Last Supper?

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holding a particular day solemn is to emphasize it's importance

I agree with you in that point.


it appears the Quran is explaining in its own way why Christians hold Sunday to be a "day of prayer."

Pax,
Sojourn



I disagree with that ........

What you read in Ibn Kathir that the solemn festival is an establishment of a day (sunday),is mere an opinion ...... after reflecting well the verse,I think this opinion is invalid

The word (EEdan) which been translated a solemn feast

could mean
the happiness which to be repeated ,eg a feast comes repeatedly ..

a gathering of people in a happy situation ...


the second meaning makes much sense to the verse....

simply Jesus prayed for Allah to send this table and all of them gather around it in happiness as the same feeling and experience of a feast...


It is a common expression in the Arab world...

some person would say in a normal day (today we had a feast)

If refering to a happy gathering of people having food and fun together even if the day wasn't a formal feast...


and that meaning mentioned (beside the other meaning) in Tafsir Al Kashaf
he wrote:

it is said also that it could mean the table to be a happiness and joy for us..(Tafsir Al Kashaf)


and that makes much sense...


Regards
 
Peace Al-Manar

The word (EEdan) which been translated a solemn feast

could mean
the happiness which to be repeated ,eg a feast comes repeatedly ..

It was actually Ibn Kathir who said the "solemn festival" was the establishment of a day of prayer, and this was based off a narration from one of the companions or salaf. You yourself indicate that the word "eedan" can mean "the happiness that is to be **repeated**" Now here is the point, there is a Day of Prayer in Christianity that is a repitition of a Sacred Meal, and it has been celebrated since the time of the Apostles, the only difference is it had to do with Jesus' Last Supper and not a table descending from heaven.


Pax,
Sojourn
 
Peace ,Sojourn


Peace Al-Manar

It was actually Ibn Kathir who said the "solemn festival" was the establishment of a day of prayer, and this was based off a narration from one of the companions or salaf.

Pax,
Sojourn

That is true ,Ibn Kathir and all of the Quranic Tafsir composers Quoted some varied narrations from the companions which represnts their personal understanding....
eg,
Two Sahaba (sodai and Qatada)understood the word as refering to sunday.

some other sahaba eg,Salman Alfaresi understood the word (EEdan) as means, a sign and a lesson to us and the future generation...


Ibn Abbas understood it as that the disciples were fasting 30 days !!!and broke their fast with this heavenly meal..

others narrated that the table contained fruits from paradise...


etc................


lots of narrations but none based on proofs...

there is a Day of Prayer in Christianity that is a repitition of a Sacred Meal, and it has been celebrated since the time of the Apostles.


That may be a valid understanding if we ignore the context and the language of the verse and force the meaning to be nothing but a repeated feast....

The verse suggested strongly the other meaning....... look for example this quote from Ibn Abbas:

تفسير التسهيل لعلوم التنزيل / ابن جزي الغرناطي
قال ابن عباس: المعنى تكون مجتمعاً لجميعنا أوّلنا وآخرنا في يوم نزولها خاصة لا عيداً يدور


Ibn Abbas said:The meaning is that the table will be a place where we gather All from the first to the last ,in the day it comes down not a repeated feast
(Tafsir,Altasheel le oloom altanzeel)

Ibn Qutaiba wrote:

وقال ابن قتيبة: عيداً، أي: مجمعاً

Eedan means a gathering


Almawerdi wrote:

Eedan means a sign and proof for us
(Tafsir Almawerdi)


Imam Tantawi wrote :

وقوله: { عيدا } أى سرورا وفرحا لنا، لأن كلمة العيد تستعمل بمعنى الفرح والسرور.

His saying (Eedan) means happiness and Joy and can't mean a feast to be repeated in that context .(Tafsir Alwasit)

In sum

The verse says simply:

Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table, a sign from you,that we all gather around it , feeling happiness and joy and strong faith...



