Was "Christ" a "Christian"?:

[جوري]

I notice that the mail was written in English.

Indeed, we can't be blamed for deficiencies in your language, we can only use what you have available if we desire communication!

Not quite a relevant answer to the issue of justice and a red herring

Quite relevant since it is the crux of your religion!

. I am sure this will also be an area of scientific investigation.

sure..

all the best

 

[fromgenesis]

Indeed, we can't be blamed for deficiencies in your language, we can only use what you have available if we desire communication!

The deficiency seems not to be with the English language as it makes provision for "it". What is the position then of the Muslim faith on the issue of gender?

Quite relevant since it is the crux of your religion!

But not the point under discussion - which was the purpose of retribution - punishment or justice.

sure..

You do not see your own contradiction?

Gossamer skye, I am not trying to win an argument as this will be real empty. It is also not my purpose to convince you. If you are to be convinced, it will be the work of the Holy Spirit who works in mysterious ways - but you will definitely know when it has happened.(John 3:1-16)

Kind regards and wishing you the best.

 

[جوري]

The deficiency seems not to be with the English language as it makes provision for "it". What is the position then of the Muslim faith on the issue of gender?

Not at all, furthermore God isn't an It. God is a supreme being. The fact that you can't wrap your mind about his being (should be understandable) however bringing him down to the low common denominator of being akin to humans or even worst animals, is merely an invention of your forefather...and if I may say blowing up in your face throughout the centuries, since no one wishes to worship an ineffectual human being!

But not the point under discussion - which was the purpose of retribution - punishment or justice.
You do not see your own contradiction?

I really don't.. I see you introducing a cockamamie route to it. Since one supreme being doesn't seem to suffice you, you create separate byways and give them ridiculous definition!

Gossamer skye, I am not trying to win an argument as this will be real empty. It is also not my purpose to convince you. If you are to be convinced, it will be the work of the Holy Spirit who works in mysterious ways - but you will definitely know when it has happened.(John 3:1-16)

Kind regards and wishing you the best.

I didn't think you were trying to win an argument. I think you seriously believe in the words you are preaching. I am merely showing you where they are deficient if not down right absurd!

2: 255 GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being. Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave? He knows all that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them,247 whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He wills [them to attain]. His eternal power248 overspreads the heavens and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And He alone is truly exalted, tremendous.


256 THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.249 Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil250 and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.


I have made the intelligent choice!

all the best

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Gossamer skye, I am not trying to win an argument as this will be real empty. It is also not my purpose to convince you. If you are to be convinced, it will be the work of the Holy Spirit who works in mysterious ways - but you will definitely know when it has happened.(John 3:1-16)

Kind regards and wishing you the best.

I have made the intelligent choice!

all the best

Alhamdulillah

 

[fromgenesis]

I really don't.. I see you introducing a cockamamie route to it. Since one supreme being doesn't seem to suffice you, you create separate byways and give them ridiculous definition!

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

 

[fromgenesis]

Alhamdulillah

Yes, quite true and such a pity that you rely on human intelligence. It would really be good if you asked God himself.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol are you for real? Did I say anything to you?

Alhamdulillah means Thank God, not a secret insult.

You're insult is uncalled for.

 

[bamboozled]

...That is one aspect that is often overlooked - that the Bible forms a coherent whole. I know that there are ministers that only concentrate on the New Testament. I believe that they miss out on the riches of the Old Testament.

Im afraid many Christians do this.

If they followed the original Gods word, instead of the even more altered New Testament, then the Christians and Muslims would have even more in common.

For example:

1. Burqa and Hijab

In the Bible it reads in 1 Timothy Ch2 V9:

"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,"

Know you could argue that peoples interpretations of modest differ, but then wouldnt Mary PBUH be an example for women.

(source - http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-9.htm - which gives other translations)

Furthermore, if you look at Mother Mary, may Allah be pleased with her. She wears what Muslims women where similar to a burqa, identical to a hijab, she is covered from head to toe with only her hands and face showing.

(Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi...n_Province.jpg)

Women in Islam cover up, in the same manner that the nuns do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nun (Look at this pics)

Do you know it says in the Bible that if a women shows of her hair, it should be shaved off.

Also

Pork in Christianity

Pork is banned in Christianity:
Or unclear and therefore should at least be avoided.

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."[Leviticus 11:7-8]

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

"Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day."
[Isaiah 65:4-5]

Of course Christians still eat it, even though there is ambiguity over it. In which case it would be best to leave it.

The Qur’an prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur’an 5:3] .

