Bible authenticity and transmission,fully detailed argument.

[YusufNoor]

YusufNoor you asked a while back -"when did the Church decide that the "current list of canonical books" is the Bible"?

answer?

"and is that your Church?"

Please don't forget that the list of New Testament Books in the canon always included Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. If there is a difference of opinion as to which church and which books are included again Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are always included.

that is generally a true statement, however, there IS mention earlier that of Iranaeus [which i had hoped to source, but time runs short] that mentions, iirc, the biographies of the apostles and NOT the Gospels, per se.

My church- Lutheran.

is is believed by MOST [although not Gene's preferred] Scholars that the writings of Paul are the oldest NT writings. does he [Paul]mention any of the 4 gospels by name?

i will also concede that THOSE 4 gospels are believed to be the oldest accounts of Christian writings[re: myths mg:] about Jesus.

YusufNoor you asked a while back -"when did the Church decide that the "current list of canonical books" is the Bible"?

still unanswered

The Holy Bible is the most valuable book on creating a personnal relationship with GOD.

i disagree, there is only One True God, Who is discussed in the Qur'an. your book now [allegedly] discusses a trilogy of God, which is an idea of Plato.

You really need to find better scholarship. The only book that is of unknown authorship is the Letter to the Hebrews.

that's not a true statement, it should read "some Christians believe that The only book that is of unknown authorship is the Letter to the Hebrews. the 4 Gospels were written anonymously and the headings now used, "the Gospel according to" were added later. also, many scholars now dispute the majority of the authorship of the books of the NT

To state that the earliest books of the NT was written some 50 years after Jesus, would mean that it was 80AD or later. Most Biblical scholarship will give dates for much earlier dates for all but a few books of the NT.

Even though there is not universal agreement, if you check out just a few of these timelines, Chronology of the New Testament

that timeline is simply not agreed to by the majority of scholars, so not only is it not in "universal agreement, it is NOT even in "majority agreement!"

i'll quote Bart D Ehrman here:

No one knows for certain when Jesus died, but most scholars agree that it was sometime around 30 C.E. Most historians think that Mark was the first of our Gospels to be written, sometime between the mid 60s to early 70s. Matthew and Luke were probably produced some ten to fifteen years later, perhaps around 80 or 85. John was written perhaps ten years after that, in 90 or 95. These are necessarily rough estimates, but almost all scholars agree within a few years.


:wa:

 

[YusufNoor]

IS that be an accurate quote from the Qur'an? For the facts as I klnow them is that regardless of what Jews might say about Christians, and though we Christians hold that the Jews have missed properly identify the Messiah when he was among them (and continue to ignore his coming to this day), that Christians do NOT says that the Jews have no valid grounds for their beliefs. In fact, we think that they do indeed have very valid grounds for their beliefs. And we pray they would follow all of the grounds that they have available to them.

see below!

Given what the facts really are with respect to the Christian view of Jewish beliefs, surely this cannot be an accurate quote from the Qur'an for it would be an example of an inaccuracy within the Qur'an. On the eve of Ramadan I will not accuse the Qur'an of this, and trust that it was merely the interpretation rendered which was in error.

as i appended the thought, antisemitism is a result of Paul. as Paul struggle to deal with the "vision" he had when he fell of his horse and tried to make sense of the [apparent] crucifixion in his writings. the next group has to deal with his letters! i see no other destination once he pens[in Galations 5]:

2 Behold I, (D)Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to (H)keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


while this is directed at the Gauls, consider it's impact on the NEXT generation of of Jews, do you circumcise them? if you do, they are now, "severed from Christ!?" and if ANY observance of the Law "severs you from Christ" this pretty much mandates a separation of the Jews and the Christians. [despite the fact the other NT writers hint at keeping the law, especially Peter in Acts 10.] thus, let's call it the mustard seed, eventually leads to, Barnabas 4:6-8

6 ...And yet again, I am asking you this as one who is from among you and who loves each and every one of you more than my own soul: watch yourselves now and do not become like some people by piling up your sins, saying that they covenant is both theirs and ours.
7 For it is ours. but they permanently post it, in this way, when Moses had just received it[!] For the Scripture says, "Moses was on the mountain fasting for forty days and forty nights, and he received the covenant from the Lord, stone tablets written with the finger of the Lord's own hand."
But when they turned back to idols they lost it. For the Lord says this: Moses, Moses, go down quickly, because your people. whom you lead from the land of Egypt, has broken the law . Moses understood this and cast the two tablets from his hands. And their covenant was smashed - [that the covenant of his beloved, Jesus, might be sealed in our hearts, in the hope brought by faith in him.]

which seem a blatant lie that casts dispersions of the Jewish faith of the last millennium. [not that the Jews/Hebrew/Israelites didn't do enough of that themselves] but if there were no longer any Covenant with the Hebrews/Jews, then there is no expectation of the Messiah either!

to show Barnabas' error:

The Covenant Renewed Exodus 34

10Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all the earth nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you.

