Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

[Rasema]

Sorry my last post was a mess.

"Let us suppose one can trace a book back to its author - would that mean it is therefore a Holy book? I cannot be sure what your argument is here but one supposes your chain of narrators goes back to the Prophet so was he the author of the Qu'ran?"



We don't SUPPOSE that we trace a reveleation, we can trace back the reveleation of the Qur'an to Muhammad,saws.

The chain of narrations proves the reveleation ORIGINAL. Therefore, this is the purpose of my argument that the Qur'an is original Qur'an and that the Bible isn't, so, that is why we don't use it. The Qur'an was not written as a narrative or a book. In fact the Qur'an is not a book. While Bible means a book, Qur'an means recitaion. God called it a recitation because he made it a FORM of poetry, pose, rhyme so people can memorize it from top to cover.

Muhamamd was illeterate. So, he can not be an author. People coultn't write at the time. There was no schools neither did books exist so writting was not used. The Qur'an is Muhammad,saws, walking. He knew it by memory.



"I have no idea what this is about Christians and the Jews as if they have completely separate manuscript collections of the Old Testament - do you really think that?"



No, I said that the Septuagist disagrees with the Hebrew Torah of the Jews in 1900 instances. The purpose I said this is to show that there was attribution of men to the Bible. Again, I don't "think" I don't want to "think" this verse is by men this by God. Because we don't know and I don't want to reject words of God and accept words of men. CAN I MAKE MY SELF ANY CLEARER????


"I doubt that ALL Muslims do this and many other people pray regularly and work hard but Christians and Jews revere their parents but only worship God"

The purpose I said this is not that Christians don't obey their parants!
I said this because the argument was that we Muslims don't need the Bible. We only need the Qur'an to be Muslims.

 

[Rasema]

Dear Rasema:

You do not need the Qur'an to be a Muslim. You only need to submit to God to be a Muslim.

Regards,
Grenville

Dear Grenville:statisfie

No,there is more to submitting to God. We are not just obligated to pray five times a day but much more.

I meant it this way. Lets suppose that the Qur'an was never revealed. How would I know not to partnership with God etc...
How would I know who God is?
Well, we don't know who God is. We just know that we don't know who he is.
The way God is, is the way he named himself in the Qur'an. There are 99 of these characteristics. One is Alemin which is Lord of the creation,of everything,wills everything.

Exalted he is.
Peace

 

[GreyKode]

You are just so hard-headed and insistent on asserting your belief no matter how many times you get refuted....*sigh*

Hi abu_musab461:

Let me respond to each of your concerns.

1. The Messenger

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. (Praised One)" But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (61:6)​

Islamic religious tradition interprets Ahmad as Mohammed. However, I can find no supporting information for this interpretation in the Qur’an. The Gospel teaches that the Messenger is the Holy Spirit.

First : Stop using this tactic of denying "Islamic Religious Tradition", you yourselves agree that not all the bible is God's word, part of it is historical narration. Why doesn't that count as "Christian religious tradition"?

Second : The gospels are historical accounts of Jesus(pbuh) through eyewitnesses (though some of it you believe is Jesus(pbuh) words), isn't that what you believe?.
Why in the World do you want us dismiss all the historical accounts of the prophet muhammad(pbuh) with chains of narration all the way to eyewitnesses(i.e. highly reliable accounts), who was the Qur'an revealed to?, what are all the "Say,(O'Muhammad)...." phrases doing in the Qur'an?, and yet you claim nothing in the Qur'an supports the view that Ahmad is muhammad(pbuh).

Third: Where is the harmony between holy spirit and ahmad?????

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14:26)​

What is the Holy spirit?Can you explain to me what it is without using "Christian Religious Tradition".


2. God having a Son

The rejection of God having a son is consequential to the rejection of God having a wife, and a resultant child through sexual intercourse.

Sorry, that's only your opinion. The polytheists used to consider some of the Idols as GOD's children (and they can't be in the sense you just indicated to since there was no wife), but they thought of them as intercessors.
When you agree on a definition to "GOD's" son I will respond more clearly?
Is he equal to GOD?
Is he unique?
Can he intercede or judge on behalf of GOD?
Does he have the knowledge of everything?