Regards
 
Peace Al Manar,

Two Sahaba (sodai and Qatada)understood the word as refering to sunday.

I appreciate you mentioning this because I had no idea some of the companions explicitly identified it with Sunday. Do you mind providing the reference?

some other sahaba eg,Salman Alfaresi understood the word (EEdan) as means, a sign and a lesson to us and the future generation...

The statements from the sahaba you mention above and elsewhere don't contradict the establishment of Sunday as a Day of Prayer. For what established that day as a day of prayer can also be a lesson for future generations, and it could have been proceeded by a 30 day fast, etc.

Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table, a sign from you,that we all gather around it , feeling happiness and joy and strong faith...

These are some statements Ibn Kathir quotes:

As-Suddi commented that the Ayah means,
"We will take that day on which the table was sent down as a day of celebration, that we and those who come after us would consider sacred.''

Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that it means,
"A day of prayer.''

I think it's hard to passover that a significant number of sahaba believed it to be referring to a day of prayer.


Pax,
Sojourn
 
Q

Peace Sojourn

Peace Al Manar,



I appreciate you mentioning this because I had no idea some of the companions explicitly identified it with Sunday. Do you mind providing the reference?

Actually, you have referenced that already in your post


Sojourn; said:
As-Suddi commented that the Ayah means,
"We will take that day on which the table was sent down as a day of celebration, that we and those who come after us would consider sacred.''

Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that it means,
"A day of prayer.''




Sojourn; said:
The statements from the sahaba you mention above and elsewhere don't contradict the establishment of Sunday as a Day of Prayer. For what established that day as a day of prayer can also be a lesson for future generations.

Our question is that Sahabi believed that the verse suggests a repeated feast?

from his own words he said this day was a miracle show that been witnessed by the disciples that gave them a lesson in faith which the disciples told others about it and they told their sons grandsons etc......


but again this understanding ignore the word (Eedan) as if is it not there in the verse !



the same way the understanding of As-Suddi and Qatada suggest putting words between the lines of the verse!!!


Let's analyse the verse to find out why the understanding of the great Sahabi Ibn Abbas is the one that makes much sense:


قَالَ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ ٱللَّهُمَّ رَبَّنَآ أَنزِلْ عَلَيْنَا مَآئِدَةً مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ تَكُونُ لَنَا عِيداً لأَوَّلِنَا وَآخِرِنَا وَآيَةً مِّنْكَ وَٱرْزُقْنَا وَأَنتَ خَيْرُ ٱلرَّازِقِينَ

let's translate it literally


Jesus son of Mary said Allah May you send a table from heaven TO BE a feast for us our first and our the last


What (TO BE) refers to?

it refers to the table not to a day(as this flawed understanding suggests)....

A table to be a feast?

yes when a group of people gather around it having food and fun....


the meaning is simple and imposing the word(a day) doesn't make much sense...



Sojourn; said:
For what established that day as a day of prayer can also be a lesson for future generations, and it could have been proceeded by a 30 day fast, etc. .

Have we Eid ul-Fitr here?!:statisfie

by the way that was the understanding of Sahaby Ibn Abbas

وأخرج ابن جرير وابن أبي حاتم وأبو الشيخ عن ابن عباس. أنه كان يحدث عن عيسى ابن مريم أنه قال لبني إسرائيل: هل لكم أن تصوموا لله ثلاثين يوماً؟ ثم تسألوه فيعطيكم ما سألتم، فإن أجر العامل على من عمل له، ففعلوا ثم قالوا: يا معلم الخير قلت لنا إن أجر العامل على من عمل له، وأمرتنا أن نصوم ثلاثين يوماً ففعلنا، ولم نكن نعمل لأحد ثلاثين يوماً إلا أطعمنا، { هل يستطيع ربك أن ينزل علينا مائدة من السماء } إلى قوله { أحداً من العالمين } فأقبلت الملائكة تطير بمائدة من السماء عليها سبعة أحوات وسبعة أرغفة حتى وضعتها بين أيديهم، فأكل منها آخر الناس كما أكل منها أولهم.