11"Be sure to observe what I am commanding you this day: behold, I am going to drive out the Amorite before you, and the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite.
12"Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst.
13"But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim
14--for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--
15otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice,
16and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.
17"You shall make for yourself no molten gods.
18"You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread For seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the )month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt.
19")The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep.
20"You shall redeem with a lamb the first offspring from a donkey; and if you do not redeem it, then you shall break its neck You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons None shall appear before Me empty-handed.
21"You shall work six days, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during plowing time and harvest you shall rest.
22"You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
23"Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
24"For I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no man shall covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God.
25"You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread, nor is the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover to be left over until morning.
26"You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk."
27Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

28So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

so Barnabas loves the them so much that he distorts the truth, not only about the Hebrews/Jews, BUT about GOD as well!

this plays a part in History as the Christians try to convince the Pagans that the Old Testament belongs to them and NOT the Jews and that is THEM who should be granted excuse from sacrificing to the Emperor. and further more, according to Barnabas, the Jews are some kind of "friggin" morons and degenerates for not realizing that they have been so clueless for the last 1300 years! [that's rather simplified, but as i've been typing for over an hour, i'll just end...]

i think that even Bugs Bunny treated Elmer Fudd better than that.

i'm just saying...

i missed this one! is the Epistle of Barnabas still considered part of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers?

one of the OLDEST Greek Manuscripts available, the Codex Sinaiticus DOES contain Barnabas!

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=60

glad to have helped clear this up!

:wa:

 

[Azy]

I'm interested to know why the Quran refers to the books of the Jews and Christians as 'divine writ'.

 

[YusufNoor]

IS that be an accurate quote from the Qur'an? For the facts as I klnow them is that regardless of what Jews might say about Christians, and though we Christians hold that the Jews have missed properly identify the Messiah when he was among them (and continue to ignore his coming to this day), that Christians do NOT says that the Jews have no valid grounds for their beliefs. In fact, we think that they do indeed have very valid grounds for their beliefs. And we pray they would follow all of the grounds that they have available to them.

Given what the facts really are with respect to the Christian view of Jewish beliefs, surely this cannot be an accurate quote from the Qur'an for it would be an example of an inaccuracy within the Qur'an. On the eve of Ramadan I will not accuse the Qur'an of this, and trust that it was merely the interpretation rendered which was in error.

having found a few online documents from Early Christianity, let's review the statement made above in lieu of what is found in "the Epistle of Barnanbas" and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, shall we?

let's take another look at Barnabas, beginning in Chapter 9:

9:1 Furthermore He saith concerning the ears, how that it is our heart which He circumcised.
9:2 The Lord saith in the prophet;
9:3 With the hearings of the ears they listened unto Me.
9:4 And again He saith;
9:5 They that are afar off shall hear with their ears, and shall perceive what I have done.
9:6 And;
9:7 Be ye circumcised in your hearts, saith the Lord.
9:8 And again He saith;
9:9 Hear, O Israel, for thus saith the Lord thy God.
9:10 Who is he that desireth to live for ever, let him hear with his ears the voice of My servant.
9:11 And again He saith;
9:12 Hear, O heaven, and give ear, O earth, for the Lord hath spoken these things for a testimony.
9:13 And again He saith;
9:14 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of this people.
9:15 And again He saith;
9:16 Hear, O my children, the voice of one crying in the wilderness.
9:17 Therefore He circumcised our ears, that bearing the word we might believe.
9:18 But moreover the circumcision, in which they have confidence, is abolished;
9:19 for He hath said that a circumcision not of the flesh should be practised.
9:20 But they transgressed, for an evil angel taught them cleverness.
9:21 He saith unto them;
9:22 Thus saith the Lord your God (so I find the commandment);
9:23 sow not upon thorns, be ye circumcised to your Lord.
9:24 And what saith He?
9:25 Be ye circumcised in the hardness of your heart, and then ye will not harden your neck.
9:26 Take this again;
9:27 Behold, saith the Lord, all the Gentiles are uncircumcised in their foreskin, but this people is uncircumcised in their hearts.
9:28 But thou wilt say;
9:29 In truth the people hath been circumcised for a seal.
9:30 Nay, but so likewise is every Syrian and Arabian and all the priests of the idols.
9:31 Do all those then too belong to their covenant?
9:32 Moreover the Egyptians also are included among the circumcised.
9:33 Learn therefore, children of love, concerning all things abundantly, that Abraham, who first appointed circumcision, looked forward in the spirit unto Jesus,
9:34 when he circumcised having received the ordinances of three letters.
9:35 For the scripture saith;
9:36 And Abraham circumcised of his household eighteen males and three hundred What then was the knowledge given unto him?
9:37 Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred in the eighteen I stands for ten, H for eight.
9:38 Here thou hast Jesus (------).
9:39 And because the cross in the T was to have grace, He saith also three hundred.
9:40 So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross.
9:41 He who placed within us the innate gift of His covenant knoweth ;
9:42 no man hath ever learnt from me a more genuine word ;
9:43 but I know that ye are worthy.