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. (6:101 )​

This is not a Biblical concept.
Remember "No Christian Religious Tradition"

3. Biblical Qur’anic Harmony



Please note that the Bible does not support polytheism. Let me reiterate that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an without compromising any teaching in either book. However, there is no harmony between Christian and Islamic religious traditions.

4. Corrupted Bible



I understand that Islamic religious tradition teaches this; however, it is in conflict with the Qur’an and the historical record.

How about if I get you verses from the Qur'an that says contrary to that?


In 4:136, Muslims are instructed to believe the Books sent before, and not to deny them. Verses 3:84 and 6:84-89 identifies these books, which are those contained in the Bible. 6:90 then gives the following instruction.

Muslims are to believe what is in harmony with the Qur'an, otherwise you tell me, why was the Qur'an sent?

Those were they who received God's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations." (6:84–90)​

To avoid complying with this Qur’anic instruction, Islamic religious tradition decided that the Bible was corrupted beyond redemption. However, the copies of the Bible that were around during Mohammed’s time, which He instructed be believed and copied, are available to us today.

Oh, and you got this from where?, Christian or Islamic Tradition.Youre simply trying to fill in the gaps by making things up.

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. (4:136)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Dear Grenville:statisfie

No,there is more to submitting to God. We are not just obligated to pray five times a day but much more.

I meant it this way. Lets suppose that the Qur'an was never revealed. How would I know not to partnership with God etc...
How would I know who God is?
Well, we don't know who God is. We just know that we don't know who he is.
The way God is, is the way he named himself in the Qur'an. There are 99 of these characteristics. One is Alemin which is Lord of the creation,of everything,wills everything.

Exalted he is.
Peace

Dear Rasema:

Please note that Muslims were around before the time of Mohammed. Remember that Jesus’ disciples identified themselves as Muslims.

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (3:52)​

Actually, before the Qur’an, Gospel, or Jewish scriptures were written, we have the goal of all of us, to cultivate a relationship with God.

Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (4:125)​

So if there were no scriptures, you would know the Truth because of your relationship with God, who is the subject of the Old Testament, Gospels, and Qur’an.

Dear Rasema, may you cultivate a personal relationship with God during, and following this Ramadan period, and may God grant you the wisdom not to be restrained by unsupported religious traditions (both Christian and Islamic).

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[Rasema]

Peace

I believe in the previous, original scriptures revealed to previous prophets but I do not use them because I have the Qur'an and that is all I'm interested in.

Anyone who believes in God should have a reason to believe that God does not create in vain. That there is a way in which God wants us to live. God gives us life and a way of life which is Islam. He wants to know which one of us will be more pious.

I used to follow things opposite to Islam. My relationship with God didn't help me ralise that that is wrong. For example, when I'm suppose to pick up the food I droped and eat it, instead I left it there because that's my cultures tradition.

Thank you

 

[Walter]

Dear GreyKode:

Please note that none of my positions have been refuted – not one. Now on to your comments.

First : Stop using this tactic of denying "Islamic Religious Tradition", you yourselves agree that not all the bible is God's word, part of it is historical narration. Why doesn't that count as "Christian religious tradition"?

GreyKode, I have repeatedly stated that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an. I have also stated that there is no harmony between Christian and Islamic religious tradition. There is also no harmony between the Bible and Islamic religious tradition. I am not denying Islamic religious tradition, I am simply stating that where it conflicts with the teachings of the Qur’an, that the Qur’an should take priority.

Second : The gospels are historical accounts of Jesus(pbuh) through eyewitnesses (though some of it you believe is Jesus(pbuh) words), isn't that what you believe? Why in the World do you want us dismiss all the historical accounts of the prophet muhammad(pbuh) with chains of narration all the way to eyewitnesses(i.e. highly reliable accounts), who was the Qur'an revealed to?, what are all the "Say,(O'Muhammad)...." phrases doing in the Qur'an?, and yet you claim nothing in the Qur'an supports the view that Ahmad is muhammad(pbuh).

GreyKode, I am not asking anyone to dismiss the historical accounts of Mohammed. Please read my first response. Where the historical accounts conflict with the Qur’an, then the Qur’an should take priority.