Narrated Ibn Abbas ,Jesus told sons of Israel ,would you fast 30 days for God? afterwards ask him all what you want.... they did it ................ then the angels came with the table ,and on it 7 whales and seven pieces of bread !! then all the people therin ate, from their first till the last .!!!!



Have we Isra'iliyat there? yes,why not.

I have quoted that to let you know Sahab (may Allah bless their souls) had different understanding regarding the same issue..some got it right and some not ..........

but again such disagreement were not in matters that affects their basic beliefs ...


I think it's hard to passover that a significant number of sahaba believed it to be referring to a day of prayer. .

there were 2 sahaba versus other sahaba eg,Ibn Abbas (The one that viewed as the most knowledgeable of the Companions in tafsir) who understood it simply as it says literally ....... and that view is the one I'm convinced to...

and that is the lesson I had in years of reflecting the glorious Quran...

most of it should be understood literally ,and the narrations is weapon with two ends

it either elaborate the issue or build a wall between the reader and the verse,that he can't understand the original meaning intended for the verse but through such wall !!

Examples are many ,but let's not get offtopic...

I hope now you got the full picture been drawn in the books of Tafsir regarding the issue.. Tafsir doesn't mean only Ibn Kathir, though it is good book but it should be considered only an introduction to the science of tafsir ,it is though cared to be authentic as much as possible but it is not such tafsir that treat the Quranic language in depth ,showing its miraclelous liguestic nature as Al-Kashshaf neither such profound Tafsirs which shows how Quran and reason never conflicts as Tafsir Fakhruddīn al-Rāzī, Tfsir Fī Zilāl al-Qur'ān by Sayyid Quṭb,,Tafsir manar by Rashid Reda....


I hope one day this page which contains almost all the Tafsirs in Arabic http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp...o=114&tDisplay=yes&Page=4&Size=1&LanguageId=1

to open it one day ,finding all its content in English too...

Regards
 
I should have edited (but still i can't edit according to such strange rule)


Two Sahaba (sodai and Qatada)understood the word as refering to sunday


the fact that though they understood it as a reference to a feast but no Sahaba ever mentioned sunday..

the one who said Sunday is not Sahabi he is Ka'ab al-Ahbar

he said:
it came to Earth sunday that is why the christians make it as a feast....

قال كعب أنها نزلت يوم الأحد و لذلك اتخذه النصارى عيدا

and that is his own understanding which we have already shown why we can't buy it..


Regards
 
Just as an aside, is there an Islamic tradition as to why Christians worship on Sunday, or why their worship centers around a sacred meal Jesus had with His apostles?
 
Peace Sojourn

If you want to know what the reality regarding the supper and sunday consult the Quran and it has the answer:

The Quran is clear in the matter of the Sabbath

It affirms that the Sabbath day was really appointed for the Sons of Israel,and punished those who violated it:


4:47 O you who have been granted revelation [aforetime]! Believe in what We have [now] bestowed from on high in confirmation of whatever [of the truth] you already possess, lest We efface your hopes and bring them to an end [62] - just as We rejected those people who broke the sabbath: for God's will is always done.


2:65 for you are well aware of those from among you who profaned the sabbath, whereupon We said unto them, "Be as apes despicable!"


4:154 raising Mount Sinai high above them in witness of their solemn pledge. And We said unto them, “Enter the gate humbly”; [16] [7] and We told them, "Do not break the sabbath-law"; and We accepted from them a most solemn pledge.

7:163 And ask them about that town which stood by the sea: how its people would profane the sabbath whenever their fish came to them, breaking the water's surface, on a day on which they ought to have kept sabbath -because they would not come to them on other than sabbath-days! [129] Thus did We try them by means of their [own] iniquitous doings.