so they weren't literally supposed to circumcise themselves!? :hmm:

and as far as the kosher food laws go:

10:1 But forasmuch as Moses said ;
10:2 Ye shall not eat swine nor eagle nor falcon nor crow nor any fish which hath no scale upon it, he received in his understanding three ordinances.
10:3 Yea and further He saith unto them in Deuteronomy ;
10:4 And I will lay as a covenant upon this people My ordinances.
10:5 So then it is not a commandment of God that they should not bite with their teeth, but Moses spake it in spirit.
10:6 Accordingly he mentioned the swine with this intent.
10:7 Thou shalt not cleave, saith he, to such men who are like unto swine;
10:8 that is, when they are in luxury they forget the Lord, but when they are in want they recognize the Lord, just as the swine when it eateth knoweth not his lord, but when it is hungry it crieth out,
10:9 and when it has received food again it is silent.
10:10 Neither shalt thou eat eagle nor falcon nor kite nor crow.
10:11 Thou shalt not, He saith, cleave unto, or be likened to such men who know not how to provide food for themselves by toil and sweat, but in their lawlessness seize what belongeth to others,
10:12 and as if they were walking in guilelessness watch and search about for some one to rob in their rapacity,
10:13 just as these birds alone do not provide food for themselves, but sit idle and seek how they may eat the meat that belongeth to others, being pestilent in their evil-doings.
10:14 And thou shalt not eat, saith He, lamprey nor polypus nor cuttle fish.
10:15 Thou shalt not, He meaneth, become like unto such men, who are desperately wicked, and are already condemned to death, just as these fishes alone are accursed and swim in the depths,
10:16 not swimming on the surface like the rest, but dwell on the ground beneath the deep sea.
10:17 Moreover thou shalt not eat the hare.
10:18 Why so?
10:19 Thou shalt not be found a corrupter of boys, nor shalt thou become like such persons;
10:20 for the hare gaineth one passage in the body every year;
10:21 for according to the number of years it lives it has just so many orifices.
10:22 Again, neither shalt thou eat the hyena ;
10:23 thou shalt not, saith He, become an adulterer or a fornicator, neither shalt thou resemble such persons.
10:24 Why so?
10:25 Because this animal changeth its nature year by year, and becometh at one time male and at another female.
10:26 Moreover He hath hated the weasel also and with good reason.
10:27 Thou shalt not, saith He, become such as those men of whom we hear as working iniquity with their mouth for uncleanness, neither shalt thou cleave unto impure women who work iniquity with their mouth.
10:28 For this animal conceiveth with its mouth.
10:29 Concerning meats then Moses received three decrees to this effect and uttered them in a spiritual sense;
10:30 but they accepted them according to the lust of the flesh, as though they referred to eating.
10:31 And David also receiveth knowledge of the same three decrees, and saith Blessed is the man who hath not gone in the counsel of the ungodly-even as the fishes go in darkness into the depths;
10:32 and hath not stood in the path of sinners-just as they who pretend to fear the Lord sin like swine;
10:33 and hath not sat on the seat of the destroyersas the birds that are seated for prey.
10:34 Ye have now the complete lesson concerning eating.
10:35 Again Moses saith;
10:36 Ye shall eat everything that divideth the hoof and cheweth the cud.
10:37 What meaneth he?
10:38 He that receiveth the food knoweth Him that giveth him the food, and being refreshed appeareth to rejoice in him.
10:39 Well said he, having regard to the commandment.
10:40 What then meaneth he?
10:41 Cleave unto those that fear the Lord, with those who meditate in their heart on the distinction of the word which they have received, with those who tell of the ordinances of the Lord and keep them,
10:42 with those who know that meditation is a work of gladness and who chew the cud of the word of the Lord.
10:43 But why that which divided the hoof?
10:44 Because the righteous man both walketh in this world, and at the same time looketh for the holy world to come.
10:45 Ye see how wise a lawgiver Moses was.
10:46 But whence should they perceive or understand these things?
10:47 Howbeit we having justly perceived the commandments tell them as the Lord willed.
10:48 `To this end He circumcised our ears and hearts, that we might understand these things.