Third: Where is the harmony between holy spirit and ahmad?????

‘Ahmad’ is only mentioned once in the Qur’an. Therefore, since the Qur’an refers the reader to the Gospel, we can learn from there who Jesus said would come after Him. As I said, the Qur’an cannot be properly understood without a knowledge of the Bible, to which the Qur’an refers the reader.

Now on to your questions.

When you agree on a definition to "GOD's" son I will respond more clearly?
Is he equal to GOD?

You have heard Me [Jesus] say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)​

Since Jesus claimed that the Father is greater that Him, then it appears that Jesus is not equal to God.

Is he unique?

And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. … Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” (Luke 1:31, 34)​

A virgin birth is quite unique.

Can he intercede or judge on behalf of GOD?

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (John 5:26-30)​

So God has given Jesus, the Messiah, authority to judge, and Jesus judges according to God’s will. That is why it is such an unnecessary tragedy for Islamic religious tradition to point adherents away from the Messiah.

Does he have the knowledge of everything?

“But that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)​

Since the Jesus declared that there was knowledge that He did not know, Jesus does not appear to have knowledge of everything.

Muslims are to believe what is in harmony with the Qur'an, otherwise you tell me, why was the Qur'an sent?

The Qur’an states that it was sent as a guide to Mohammed, for him to: learn wisdom, preach glad tidings, and warn sinners. It is also a reminder to those who fear God, and that men may fear God and be guided in the right way.

Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!" (41:44b)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Ramadhan]

Let us suppose one can trace a book back to its author - would that mean it is therefore a Holy book?

unbroken chain of narration/transmission is one of conditions to ensure the (holy) book is uncorrupted. And being holy/divine, a book must be uncorrupted beyond any shadow of a doubt. A holy book must be held to the highest standards of all to ensure that information contained is not false/tainted.
In everyday live, We are so critical of any false information, so why should we not also be critical of most important book/books of all?

 

[GreyKode]

Dear GreyKode:

Please note that none of my positions have been refuted – not one. Now on to your comments.

You kep deluding yourself anyway here I go.



GreyKode, I have repeatedly stated that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an. I have also stated that there is no harmony between Christian and Islamic religious tradition. There is also no harmony between the Bible and Islamic religious tradition. I am not denying Islamic religious tradition, I am simply stating that where it conflicts with the teachings of the Qur’an, that the Qur’an should take priority.

Show me one instance where there is conflict between Qur'an and hadith? Just ONE



GreyKode, I am not asking anyone to dismiss the historical accounts of Mohammed. Please read my first response. Where the historical accounts conflict with the Qur’an, then the Qur’an should take priority.

Same nonsense, show me one instance



‘Ahmad’ is only mentioned once in the Qur’an. Therefore, since the Qur’an refers the reader to the Gospel, we can learn from there who Jesus said would come after Him. As I said, the Qur’an cannot be properly understood without a knowledge of the Bible, to which the Qur’an refers the reader.

Utter rubbish and deception, show me one instance where it says in the Qur'an you need the bible? Never once has the bible been needed to explain the Qur'an.

Now on to your questions.

You have heard Me [Jesus] say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)​

Since Jesus claimed that the Father is greater that Him, then it appears that Jesus is not equal to God.

Conclusion, he is human and not to be worshipped besides GOD.

And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. … Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” (Luke 1:31, 34)​

A virgin birth is quite unique.

Nice try, this very example of yours has been refuted by the Qur'an where it says that the example of Jesus(pbuh) is like that of Adam, i.e. Adam(pbuh) has neither father nor mother, even in your bible Malachezidik(if that's spelled correctly) has neither beginning nor end no father nor mother.

My Question was what makes him a unique son of GOD from the rest of the "biblical sons of GOD"

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (John 5:26-30)​

So God has given Jesus, the Messiah, authority to judge, and Jesus judges according to God’s will. That is why it is such an unnecessary tragedy for Islamic religious tradition to point adherents away from the Messiah.

Looks like you never read the Qur'an and your knowledge of it is extremely superficial.

This is in complete contradiction with Qur'an

“But that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)​

Since the Jesus declared that there was knowledge that He did not know, Jesus does not appear to have knowledge of everything.