7:164 And whenever some people [130] among them asked [those who tried to restrain the sabbath-breakers], "Why do you preach to people whom God is about to destroy or [at least] to chastise with suffering severe?" -the pious ones [131] would answer, "In order to be free from blame before your Sustainer, and that these [transgressors, too,] might become conscious of Him."


The Sabbath is mentioned six times as a day based on divine order ,and not one time such Sunday issue,why?

cause,according to the Quran, there is nothing divine about selecting the Sunday ,If there is no last supper,no crucifiction,no resurrection ,according to the Quran ,will there be a Sunday which based on such claimed issues?!



Regards
 
The Quran is clear in the matter of the Sabbath

It affirms that the Sabbath day was really appointed for the Sons of Israel,and punished those who violated it:

Christians also recognize that the Sabbath is Friday at sunset till Saturday at sunset. But since Christians are not Sons of Israel, how does this apply to them?
 
Christians also recognize that the Sabbath is Friday at sunset till Saturday at sunset. But since Christians are not Sons of Israel, how does this apply to them?

You ask why christians should keep such Sabbath kept by the Jews ,instead of the so called (Lord's Day) Sunday?

And I tell you According to the Quran , none of them should be kept after the coming of Islam.......Friday is the day...


According to the Quran what day should be kept by the Jews or the christians before Islam?

It is Saturday ,cause the way Christians shifted to Sunday is not upon a divine order but human invention...

Regards
 
According to the Quran what day should be kept by the Jews or the christians before Islam?

It is Saturday ,cause the way Christians shifted to Sunday is not upon a divine order but human invention...
But how was that divine order, given specifically to Jews, applicable to Gentile Christians?

Also, how is it that Muslims know that the day of assembly specified in the Qur'an is to be on Friday and not on Saturday? I don't read Arabic, but the English translations I see appear to supply Friday (as the assumed day) rather than translate it from an Arabic. Does the Qur'an actually mention the name of the day, Friday, in the Arabic text?
 
But how was that divine order, given specifically to Jews, applicable to Gentile Christians?
Just to remember....

we are not having a two sided conversation between a Sabatarian and another christian..

I hope the discussion to be Quran verses Bible not Bible versus Bible...

Well, this order of Sabbath ,according to the Quran ,been kept not only by the Jews but by Jesus himself

3:50 "'I(Jesus) have come to you, to attest the Law which was before me.

those who kept the law of Torah after Jesus,rejecting the trinity and the concept of blood atonement till Islam ,are those in the dictionary of The Quran are called true christians...

Also, how is it that Muslims know that the day of assembly specified in the Qur'an is to be on Friday and not on Saturday? I don't read Arabic, but the English translations I see appear to supply Friday (as the assumed day) rather than translate it from an Arabic. Does the Qur'an actually mention the name of the day, Friday, in the Arabic text?




Sorry I can't get what you mean here

would you plz ,provide me with the verse you mean?
 
those who kept the law of Torah after Jesus,rejecting the trinity and the concept of blood atonement till Islam ,are those in the dictionary of The Quran are called true christians...

Can you identify these Christians historically?
 
Peace Sojourn

Peace Al-manar

If you want to know what the reality regarding the supper and sunday consult the Quran and it has the answer:

I know the reality of the Last Supper and Sunday, it's not really the issue at hand. And the Qur'an addresses very little if anything of what we recognize to be mainstream Christianity.

cause,according to the Quran, there is nothing divine about selecting the Sunday ,If there is no last supper,no crucifiction,no resurrection ,according to the Quran ,will there be a Sunday which based on such claimed issues?!

The thing is the Qur'an *does* mention a day of worship that was established after a miraculous meal. Both sahaba and great ulema have recognized the aya mentioned as referring to Sunday and a day of prayer. You personally disagree, while I believe the evidence is strong.