so THOSE weren't meant to be taken literally either??

and going back to the 4th Chapter:

4:1 It behoves us therefore to investigate deeply concerning the present, and to search out the things which have power to save us.
4:2 Let us therefore flee altogether from all the works of lawlessness, lest the works of lawlessness overpower us;
4:3 and let us loathe the error of the present time, that we may be loved for that which is to come.
4:4 Let us give no relaxation to our soul that it should have liberty to consort with sinners and wicked men, lest haply we be made like unto them.
4:5 The last offence is at hand, concerning which the scripture speaketh, as Enoch saith.
4:6 For to this end the Master hath cut the seasons and the days short, that His beloved might hasten and come to His inheritance.
4:7 And the prophet also speaketh on this wise;
4:8 Ten reigns shall reign upon the earth, and after them shall arise a little king, who shall bring low three of the kings under one.
4:9 In like manner Daniel speaketh concerning the same;
4:10 And I saw the fourth beast to be wicked and strong and more intractable than all the beasts of the earth,
4:11 and how there arose from him ten horns, and from these a little horn an excrescence, and how that it abased under one three of the great horns.
4:12 Ye ought therefore to understand.
4:13 Moreover I ask you this one thing besides, as being one of yourselves and loving you all in particular more than my own soul, to give heed to yourselves now,
4:14 and not to liken yourselves to certain persons who pile up sin upon sin, saying that our covenant remains to them also.
4:15 Ours it is;
4:16 but they lost it in this way for ever, when Moses had just received it.
4:17 For the scripture saith;
4:18 And Moses was in the mountain fasting forty days and forty nights, and he received the covenant from the Lord, even tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord.
4:19 But they lost it by turning unto idols.
4:20 For thus saith the Lord;
4:21 Moses, Moses, come down quickly ;
4:22 for thy people whom thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt hath done unlawfully.
4:23 And Moses understood, and threw the two tables from his hands;
4:24 and their covenant was broken in pieces, that the covenant of the beloved Jesus might be sealed unto our hearts in the hope which springeth from faith in Him.
4:25 But though I would fain write many things, not as a teacher, but as becometh one who loveth you not to fall short of that which we possess, I was anxious to write to you, being your devoted slave.
4:26 Wherefore let us take heed in these last days.
4:27 For the whole time of our faith shall profit us nothing, unless we now, in the season of lawlessness and in the offences that shall be, as becometh sons of God, offer resistance, that the Black One may not effect an entrance.
4:28 Let us flee from all vanity, let us entirely hate the works of the evil way.
4:29 Do not entering in privily stand apart by yourselves, as if ye were already justified, but assemble yourselves together and consult concerning the common welfare.
4:30 For the scripture saith;
4:31 Woe unto them that are wise for themselves, and understanding in their own sight.
4:32 Let us become spiritual, let us become a temple perfect unto God.
4:33 As far as in us lies, let us exercise ourselves in the fear of God, [and] let us strive to keep His commandments, that we may rejoice in His ordinances.
4:34 The Lord judgeth the world without respect of persons;
4:35 each man shall receive according to his deeds.
4:36 If he be good, his righteousness shall go before him in the way;
4:37 if he be evil, the recompense of his evil-doing is before him;
4:38 lest perchance, if we relax as men that are called, we should slumber over our sins, and the prince of evil receive power against us and thrust us out from the kingdom of the Lord.
4:39 Moreover understand this also, my brothers.
4:40 When ye see that after so many signs and wonders wrought in Israel, even then they were abandoned, let us give heed, lest haply we be found, as the scripture saith, many called but few chosen.


the OT Covenant is NOT with the Jews, it is with the Christians! :heated:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/fathers/ante-nic/barnabus.htm

and turning to Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 16 & 18:

CHAPTER XVI -- CIRCUMCISION GIVEN AS A SIGN, THAT THE JEWS MIGHT BE DRIVEN AWAY FOR THEIR EVIL DEEDS DONE TO CHRIST AND THE CHRISTIANS.