Conclusion, no more than a human prophet(pbuh).


The Qur’an states that it was sent as a guide to Mohammed, for him to: learn wisdom, preach glad tidings, and warn sinners. It is also a reminder to those who fear God, and that men may fear God and be guided in the right way.

Again you display your superficial knowledge of the Qur'an
1/3 of the Qur'an is directed to the Jews and christians to believe in the prophet muhammad(pbuh) and to correct their false understandings of associating partners with GOD(christians) and Jews.

On the other hand, Jesus(pbuh) was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel and you insist on denying this by showing the verse that goes "Baptize all nations in the name of....." (which I personally based on the opinion of your scholars is an addition not "Islamic Tradition"), at best is a contradiction in the position of the bible

Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!" (41:44b)​

Regards,
Grenville

One last question: "How should people treat Jesus(pbuh)?"
After you don't consider him as GOD anymore, do you pray to him?, do you call upon him? tell me, what should be his status.

 

[Walter]

Dear GreyKode:

I trust that you enjoyed Ramadan. I will now respond to each of your concerns.

1. Conflict between the Qur’an and Islamic religious tradition

Show me one instance where there is conflict between Qur'an and hadith? Just ONE

I said that there are numerous instances where Islamic religious tradition conflicts with the Qur’an. Many are described in detail in Brothers Kept Apart. For example, Islamic religious tradition teaches that the Bible has been corrupted in direct opposition to the Qur’an.

2. Muslims must read the Bible.

Utter rubbish and deception, show me one instance where it says in the Qur'an you need the bible? Never once has the bible been needed to explain the Qur'an."

In 4:136, Muslims are instructed to believe the Books sent before, and not to deny them. Verses 3:84 and 6:84-89 identifies these books, which are those contained in the Bible. 6:90 then gives the following instruction.

Those were they who received God's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations." (6:84–90)​

As previously explained, the copies of the Bible that were around during Mohammed’s time, which He instructed be believed and copied, are available to us today.

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. (4:136)​

Grey Kode, how do you define “the scripture which He sent to those before” and “His Books”?

3. Jesus

My Question was what makes him a unique son of GOD from the rest of the "biblical sons of GOD"

OK GreyKode, since a virgin birth is not unique to you, then please provide a list of persons who were also born of a virgin? However, since you have redefined your question, Jesus is also unique because He existed before the creation of the world.

Looks like you never read the Qur'an and your knowledge of it is extremely superficial. This is in complete contradiction with Qur'an

No GreyKode. It is not in conflict with the Qur'an, but it is in conflict with the aspects of Islamic religious tradition which are in conflict with the Qur’an.

Conclusion, no more than a human prophet(pbuh).

You are correct GreyKode. Islamic religious tradition teaches that Jesus was “no more than a human prophet”. However, both the Bible and the Qur’an explicitly teach that Jesus is a prophet and the Messiah. You now have an opportunity to accept or reject either the Qur’anic teaching or the contradictory Islamic religious tradition. You decide.

4. To whom was Jesus sent

On the other hand, Jesus(pbuh) was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel and you insist on denying this by showing the verse that goes "Baptize all nations in the name of....." (which I personally based on the opinion of your scholars is an addition not "Islamic Tradition"), at best is a contradiction in the position of the bible

GreyKode, you are arguing with so many people that you are confusing me with someone else – I did not mention the verse you referenced. However, since you brought it up. Jesus was sent to Israel. Jesus then sent His disciples to every nation.

One last question: "How should people treat Jesus(pbuh)?" After you don't consider him as GOD anymore, do you pray to him?, do you call upon him? tell me, what should be his status.

Dear GreyKode. Jesus’ status should be exactly as described in the Bible and the Qur’an, and not as He is described in Christian and Islamic religious traditions.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[rpwelton]

Grenville, Bible scholars themselves have admitted the Bible has been corrupted over time; it's an indisputable fact.

Also, please explain how the hadith contradict the Qur'an about Jesus.

 

[Hugo]

Grenville, Bible scholars themselves have admitted the Bible has been corrupted over time; it's an indisputable fact.

Also, please explain how the hadith contradict the Qur'an about Jesus.

