Ramadhan
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No, there is none written exactly as you have written.
I rest my case.
No, there is none written exactly as you have written.
I rest my case.
he presented himself as God incarnate
please investigate it if it is trying to provoke, distract and deceive us. It is up to you.
So if we only bothered to look and think we'd all believe as you do, eh? I guess that doesn't say much for us Christians, does it? But I think you're wrong. Many a brilliant mind has supported this Divine Doctrine, and had it not been True it would have dissapeared into the annals of history. The fact is my mind can more easily grasp an Arian concept of Christ as some sort of lesser diety, than the Three Persons being one in Being. But this is a case where what is easier to understand is wrong because it leads to what we know to be false, polytheism. The Trinity is true despite its mysterious character, and God has willed it to be held by the majority because He defends the Truth.
So, then Jesus never unequivocally says loud and clear either one thing or the other. Therefore we must interpret what he meant by the things he said and did. In my opinion it is clear that he presented himself as God incarnate among us. But I recognize that others disagree and think it just as clear that he never did and intended just the opposite. Given that we have this disagreement, the only thing that then is really clear is that it not as uniquivocally loud and clear as we each tend to think it is.
Though I am sure the moderators are already aware of it, I'll save you the frustration of not knowing and answer you directly.
This particular thread is not meant to provoke, distract or deceive Muslims nor anyone else for that matter. It arose out of the reality that two strong-willed persons here, myself and Grenville, were participating in a thread in which he made some comments about Jesus that I could not support as being true. We both identify ourselves as Christians, but we discovered that we have diametrically different views with regard to the nature of who the Jesus of the Gospels is. Rather than despoil the other thread, Grenville posted a new thread in which we could debate our respective points of view. Now Grenville's position regarding the diety of Jesus is very similar to that of most Muslims on this board, so of course there has been a lot of interaction of that kind as well. But the question was posed asking for evidence from the Bible, because this was actually a thread in which the differences were not between Muslim and Christian, but between the points of view held by people identifying themselves as belonging to the Christian community.
Here are a couple of verses to consider:
Colossians 1:19 "For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell."
Colossians 2:9 "For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily."
I think it is fine to continue the dialogue. I would be interested in your thoughts about the above two verses. I'm here to learn, not to convince anyone that either Islam or Christianity may be mistaken, I'm interested in the evidence.
Hi Sojourn:
I cannot understand how you can make such statements if you are also aware of Church history.
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit"
Letter to the Ephesians 18:2
From a man who lived before Justin Martyr and written shortly before his Martyrdom, St Ignatius of Antioch.
So what do you believe about Jesus?
Ignatius generally identified Jesus and God as two separate persons. An example follows.
However, in Ignatius’ letter to the Ephesians, to which you have referenced, there were a few instances where some versions of this letter appeared to have been tampered with. In one version of Ignatius’ letter to the Ephesians, the following new verse was inserted in Chapter 15:
There appears to have been an attempt to show that the early church taught that Jesus is God by tampering with Ignatius’ letters.
It is useful to note that several letters with the name “Ignatius” written as the author, have been universally acknowledged as obvious forgeries.
Therefore, it appears that Justin Martyr was the first person to explicitly state that Jesus is God, around 150 AD.
I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, sent to reconcile all people to God, the Heavenly Father, through His atoning sacrifice on the cross.
Uthmān;1229961 said:Brother Mustafa's account has been disabled on his request, so unfortunately he will not be able to reply.
Who is "the Lord"?
What was the rationale for stoning Stephen or for Saul to seek letters against the followers of the Way from the Jewish high court?
Does God live in human beings? If so, is it God the Father or God the Spirit or God's spirit that lives in us? Or how would you term it? Or do you say that it is not God but something else from God/sent by God that lives in us? Or perhaps nothing lives in us at all?
Is the Gospel the gospel of Jesus Christ or the gospel of God? Or are they one and the same so that it doesn't matter whether you refer to it as the gospel of one or the other?
Are the grace of God and the grace of Jesus Christ the same or different?
Would the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ" be one and the same Spirit or two different spirits?
When a person is sanctified, who is it that sanctifies him/here?
Is it proper to also refer to God as our Savior or is that only to be understood as the work of Jesus Christ?
Is it proper to refer to Jesus Christ as our Sovereign or is that only to be understood as God?
Is it proper to refer to God as the Lord?
We all agree there is one and only one God; but how many Lord's are there?
Who is "the One and Only" (John 1:14)?
Who is it that is at the Father's side and has made him known?
Would it be more correct to say that God is eternal life or that Jesus is eternal life?
Is it proper for priests to be priests of Jesus Christ, or must they only be priests of God?
Who would be king in the kingdom of Christ?
In whom do we have redemption in his blood?
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