside in 'squalid ghettos'? If so, what evidence do you have to support this claim? Some statistics, perhaps?

Regards

Squalor is relative but I would suggest that the ghettos in Leicester, Bradford and Birmingham are relatively squalid. And, I suggest that the majority of Muslims live in those and similar areas.

 

[Thinker]

It said 14% of Muslims aged over 25 were unemployed, compared with the national unemployment rate of 4%.

University researchers in Birmingham, Derby, Oxford and Warwick also found Muslims had poorer levels of education.

I would like to know what percentage of Muslim professionals (doctors, lawyers etc.,) in the UK sported the regulation fist long beard or wore the burka. With no evidence other than my own eyes I would suggest that it is minute. Why is that?

 

[Thinker]

^^ I was surprised to learn that Muslims are doing so poorly in England.. they are doing better than the natives in the U.S

btw Thinker, why are you currently presiding in Cyprus?

I believe the difference between UK and US Muslims is their country of origin and standard of education and level of prosperity before they emigrated,

France was too cold and Cyprus offers tax incentives for people like me to live here.

 

[Uthman]

Greetings Thinker

Squalor is relative but I would suggest that the ghettos in Leicester, Bradford and Birmingham are relatively squalid. And, I suggest that the majority of Muslims live in those and similar areas.

I'm aware of what you're suggesting. My question was regarding the basis upon which you make this suggestion.

Regards

 

[Thinker]

Greetings Thinker I'm aware of what you're suggesting. My question was regarding the basis upon which you make this suggestion.

Regards

My grandparents (whom I remember) lived in a squalid 2 up 2 down terraced back to back houses with no bathroom and an outside toilet. My parents (father) fought his way out of there and progressed to provide his children with a comfortable life, a university education and prosperous future. I use the word squalid to describe the living conditions of my grandparents because, to me, looking back it was squalid. Many of the Muslim enclaves of Leicester and Bradford appear, to me, very similar if not identical to that occupied by my grandparents. It’s not a very scientific measurement but that’s it. If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

 

[Muezzin]

My grandparents (whom I remember) lived in a squalid 2 up 2 down terraced back to back houses with no bathroom and an outside toilet. My parents (father) fought his way out of there and progressed to provide his children with a comfortable life, a university education and prosperous future. I use the word squalid to describe the living conditions of my grandparents because, to me, looking back it was squalid. Many of the Muslim enclaves of Leicester and Bradford appear, to me, very similar if not identical to that occupied by my grandparents. It’s not a very scientific measurement but that’s it. If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Your grandparents and parents, while undoubtedly hard-working and loving people, were not immigrants. If you're an immigrant looking for a better life in a different country, chances are you don't have much going for you in your native country - so when you emigrate, there's that much more to build when you arrive. Climbing the socio-economic ladder is usually the result of the combined work of multiple generations.

The (immigrant) parents or grandparents are trying their best. Some of them may well be qualified up the yazoo in their native countries, but once they come to the UK, they have to (and do) sit further examinations to convert their qualifications into ones accepted in Europe. Many immigrants started businesses here.

It's certain members of my generation who are the problem. Me? I'm educated and qualified. My parents supported and pushed me. The parents of my peers did the same. However, the 'ghetto dwellers' (that is, people who choose to dwell in ghettos because they choose not to educate themselves, choose not to gain any qualifications or meaningful employment or enterprise - not just people who happen to live in a place someone perceives as a ghetto) you seem to be referring to decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want to take that step.

 

[Zafran]

My grandparents (whom I remember) lived in a squalid 2 up 2 down terraced back to back houses with no bathroom and an outside toilet. My parents (father) fought his way out of there and progressed to provide his children with a comfortable life, a university education and prosperous future. I use the word squalid to describe the living conditions of my grandparents because, to me, looking back it was squalid. Many of the Muslim enclaves of Leicester and Bradford appear, to me, very similar if not identical to that occupied by my grandparents. It’s not a very scientific measurement but that’s it. If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

Nice sob story but EVERY IMMIGRANT story is similar or far worse many peoples great grandparents were in a similar sitiution and now lets just say They are doing better then before.

secodanly Immigrants were needed in the UK due to the low work force in the 50s/60s - it was a two way thing not a one way thing. The UK needs immigrants to do the crap jobs as most people dont want to do them - the immgrants get down and do the jobs unlike the non immgrant population. The UK doesnt only need docs and lawyers.