Wine is very frowned upon in Christianity:

“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise.” [Proverbs 20:1]

“And be not drunk with wine.” [Ephesians 5:18]

Prov 21:17 "where heavy drinking and gluttony are equally condemned"

1 Sam 1:14; Isa 5:11, 22; 28:1 'drunkenness is condemned'

(The list goes on here http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol)

Jesus PBUH and his beard
More Muslim men grow beards than Christians and we are associated with terrorism, Jesus PBUH has a beard, is he a terrorist? No, of course not.

I have never understood my mainstream Christians dont grow beards, and follow who they believe to be God. Wouldnt they want to be more like him?

(another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. (Source http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=...7&I temid=100))

Did God ever called Himself a Muslim?

Why would God call himself a Muslim? I know you are trying to say therefore why would Jesus PBUH call himself a Christian. But if Jesus was indeed God, why would be only be sent for the Jews, which he says himself (discussed lower down)

Jesus PBUH however did call himself a Muslim, its mentioned in the Quran in several places. There is even a chapter dedicated to Mary PBUH, the Bible does not even have such a thing.

Some verses that Jesus PBUH is mentioned in the Quran as a Muslim Include
Surah Ale Imran Ch3 V52
Surah Al Ma'idah Ch5 V116

Jesus PBUH himself says he was only sent for the Jews
'least of which the Jews' to which this specific said god was said t be sent!
15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Also, Jesus PBUH was not called 'Jesus' PBUH, that was not his name. In the origninal language it refers to Jesus PBUH as esaa(or something very similar I cannot remember) and we call him Isa PBUH in the Quran. Sheikh Ahmed Deedat brought up this point, on a youtube video. I will see if I can find it as a soruce.

I really could go on

 

[rpwelton]

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

Ever heard of something called forgiveness?

Laws in Islam are for the betterment of humanity. Punishments in Shari'a are a deterrent, and Muslim countries that operate by Shari'a are the better for it.

 

[bamboozled]

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

Hi,

you were saying that someone else didnt really answer your question, so I will give it a bash.

To be honest, I think the reason it was not replied to is because its hard to understand your point.

I think what you are saying is why do we believe that God will punish us for our sins, when we break His laws (i think) and how is he therefore merciful.

We Muslims follow Allahs command. We Muslims are not perfect and we break his commands but Allah is indeed the most forgiving.

It is narrated in in hadith AHMAD that:

The devil said yo his Lord(Allah):By your Majesty and Might, I will keep on trying to misguide mankind as long as their souls are in their bodies. His lord said to him: by my Majesty and Might, I will continue to forgive them so long as they seek my forgivness. :statisfie (I love Allahs words)

But then why does God punish us for our wrong sins, when he chooses on a rare occasion not to forgive us (Allah says my mercy out weights my anger- anyone help we out with a reference please). Because he is FAIR, HE IS JUST.

Allah says if he wills, he will forgive anything but Shirk.

But at the same time God is Just. Let me ask you, if someone raped or killed someones mother or killed their child, would you want them to be punished? Or Forgiven. Be honest.

In Christianity you belive that "god died for your sins", where is the justice in that. In the Quran Surah 53 Verse 38/39 It reads "no soul shall bear the burden of another". Jesus PBUH will not suffer for my sins, because thats not fair, not Just. I dont want him to suffer because of what I dont. Nor do I want to suffer because of what someone else does. Its not fair

In Islam saying your sorry and geniuely repenting is only the first step. Our actions have repurcutions. That does not neccesarily mean we will go to hell or get punished. It could mean that someone of our good deeds are given to the father of the man who lost his child. Or if we dont have enough good deeds then we suffer some of his time in hell for him (if he has any that God has not forgiven) as that person that killed his Son, caused him hell on earth. It is FAIR.

Islam is Just, fair and forgiving. If a child hits his brother, his mother will tell him off, but she loves him and does it for his own good and she will say dont do that (the the Quran has the do's and donts, the punishment is a repellent to keep us away from becoming evil people). The mother would not say oh its okay, that you hit him.

No law of any country lets you kill someone and then say, you will not go to jail because Jesus PBUH died for your sins. Because the world knows its not FAIR, NOT PRACTICAL, NOT JUST.

In Muslims countries do you know if you steal (unless it is for food for a starving family) then you can have you hand cut off. Do you know Muslim courties have the lowest theft rates, and rape rates. Its a deterrent. Islam is the solution to all the problems of makind.

 

[fromgenesis]

Lol are you for real? Did I say anything to you?

Alhamdulillah means Thank God, not a secret insult.