It is also an undisputed fact that one can reconstruct the original from the manuscripts we have.

 

[rpwelton]

It is also an undisputed fact that one can reconstruct the original from the manuscripts we have.

How do you know what the originals look like when you don't have them?

 

[YusufNoor]

It is also an undisputed fact that one can reconstruct the original from the manuscripts we have.

College Professor and New Testament Scholar Bart D. Ehrman disputes that fact. thus your statement is a lie. You CANNOT construct the originals if you don't know what the were.

Professors Luke Timothy Johnson and Richard Elliott Friedman, a Hebrew
scholar, both concede additions to the Torah

you are off on BOTH Testaments.

are lies the only means at your disposal to defend you religion?

that's a shame...

 

[GreyKode]

Dear GreyKode:

I trust that you enjoyed Ramadan. I will now respond to each of your concerns.
Thankyou very much, it was all thanks to ALLAH(swt) an excellent ramadan, I wish you a good fasting too, whenever its time for you .
I am sorry to tell you this but honestly I don't want to continue in this debate because its pointless, to you your religion and to me mine, nevertheless I will respond to your points

1. Conflict between the Qur’an and Islamic religious tradition



I said that there are numerous instances where Islamic religious tradition conflicts with the Qur’an. Many are described in detail in Brothers Kept Apart. For example, Islamic religious tradition teaches that the Bible has been corrupted in direct opposition to the Qur’an.

You insist on this claim yet neither me nor any of the muslim scholars who represent the "muslim" viewpoint find any contradiction, maybe the author of your book likes to reinterpret things he read in the Qur'an as he likes but that's not how we do things in Islam according to the teachings of the prophet(pbuh).
You say "bible corruption is in direct opposition to the Qur'an", I don't know how can you possibly back that claim, this is one of the reasons why I am not going on further in the discussion.

2. Muslims must read the Bible.

Again *sigh*, nowhere in the Qur'an it says that, infact it says in the Qur'an that the Qur'an is a supervisor and protector and abrogator of what came before it

In 4:136, Muslims are instructed to believe the Books sent before, and not to deny them. Verses 3:84 and 6:84-89 identifies these books, which are those contained in the Bible. 6:90 then gives the following instruction.

Those were they who received God's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations." (6:84–90)​

The only verse of relevance is no. 90, all it says is that the prophet muhammad(pbuh) should tell the people to follow the ways of the previous prophets and from the context 6:84-6:89, the ways are those mentioned in the Qur'an





OK GreyKode, since a virgin birth is not unique to you, then please provide a list of persons who were also born of a virgin? However, since you have redefined your question, Jesus is also unique because He existed before the creation of the world.

I answered this before and you repeat the question again, Adam(pbuh)



No GreyKode. It is not in conflict with the Qur'an, but it is in conflict with the aspects of Islamic religious tradition which are in conflict with the Qur’an.
Just your opinion



You are correct GreyKode. Islamic religious tradition teaches that Jesus was “no more than a human prophet”. However, both the Bible and the Qur’an explicitly teach that Jesus is a prophet and the Messiah. You now have an opportunity to accept or reject either the Qur’anic teaching or the contradictory Islamic religious tradition. You decide.
You say I am correct, do you mean that it is true and you believe that he was only a human prophet? what are you affirming?
How does being a messiah make him more than a human?
From what little I know, according to the bible the messiah is human.
I know very well what the Qur'an about jesus
"The messiah Jesus son of mary is no more than a messenger, other messengers have passed before him....."
and according to that I made my decision.




Dear GreyKode. Jesus’ status should be exactly as described in the Bible and the Qur’an, and not as He is described in Christian and Islamic religious traditions.

Spell it out. HOW IS HE TO BE TREATED?

Regards,
Grenville

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance.

 

[Humbler_359]

I advised you to read this book, it is excellent. Please keep in mind that the author Mohamed Ghounem (also revert) and accurate.

Read people's reviews who purchased this book.