If you want to know low white working class places there are many ex miner towns with council estates where you can see most of the non immigrants not getting themselves out of poverty but enjoying the free ride. Why dont you rant about them??

so dont give this racist one way story look at the ex miners towns too. You have the same problem there which is bigger too.

edit - and the immigrants that came yesterday - God knows how long it will take them to climb up the social class ladder - it took many years for the 50s/60s immigrants

 

[جوري]

I would like to know what percentage of Muslim professionals (doctors, lawyers etc.,) in the UK sported the regulation fist long beard or wore the burka. With no evidence other than my own eyes I would suggest that it is minute. Why is that?

Holders of PhD's make up only 1% of the population, Medical professionals even less so. Not everyone is in pursuit of the highest education there is, I dare even say your very privileged citizens .. looking at your 'royal' family and the money they have amassed, I am wondering why they waste their time in pursuit of art history, when they can practically have a research lab for every day of the week (not to say that I don't like art history) in fact I had enough courses in the 'humanities' personally to have had it as a third major. Now, a 'Burka' is truly a personal choice. Is every nun or every Jewess in top to bottom cover in pursuit of a very professional education?

People who choose a burka have chosen to dedicate their life entirely to God, and still I have known many sisters in burkas who work as teachers and tutors and have home businesses. still with all the above in England and the unflattering style in which it was written, I see that Muslim women fare better as per the study I have quoted. Better than christians and those who believe in nothing. So perhaps the problem isn't in the clothes (but something else?) I'd examine deeper, what is being offered as opportunities in your country.. I believe England especially has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in all of Europe.. If you have a child at 13, I imagine becoming a professional wouldn't be high on your list!

In the U.S, we have many a bearded (not just Muslims) but just fully clad in their gear, strings hanging from the pants, funny hatted Jews, we also have sikhs with their turbans.. I guess the country here looks more at what you have to offer professionaly than what you are sporting on your head or your chin!

I believe the difference between UK and US Muslims is their country of origin and standard of education and level of prosperity before they emigrated,

France was too cold and Cyprus offers tax incentives for people like me to live here.

Perhaps so? My uncle is a physicist and was invited here, worked at NASA for 5 years and still they didn't offer him citizenship, now he is a professor of physics at a major canadian university. So, I really don't know what criteria goes into the selection.


(thanks for the honesty) about a tax incentive, it was quite forth coming.. I suppose that is why people seek to better their lives elsewhere?..
I know you don't want to hear it but seek the starting point of your choosing, perhaps it is best to have a better microscopic view of your region and that of places where immigration is said to be influxed from. Perhaps therein lies your answer!


all the best

 

[aadil77]

If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

lol 'Leicester ghetto' if you drive for 10 mins you'll be out that 'ghetto' and into areas with houses costing close to a million and more, with muslims living there

you know even in the 'ghettos' you get well off muslims even millionaires living there purely to be closer to the many mosques

the point is people actually want to live there, they'll move from fancy areas to be in that muslim community

 

[Zafran]

salaam

Yeah thats another reason why people live in Ghettos

1 - near mosques
2 - safety like most ethnic minorities.

 

[Thinker]

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Your grandparents and parents, while undoubtedly hard-working and loving people, were not immigrants. If you're an immigrant looking for a better life in a different country, chances are you don't have much going for you in your native country - so when you emigrate, there's that much more to build when you arrive. Climbing the socio-economic ladder is usually the result of the combined work of multiple generations.

The (immigrant) parents or grandparents are trying their best. Some of them may well be qualified up the yazoo in their native countries, but once they come to the UK, they have to (and do) sit further examinations to convert their qualifications into ones accepted in Europe. Many immigrants started businesses here.

It's certain members of my generation who are the problem. Me? I'm educated and qualified. My parents supported and pushed me. The parents of my peers did the same. However, the 'ghetto dwellers' (that is, people who choose to dwell in ghettos because they choose not to educate themselves, choose not to gain any qualifications or meaningful employment or enterprise - not just people who happen to live in a place someone perceives as a ghetto) you seem to be referring to decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want to take that step.

Indeed - but the direction of these posts started when a member here posted the below message . . . . .

the imam at our mosque has encouraged families to have as many children as possible to spread islam and strengthen the ummah. If every family has it arab style 10, 20 children then who knows how fast islam will spread.

I suggest that (immigrant or not) parents would be more likely to provide greater support and put in greater resources to a smaller family rather than a large family and that if muslims concentrated their efforts on baby production rather than accruing prosperity, they may be lots of them but they are going to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed and angry.