Pax,
Sojourn
 
peace Sojourn



Can you identify these Christians historically?

that needs another post inshaAllah...




Both sahaba and great ulema have recognized the aya mentioned as referring to Sunday and a day of prayer.

I thought My quotes would make you ,at least, no longer generalize ..



You personally disagree,.

and some Sahaby and great ulama disagree too..


while I believe the evidence is strong.

You know when I would suggest the evidence to be strong?

Only one word in the verse had it been another word, the matter would have been changed 100%

It is the word تكون (Takon) mentioned before (Eedan)

(Takon) which means (To be) has to refer to (the table)

I challenge anyone who studied Arabic to say otherwise....

Had the word been يكون (yakon) which means (to be) too, and could be used with a day, the meaning could possibly have been a reference to a day...


قَالَ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ ٱللَّهُمَّ رَبَّنَآ أَنزِلْ عَلَيْنَا مَآئِدَةً مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ تَكُونُ لَنَا عِيداً


Anyway I’m satisfied that you finally found what you think settled the matter in your mind …



Regards
 
Can you identify these Christians historically?

peace sojourn


The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus


what is the religion of Jesus?



42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).


but was the message of Jesus identical to that by Moses?

The gospel was not only a book of wisdom and preaching:

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.


But also a book of some new easy laws:


3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.


The true followers of the message of Jesus stay on Earth till day of judgment

3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


57:27 Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah. but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.



61:14 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.





In light of the Quranic verses we can define the term true Christian ,in accordance to 3 stages:

1-The life time of Jesus

any follower of the teachings ,new laws(of the gospel) been preached by Jesus.

2- After the life time of Jesus

any follower of the laws of the Torah , apply them, reject both the trinity and the concept of Jesus atoned sins...

under this category included lots of Jews,Ebionites and other groups whose work been discovered as the Gospel of Thomas ,and those whose work still under the sand yet to be discovered.

3- The coming of Islam

Once Islam comes , his set of laws which been documented ,been affirmed as the last message God sent,has to be followed.......



peace
 
peace sojourn


The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

What translation are you using? I did a search of 4 different English translations of the Qur'an and I could not find a single reference to the term "true Christian". I found plenty of times where the term "Christian" is used by itself. And well over a hundred times where the term "true" was used. But not a single occurance where they were used together. (BTW, I couldn't find the term "true Christian" used in any Hadith either.)


I suspect that this is not a term from the Qur'an, but your own understanding of what it means to be a "true Christian". For you, a Christian would be as you have described, one who follows the religion of Jesus, which I have no doubt you believe to have been Islam.

My question to you then is, would a "true Christian" be pleased with Muhammad? If Muhammad were, after receiving the knowledge that he did, to follow the desires of "true Christians" would Allah be his Wali or helper, or not?
 
Maybe you should consult a local imam or sheikh in your community that you can talk face to face with.
 
Is that addressed to me or someone else?

If not you,then may be me !

well, though till the end of my life I will have lots to learn,but I don't think one day I would consult a local imam or sheikh in my community ,for information....

anyway,thank you for your advice(if you really meant it for me)

God bless you


What translation are you using? I did a search of 4 different English translations of the Qur'an and I could not find a single reference to the term "true Christian".



you are right

I have used the term to differentiate between it and the term (christian) used by christians...



I suspect that this is not a term from the Qur'an, but your own understanding of what it means to be a "true Christian".

If ,according to the Glorious Quran,those who followed Jesus were Law keepers,never believed in Trinity,salvation etc.... then those are the true christians opposed to those false christians whom you know well....


If Muhammad were, after receiving the knowledge that he did, to follow the desires of "true Christians" would Allah be his Wali or helper, or not?


The true Christians before or After Islam?

If before Islam (whom I defined before),then Mohamed ,though the message he recieved is the same in the basic lines ,but he wouldn't follow their desires neither his own desires,but God's desires and his new message....
 
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