You're insult is uncalled for.

No insult intended. Sorry if I did. Thank God that you rely on intelligence rather than Himself? Still a pity.

 

[bamboozled]

Thank God that you rely on intelligence rather than Himself? Still a pity.

What?

You are basically saying sorry if I insulted you, I didn't mean to. Then subtly insulting the person.

Calm down, its a friendly debate bro. It does seem that becasue you cannot reply to the arguments you are talking down a little on people.

C'mon know lets be civilized.

 

[fromgenesis]

If they followed the original Gods word, instead of the even more altered New Testament, then the Christians and Muslims would have even more in common.

For example:

1. Burqa and Hijab

In the Bible it reads in 1 Timothy Ch2 V9:

"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,"

Know you could argue that peoples interpretations of modest differ, but then wouldnt Mary PBUH be an example for women.

(source - http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-9.htm - which gives other translations)

Furthermore, if you look at Mother Mary, may Allah be pleased with her. She wears what Muslims women where similar to a burqa, identical to a hijab, she is covered from head to toe with only her hands and face showing.

(Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi...n_Province.jpg)

Women in Islam cover up, in the same manner that the nuns do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nun (Look at this pics)

Do you know it says in the Bible that if a women shows of her hair, it should be shaved off.

Referring to dress of woman that call themselves Christian. I could not agree more with you. Although I may be old fashioned and the argument raised that God looks at the heart and not the outward, my response would be that the outward reflects the heart. I stand in shame at the manner in which some woman dress.
Also

Pork in Christianity

Pork is banned in Christianity:
Or unclear and therefore should at least be avoided.

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."[Leviticus 11:7-8]

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

"Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day."
[Isaiah 65:4-5]

Of course Christians still eat it, even though there is ambiguity over it. In which case it would be best to leave it.

The Qur’an prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur’an 5:3] .

Jesus told the Pharisees that it is not that which man eat, defile him, but that which comes out of the heart.
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
But if you are unsure (or offend a brother) you should abstain
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is ****ed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Wine is very frowned upon in Christianity:

“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise.” [Proverbs 20:1]

“And be not drunk with wine.” [Ephesians 5:18]

Prov 21:17 "where heavy drinking and gluttony are equally condemned"

1 Sam 1:14; Isa 5:11, 22; 28:1 'drunkenness is condemned'

(The list goes on here http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol)

I think it is good to abstain from alcoholic beverages and specifically to abuse it. You are right. I do not believe that the moderate consumption of wine is wrong. Jesus changed water into wine. Again it is not the specific item, but that which is in the heart. Wine and alcohol can lead to much problems and is a sensitive issue for many. Rather stay away - but it in itself is no sin. Things in themselves are not problems, it is what we do with it. In the same manner your eyes could cause you to sin, but your eyes in themselves are not sinful.

Jesus PBUH and his beard
More Muslim men grow beards than Christians and we are associated with terrorism, Jesus PBUH has a beard, is he a terrorist? No, of course not.

I have never understood my mainstream Christians dont grow beards, and follow who they believe to be God. Wouldnt they want to be more like him?

Again I think that outward signs are not what it is all about. We should rather follow Jesus in what He did, rather than the outward signs of who He is.But beards are nice

(another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. ())Source http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=...7&I temid=100

If you do not accept the Bible as the truth, then evidence may be scant.However, in the Bible, the following speaks for itself:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Some verses that Jesus PBUH is mentioned in the Quran as a Muslim Include
Surah Ale Imran Ch3 V52
Surah Al Ma'idah Ch5 V116

I am sure you are correct that it is mentioned like that in the Quor'an. That does however not follow that what Jesus taught is similar to what is being taught by Muslims. To the contrary, the very opposite of many things. But I suppose the problem is that you do not accept the Bible and the teachings of Christ. For one, who Jesus was, his death and resurrection.

Jesus PBUH himself says he was only sent for the Jews
'least of which the Jews' to which this specific said god was said t be sent!
15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

It is true - the Jews had to reject Christ- in the will of the Father. A complete answer on this will only lead me to speculate. It is however also very obvious that Jesus' message is for every tribe and nation - as was His request Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:No, we cannot get away with that -Jesus' message is for each of us - to accept or to reject

Hope I answered your questions to some satisfaction.

 

[fromgenesis]

Ever heard of something called forgiveness?

Laws in Islam are for the betterment of humanity. Punishments in Shari'a are a deterrent, and Muslim countries that operate by Shari'a are the better for it.