"And God himself proclaimed by Moses, speaking thus: 'And circumcise the hardness of your hearts, and no longer stiffen the neck. For the Lord your God is both Lord of lords, and a great, mighty, and terrible God, who regardeth not persons, and taketh not rewards.' And in Leviticus: 'Because they have transgressed against Me, and despised Me, and because they have walked contrary to Me, I also walked contrary to them, and I shall cut them off in the land of their enemies. Then shall their uncircumcised heart be turned.' For the circumcision according to the flesh, which is from Abraham, was given for a sign; that you may be separated from other nations, and from us; and that you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire; and that strangers may eat your fruit in your presence, and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem.' For you are not recognised among the rest of men by any other mark than your fleshly circumcision. For none of you, I suppose, will venture to say that God neither did nor does foresee the events, which are future, nor fore-ordained his deserts for each one. Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things--cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ. For you have not the power to lay hands upon us, on account of those who now have the mastery. But as often as you could, you did so. Wherefore God, by Isaiah, calls to you, saying, 'Behold how the righteous man perished, and no one regards it. For the righteous man is taken away from before iniquity. His grave shall be in peace, he is taken away from the midst. Draw near hither, ye lawless children, seed of the adulterers, and children of the *****. Against whom have you sported yourselves, and against whom have you opened the mouth, and against whom have you loosened the tongue?'

and so there was no covenant involved with Circumcision, but a sign of punishment!? :exhausted

CHAPTER XVII -- THE JEWS SENT PERSONS THROUGH THE WHOLE EARTH TO SPREAD CALUMNIES ON CHRISTIANS.

"For other nations have not inflicted on us and on Christ this wrong to such an extent as you have, who in very deed are the authors of the wicked prejudice against the Just One, and us who hold by Him. For after that you had crucified Him, the only blameless and righteous Man,-- through whose swipes those who approach the Father by Him are healed,--when you knew that He had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven, as the prophets foretold He would, you not only did not repent of the wickedness which you had committed, but at that time you selected and sent out from Jerusalem chosen men through all the land to tell that the godless heresy of the Christians had sprung up, and to publish those things which all they who knew us not speak against us. So that you are the cause not only of your own unrighteousness, but in fact of that of all other men. And Isaiah cries justly: 'By reason of you, My name is blasphemed among the Gentiles.' And: 'Woe unto their soul! because they have devised an evil device against themselves, saying, Let us bind the righteous, for he is distasteful to us. Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked evil shall be rendered to him according to the works of his hands.' And again, in other words: 'Woe unto them that draw their iniquity as with a long cord, and their transgressions as with the harness of a heifer's yoke: who say, Let his speed come near; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel come, that we may know it. Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put light for darkness, and darkness for light; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!' Accordingly, you displayed great zeal in publishing throughout all the land bitter and dark and unjust things against the only blameless and righteous Light sent by God.

For He appeared distasteful to you when He cried among you, 'It is written, My house is the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves!' He overthrew also the tables of the money-changers in the temple, and exclaimed, 'Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye pay tithe of mint and rue, but do not observe the love of God and justice. Ye whited sepulchres! appearing beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones.' And to the Scribes, 'Woe unto you, Scribes! for ye have the keys, and ye do not enter in yourselves, and them that are entering in ye hinder; ye blind guides!'

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

and i'll just leave that for folks to read....

:wa:

 

[Ramisa]

I'm interested to know why the Quran refers to the books of the Jews and Christians as 'divine writ'.

Write:? Please elaborate.

 

[Sojourn]

In this article I will be going through reasons why I feel the bible is not reliable. I encourage Christians to read through and respond to my post with why they feel the evidence is in their favor.

Ultimately arguments against the Bible's integrity are moot because the Quran contradicts even that which is certain, such as the fact that Jesus was crucified.