" I'm an Ex-Christian who was a daily Bible reader for many years until after the questions kept building up and eventually became overwhelming. I did not think Islam was an option because of how some Muslims or so-called Muslims portray Islam, but this book gives an incredible blueprint detailing a systematic pattern on how the Bible problems that drove me away from Christianity in the past, are solved in the Quran and are now pulling me closer to God again. Pray for me to accept Islam, this book has given me a very nice push. I checked the ways in this book against the Bible along with another Ex-Christian for any mis-quotes or misuse of context, the book almost always gives a solid case. The God of Islam is obviously a loving God to offer a rescue guide for souls like mine."


Source


P.S: I have this book since 2007, I recommended you to purchase it. My Christian friends couldn't believe it as they learned many errors in bible. :statisfie

:wa:

 

[Humbler_359]

Second book- very interesting and fascinating points also by Dr. Maurice Bucaille reverts too.

Source


Free PDF file

 

[Walter]

Hi Rpwelton:

Grenville, Bible scholars themselves have admitted the Bible has been corrupted over time; it's an indisputable fact.

You need to define the term corrupted. Biblical scholars normally set a very high standard for themselves. If a word is slightly misspelled, then that counts as a corruption. However, it does not change the message of the text.

I had previously noted that both the Bible and the Qur’an are vulnerable to similar arguments of corruption. Further, regardless of the evidence provided, you are unlikely to convince a Christian or a Muslim that their book is not correct. Therefore, arguing about claims of corruption in either book is an exercise in futility. However, if you wish to discuss it, we can do so in another thread.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Hi GreyKode:

I am sorry to tell you this but honestly I don't want to continue in this debate because its pointless, to you your religion and to me mine, nevertheless I will respond to your points

You have identified the principal problem. I was hoping for a discussion where we could have realized a clearer description of the Truth. However, it has turned into a debate where all of the compelling evidence presented is simply dismissed in order that Islamic religious tradition can be defended.

Whenever you asked for evidence, I provided it, and then it was simply dismissed. You asked about evidence to back up the claim that the Qur’an does not support the Islamic religious tradition that the Bible was corrupted. How about the following.

No just estimate of God do they make when they say: "Nothing doth God send down to man" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?—a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much: therein were ye taught that which ye knew not—neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "God": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6:91)​

The Qur’an charges that religious leaders presented the scriptures for show, but concealed much of it. Islamic religious tradition has interpreted these types of verses to mean that the Bible itself has been corrupted. But that is not what the verse states. The Qur’an does not deny the availability or accuracy of the scriptures, but condemns the religious leaders’ corrupt practices.

Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations." (6:90)​

However, rather than copying the guidance as instructed by the Qur’an, Islamic religious tradition has declared that the information to be copied is corrupted in the Bible but preserved in the Qur’an. That is not what the verse states. Further, the Biblical scriptures that were available during Mohammed’s lifetime, which he encouraged his followers to believe, are available to us today.

I answered this before and you repeat the question again, Adam(pbuh)

I have repeated it because Adam was not born of a virgin. Neither the Bible nor the Qur’an nor Islamic religious tradition teaches this. So I asked you again, yet you have repeated the same thing.

How does being a messiah make him more than a human?
From what little I know, according to the bible the messiah is human.
I know very well what the Qur'an about jesus
"The messiah Jesus son of mary is no more than a messenger, other messengers have passed before him....."
and according to that I made my decision.

GreyKode. Islamic religious tradition is making the same mistakes that Christian religious tradition had made. Rather than simply teach what has been revealed, they tried to speculate on the why and the how, which was not revealed. Some of these speculative opinions, over time, developed into doctrines (mandatory beliefs) with harmful consequences for those who chose not to believe.

What has been revealed, both in the Bible and the Qur’an, is that Jesus is the Messiah. It is then for us to decide whether we will accept or reject Him and the provision that He has made for us.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[GreyKode]

Hi GreyKode:

No just estimate of God do they make when they say: "Nothing doth God send down to man" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?—a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much: therein were ye taught that which ye knew not—neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "God": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6:91)​

I find the problem is that you are sticking only to quotes from the Qur'an that are apparently preferred by the author of your book
There is the following verse that shows the position of the Qur'an on the book of the Jews:
"Wa menna allatheena hado yuharrifuna al kalema an mawadi'ih "
"And from those who are yahud they change the original meanings of the words of the book "
And there are other verses as well...
See now who is dismissing the facts.

Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations." (6:90)​

Answered previously




However, rather than copying the guidance as instructed by the Qur’an, Islamic religious tradition has declared that the information to be copied is corrupted in the Bible but preserved in the Qur’an. That is not what the verse states.

It DOESN'T say copy, it says do as they did, follow their path, their path as explained in the Qur'an

Further, the Biblical scriptures that were available during Mohammed’s lifetime, which he encouraged his followers to believe, are available to us today.
I disagree.



I have repeated it because Adam was not born of a virgin. Neither the Bible nor the Qur’an nor Islamic religious tradition teaches this. So I asked you again, yet you have repeated the same thing.

Is it really that hard to see??
I am telling you all you got is some qoutes from the Qur'an cherrypicked by the author of the book to serve his point of view and you didn't read the rest of the Qur'an yourself, Adam(pbuh) neither father nor mother, Jesus(pbuh) no father, see the relationship now, who is more unique?




GreyKode. Islamic religious tradition is making the same mistakes that Christian religious tradition had made. Rather than simply teach what has been revealed, they tried to speculate on the why and the how, which was not revealed. Some of these speculative opinions, over time, developed into doctrines (mandatory beliefs) with harmful consequences for those who chose not to believe.
Again that's your personal opinion so it doesn't matter here, infact jews believe nothing suggests the divinity of Jesus(pbuh) in the OT.
Nobody who has ever read the Qur'an, other than you sir, understood any special status to Jesus(pbuh) more than that which muslims believe in, be it missionaries, critics, converts to Islam etc etc, nobody has ever understood the message of Islam concerning Jesus(pbuh) than that of completely denying his (1)Being GOD (2)Son of GOD (3)Trinity with GOD, you are the one who is speculating and saying that it only denies him being the son in the classical sense, but like I said the Quranic verses are pretty clear on the issue





Regards,
Grenville

Try and read the Qur'an yourself.

 

[Ramadhan]

Whenever you asked for evidence, I provided it, and then it was simply dismissed. You asked about evidence to back up the claim that the Qur’an does not support the Islamic religious tradition that the Bible was corrupted. How about the following.

No just estimate of God do they make when they say: "Nothing doth God send down to man" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?—a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much: therein were ye taught that which ye knew not—neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "God": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6:91)​

The Qur’an charges that religious leaders presented the scriptures for show, but concealed much of it. Islamic religious tradition has interpreted these types of verses to mean that the Bible itself has been corrupted. But that is not what the verse states. The Qur’an does not deny the availability or accuracy of the scriptures, but condemns the religious leaders’ corrupt practices.

[

This is the complete verse with several translation choices and a tafsir:

Muhsin Khan
: They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters, etc.) did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allah send down to any human being (by inspiration)." Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Who then sent down the Book which Musa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much). And you (believers in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad SAW), were taught (through the Quran) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allah (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, Vol.7, Page 37).

Sahih International
: And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.

Pickthall
: And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

Tafsir Jalalayn
: They, that is, the Jews, measured not God with His true measure, that is, they have not extended Him the grandeur that truly befits Him, or [it means] they have not attained the true knowledge of Him, when they said, to the Prophet (s), disputing with him about the Qur’ān: ‘God has not revealed anything to any mortal.’ Say, to them: ‘Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind? You put it (in all three instances [the verbs may be] read either in the third person plural [yaj‘alūnahu, ‘they put it’; yubdūnahā, ‘they reveal it’; wa-yukhfūna, ‘and they hide’] or in the second person plural [taj‘alūnahu, ‘you put it’; tubdūnahā, ‘you reveal it’; wa-tukhfūna, ‘and you hide’]) on parchments, that is, you write it down on fragments of notes, which you disclose, that is, what you choose to disclose thereof, but you hide much, of what is in them, as in [the case of] the descriptions of Muhammad (s); and you have been taught, O Jews, in the Qur’ān, what you did not know, neither you nor your fathers’, in the Torah, through the elucidation therein of what you were confused about and in disagreement over. Say: ‘God’, revealed it — and if they do not say it, there is no other response — then leave them to play in their discourse, their falsehood.