Yes, of course their is forgiveness. But does forgiveness exclude justice? This is an argument many Christians use as well - God will forgive. They can live a life based on their likes and dislikes and what they make God out to be. He has however revealed in his Word that there is a day of reckoning/judgement. From the Christian point of view (based on the Bible), I am unable to stand before God and argue with Him about my holiness - I stand guilty for the sins I have done. On what basis then can God be just and have mercy? God in his mercy has provided the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that justice is done - Jesus paid for my sins on the cross. His mercy is a gift I do not deserve.

I notice with some trepidation that punishment does not have to be just - it must only act as a deterrent. I agree that this works really well as it does limit crime etc.

 

[fromgenesis]

What?

You are basically saying sorry if I insulted you, I didn't mean to. Then subtly insulting the person.

Calm down, its a friendly debate bro. It does seem that becasue you cannot reply to the arguments you are talking down a little on people.

C'mon know lets be civilized.

Hi bro, I see this as nothing else but a friendly debate. My subtlety amaze me as I had no intention of insulting anyone. The only intention is to indicate that human intelligence fall far short and God is the ultimate answer- Whom we can approach.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

No insult intended. Sorry if I did. Thank God that you rely on intelligence rather than Himself? Still a pity.

What in the world. Is that all you know how to do, insult? I'm starting to wonder if you're mentally unstable?

How much more are you willing to contradict yourself? You're full of nonsense. I don't need pity from the likes of you, but rather, I pity someone like you.

 

[rpwelton]

Yes, of course their is forgiveness. But does forgiveness exclude justice? This is an argument many Christians use as well - God will forgive. They can live a life based on their likes and dislikes and what they make God out to be. He has however revealed in his Word that there is a day of reckoning/judgement. From the Christian point of view (based on the Bible), I am unable to stand before God and argue with Him about my holiness - I stand guilty for the sins I have done. On what basis then can God be just and have mercy? God in his mercy has provided the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that justice is done - Jesus paid for my sins on the cross. His mercy is a gift I do not deserve.

I notice with some trepidation that punishment does not have to be just - it must only act as a deterrent. I agree that this works really well as it does limit crime etc.

God is Most Just, and He forgives whom He wills. Our argument is not the Christian argument; we believe that unless we repent and turn away from sin, God will punish us. However, we also hope for His mercy. A Muslim lives in a balance between the two (hope and fear).

We do not justify any sin by saying "God will forgive us, no problem". We must come to Him in prayer and sincerely ask for forgiveness and give up our sinful ways. This is far different than the doctrine of some Christians who say God will forgive all sin, therefor sin is OK. That is an unacceptable position in Islam, and it is nothing short of arrogance.

We do not know how God is going to judge us, although He has spelled out guidelines in the Qur'an relating to the punishment for various sins that a person commits. Ultimately He can forgive whom He wants, but we also understand that He is Most Just and Most Merciful.

The Christian idea of Jesus dying for the sins of the world is nonsense; where is the justice in that? An innocent man (or was it God, I get confused) is sacrificed because God can't forgive the sins of man? Astaughfirallah (that means "O Allah forgive me"). Does...not...compute.

Although we do not compare Allah to His creation, this is like a game creator who makes his game so difficult that not a single person can beat the game without a cheat code that allows them to win the game. What's the point in that? Why would God create this life as a test if He's just going to give us a free pass? Shouldn't we all be accountable for our actions?

 

[A-Believer-25]

Jesus (Peace be upon him) is a Muslim. All Prophets of God are Muslims

 

[Uthman]

Jesus (Peace be upon him) is a Muslim. All Prophets of God are Muslims

Good point. In the linguistic sense, Prophet 'Isa (peace be upon him) was a Muslim, since by linguistic definition, a Muslim is one who submits himself to the will of God.

 

[bamboozled]

Yes, of course their is forgiveness. But does forgiveness exclude justice? This is an argument many Christians use as well - God will forgive. They can live a life based on their likes and dislikes and what they make God out to be. He has however revealed in his Word that there is a day of reckoning/judgement. From the Christian point of view (based on the Bible), I am unable to stand before God and argue with Him about my holiness - I stand guilty for the sins I have done. On what basis then can God be just and have mercy? God in his mercy has provided the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that justice is done - Jesus paid for my sins on the cross. His mercy is a gift I do not deserve.

I notice with some trepidation that punishment does not have to be just - it must only act as a deterrent. I agree that this works really well as it does limit crime etc.

Did you read my thread that responded to your points above (its was my 2nd post in this thread) it responds to all your points. About justice and punishment, check it out. Page 2.