 

[جوري]

Ultimately arguments against the Bible's integrity are moot because the Quran contradicts even that which is certain, such as the fact that Jesus was crucified.

It is moot because the bible has no integrity even against its own self..

Mark 15:21, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26 - Jesus gets help from Simon of Cyrene
John 19:17 - Jesus carries his own cross the whole way Inscription on Jesus’ Cross:


When crucified, Jesus’ cross had an inscription — but what did it say?

Mark 15:26 - The inscription: “The King of the Jews.”
Matthew 27:37 - The inscription: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
Luke 23:38 - The inscription: “This is the King of the Jews.”
John 19:19 - The inscription: “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” Jesus and the Thieves:


Some gospels say Jesus was crucified with two thieves, though the Romans never crucified thieves.

Mark - The two thieves are mentioned, but there is no conversation
Matthew 27:44 - The two thieves taunt Jesus
Luke 23:39-42 - One thief taunts Jesus and is criticized by the other. Jesus promises the 2nd thief that they would be in Paradise that day, though John and Acts say he did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection
John - The two men aren’t described as thieves Does Jesus Drink Wine or Vinegar?:


Jesus is given something to drink while he is on the cross, but what?

Mark 15:23 - Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh, but he doesn’t drink
Matthew 27:48, Luke 23:36 - Jesus is given vinegar, but he doesn’t drink
John 19:29-30 - Jesus is given vinegar and he drinks Jesus and the Centurion:


Romans supposedly witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion, but what did they think?

Mark 15:39 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was the son of God!”
Matthew 27:54 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this was the son of God.”
Luke 23:47 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was innocent.”
John - No centurions say anything Women Watch the Curcifixion:


The gospels describe several woman as having followed Jesus around, but what did they do when Jesus was crucified?

Mark 15:40, Matthew 27:55, Luke 23:49 - Several women watch Jesus from afar
John 19:25-26 - Several woman are close enough that Jesus could talk to his mother, contrary to Roman practices When Was Jesus Crucified?:


The crucifixion of Jesus is the central event of the Passion narrative, but the narratives don’t agree on when the crucifixion occurred.

Mark 15:25 - Jesus was crucified on the “third hour.”
John 19:14-15 - Jesus was crucified on the “sixth hour.”
Matthew, Luke - It’s not stated when the crucifixion starts, but the “sixth hour” occurs during the curcifixion Jesus’ Last Words:


Jesus’ last words before dying are important, but no one seems to have written then down.

Mark 15:34-37, Matthew 27:46-50 - Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (but they use different Greek words for “God” — Matthew uses “Eli” and Mark uses “Eloi”)
Luke 23:46 - Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
John 19:30 - Jesus says: “It is finished.” Earthquake After the Resurrection:


Was there an earthquake when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:51-53 - At the moment Jesus dies, a massive earth quake strikes and opens tombs where dead people rise again
Mark, Luke, John - No earthquake is mentioned. No earthquake and no massive influx of formerly dead people is mentioned in any historical records, which is strange given how monumental such an event would be.

_________________________

There is no object of comparison between the Quran and the bible.. one is the ramblings of confused men whose identity is lost to us, and is historically inaccurate and nonsensical in content. While the Quran is the unerring divine word of God!

all the best

 

[YusufNoor]

Ultimately arguments against the Bible's integrity are moot because the Quran contradicts even that which is certain, such as the fact that Jesus was crucified.

what is your evidence for this "fact?"

name 1 single contemporaneous witness to this "fact."

please produce 1 source outside of Christianity OR Josephus from the 1st Century that confirms this so called fact.

please describe in detail the Roman method of crucifixion. THEN tell us if this fits the Gospel stories about Jesus' alleged crucifixion. then name 1 other person who the Romans only "half-crucified."

 

[Sojourn]

what is your evidence for this "fact?"

Something tells me no amount of evidence would convince you. Perhaps a more pertinent question would be, if you had not been Muslim would you still believe Jesus wasn't crucified?

And just as an aside, the opinion some Muslims hold that Judas took the place of Christ on the cross, where does that come from? Hadith?

 

[Ramadhan]

Sojourn, in the other thread you spew many lies and "facts" and when I asked for evidence, you kept quiet.
Turn out that is your m.o.

 

[Grace Seeker]

having found a few online documents from Early Christianity, let's review the statement made above in lieu of what is found in "the Epistle of Barnanbas" and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, shall we?

The Epistle of Barnabas from which you quote is a second century document, and highly unlikely to have been penned by the Barnabas who accompanied Paul in his travels. However, I will grant that for a time this letter was considered on par by some (not all) with those writings that make up the canon of the NT today. As to its or Justin Martyr's comments or many other Christians that have spoken against the Jews, such is evidence that at least some (perhaps even a majority of) Christians deem that apart from Christ the Jew cannot be saved. This does not mean that we think their scripture not valid. And the Hebrew Bible (which we Christians call the OT) is the grounds for their belief. It is valid. It continues to be used and accepted by Christians as a part of our own canon and as such is most definitely understood by Christians (even those you named) as valid grounds for belief. The problem is not with the ground of Jewish belief (my goodness, the foundation for much of the teaching of the NT is found in the OT, you cannot fully understand the second apart from the first), but rather the problem is with the actual conclusions that the Jews draw with regard to their beliefs.

 

[Sojourn]

i'll quote Bart D Ehrman here:

What does the good doctor say about Jesus' crucifixion?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you naidamar;

and when I asked for evidence, you kept quiet.

Any evidence that is two thousand years old, is open to questions and interpretation. Proof of God rests on Holy scriptures, which people claim is written by man.

Sadly there is not total proof for the existence of God, if there were then the chances are we would all see this proof in the same way, and follow one religion.

We believe, and we have faith, we trust and thank God for all that he does for us, without total proof.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric












1226048]Sojourn, in the other thread you spew many lies and "facts" Turn out that is your m.o.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ramadhan]

I did not ask for proof of existence of god from sojourn.

In different posts and threads, sojourn would make strong claims but when discussions went deeper and asked for evidence, he evaded and then started to make similar ones in other threads.

Any evidence that is two thousand years old, is open to questions and interpretation. Proof of God rests on Holy scriptures, which people claim is written by man.

Sadly there is not total proof for the existence of God, if there were then the chances are we would all see this proof in the same way, and follow one religion.

We believe, and we have faith, we trust and thank God for all that he does for us, without total proof.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric

 

[YusufNoor]

The Epistle of Barnabas from which you quote is a second century document, and highly unlikely to have been penned by the Barnabas who accompanied Paul in his travels. However, I will grant that for a time this letter was considered on par by some (not all) with those writings that make up the canon of the NT today. As to its or Justin Martyr's comments or many other Christians that have spoken against the Jews, such is evidence that at least some (perhaps even a majority of) Christians deem that apart from Christ the Jew cannot be saved. This does not mean that we think their scripture not valid. And the Hebrew Bible (which we Christians call the OT) is the grounds for their belief. It is valid. It continues to be used and accepted by Christians as a part of our own canon and as such is most definitely understood by Christians (even those you named) as valid grounds for belief. The problem is not with the ground of Jewish belief (my goodness, the foundation for much of the teaching of the NT is found in the OT, you cannot fully understand the second apart from the first), but rather the problem is with the actual conclusions that the Jews draw with regard to their beliefs.

yes, but if you look at what was "accepted" as inspired by "Barnabas" it begs the conclusion that then there no "valid" covenant with Joshua, David, Solomon, Samuel [Saul for that matter], Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Ezra, et al. seems rather infantile, and really leaves with VERY little OT for you to understand ANYTHING in the NT. for if there was no covenant, there was no communion with God and all those books are derived from someones imagination. and if all those books spurious, then no valid "prophecies" exists for which you draw your connections with Jesus to. pretty self defeating, don't you think? [and of course this DOES invalidate the Tanakh, does it not?]

as for Justin, his comments make a mockery out of Peter's dream, do they not?

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

is Justin not then claiming that Jesus gave the "keys to the kingdom of Heaven to some kind of idiot?" or was the man you claim was God unable to point Peter in the proper direction? did Justin have more knowledge than Jesus? is he wiser than God?

my conclusion is that neither of these men were in contact with anyone from the original Jerusalem Church. and if we can dismiss Justin, we can dismiss everyone that follows him.

 

[Grace Seeker]

yes, but if you look at what was "accepted" as inspired by "Barnabas" it begs the conclusion that then there no "valid" covenant with Joshua, David, Solomon, Samuel [Saul for that matter], Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Ezra, et al. seems rather infantile, and really leaves with VERY little OT for you to understand ANYTHING in the NT. for if there was no covenant, there was no communion with God and all those books are derived from someones imagination. and if all those books spurious, then no valid "prophecies" exists for which you draw your connections with Jesus to. pretty self defeating, don't you think? [and of course this DOES invalidate the Tanakh, does it not?]

I don't really follow the sense of your argument. I understand it; I just don't end up with the same conclusions you do.



Regarding Justin Martyr, he is a conundrum. I don't know as much about him as I wish I did. I know that some of his ideas are indeed germane in the development of the Church's christology -- a christology that continues to develop even after the last of the biblical texts are written. So, as with his Christology, his other views are neither scripture nor fully reflective of the church's views today. They are a part of the story, but not the whole of it. Influential, YES. But not declaratory, for the Church does not follow Justin it follows Christ as revealed in scripture.

 

[YusufNoor]

Something tells me no amount of evidence would convince you.

we CAN be sure that NO EVIDENCE won't convince me!

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be, if you had not been Muslim would you still believe Jesus wasn't crucified?

why? you don't want to provide your "evidence" to Muslims? that doesn't make any sense.

And just as an aside, the opinion some Muslims hold that Judas took the place of Christ on the cross, where does that come from? Hadith?

there are no authentic Hadeeth as to exactly what happened, but some strange comments in the "Gospels" appear to support an "image swap." is that what happened, Allahu Alum.

IF you take a little time to research how Rome crucified rebels, the Gospel writings seem like something make believe.

What does the good doctor say about Jesus' crucifixion?

it is his opinion that Christ was killed. that doesn't mean it is MY opinion. there is MUCH that i disagree with him about, but there's no need for me to post that stuff here. i''d rather take it up with him.

I don't really follow the sense of your argument. I understand it; I just don't end up with the same conclusions you do.

how do you "not follow it" and understand it at the same time?

Regarding Justin Martyr, he is a conundrum

so he's "out" or "in"? picking and choosing or just cherry picking?

 

[Grace Seeker]

so he's "out" or "in"? picking and choosing or just cherry picking?

When it comes to Justin Martyr I'm definitely a cherry picker.

 

[Sojourn]

there are no authentic Hadeeth as to exactly what happened, but some strange comments in the "Gospels" appear to support an "image swap." is that what happened, Allahu Alum.

A man being crucified is not strange, an "image swap" is strange however. The Gospels I know of record Jesus propheseying His own death, being Crucified, and then three days later resurrecting. Perhaps you have the Gnostic "gospels" in mind?

IF you take a little time to research how Rome crucified rebels, the Gospel writings seem like something make believe.

And we would what? Come to a conclusion that Jesus was not crucified? That the Romans put up Judas instead? An "image swap"? Sorry akhi, but the story you're pushing sounds more like make believe.

it is his opinion that Christ was killed. that doesn't mean it is MY opinion. there is MUCH that i disagree with him about, but there's no need for me to post that stuff here. i''d rather take it up with him.

Isn't it interesting that a man who doesn't believe the Bible is inspired, and that even portions are altered, still recognizes the historicity of Jesus' Crucifixion? You love to quote him against the the Bible, but in the end he's against the Qur'an.

 

[YusufNoor]

A man being crucified is not strange, an "image swap" is strange however. The Gospels I know of record Jesus propheseying His own death, being Crucified, and then three days later resurrecting. Perhaps you have the Gnostic "gospels" in mind?

actually, you believe that Jesus "rose" after 2 days, thus nullifying his own "3 days and 3 nights prophecy!"

And we would what? Come to a conclusion that Jesus was not crucified? That the Romans put up Judas instead? An "image swap"? Sorry akhi, but the story you're pushing sounds more like make believe.

i NEVER said Jesus was swapped with Judah. THAT is what you say. you seem to be having your own dialogue! [but see below]

Isn't it interesting that a man who doesn't believe the Bible is inspired, and that even portions are altered, still recognizes the historicity of Jesus' Crucifixion? You love to quote him against the the Bible, but in the end he's against the Qur'an.

Ehrman started a Christian, so i understand his faulty reasoning in that respect. but seeing as i an NOT an agnostic, i couldn't agree with him 100% now, could i?

here's our position on the death of Isa;

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

that's it, that's ALL of it. we TRUST in Allah. rather than have our own conjecture, we leave it at that unless Allah and His Messenger said otherwise.

the interesting thing about the "face swap" that you keep bringing up, THAT ideas found in your Gospel of John! let's have a looksy, eh:

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.


so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?

:wa: