The ‘Mechanism’ Behind Intelligent Design

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what mutations have caused evolution? do you have a name for them and a mechanism of action?
All of them. Evolution is decent with modification. What do you mean by mechanism of action? Action implies an agency. I’m not going to choose your words for you.

mutations are identified we have loads of molecular biology and genetic books about them, you may google some of them 'frameshift, missense, nonsense' to name a few, can you show me how one or any have caused speciation?
It's your lucky day

how does natural selection explain Trinucleotide repeat expansion why do you collectively peddle the same crap over in an attempt to sound intelligent, but mum at best when it comes to mechanism of action? I mean isn't that what is missing from the 'God of the Gaps' story, why don't you fill the gaps with sound science? as well explain the motive and end result?

No, I'm sorry. The problem with the god of that gaps "story" is that it is a form of argument from ignorance. If there was no explanation for our evolutionary past/present, that does not mean you get to choose whatever you theory you like without providing any evidence for it. The god of the gaps theory has been around for ages and every time a gap in knowledge is filled the believers wait until they can’t ignore the evidence any longer and then find another smaller hole to shove god into.

I’m not going to sit here and have this conversation regress towards particle physics simply to satisfy that there are no gaps for your god to fit into. Provide us with some reason to believe a god exists, because withholding belief is the default position, as you would withhold belief in Odin or Quetzalcoatl.

As for the mechanism, you'll have to clarify what you mean. There are no motives in evolution via natural selection. There are no "end results", that is a byproduct of your religious beliefs.

All the best,


Faysal
 
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All of them. Evolution is decent with modification. What do you mean by Mechanism of action? Action implies an agency. I’m not going to choose your words for you.

Really? so such mutations as, nonsense mutation, point mutation, frameshift mutation , deletion , inversion haven't given us such things as, Cystic fibrosis, Duchenne muscular dystrophy , Beta thalassaemia (β-globin), Hurler syndrome, hypercholestreolemia etc etc according to you all of them have given us rock into fish into duck? that is great, let me be the first to applaud you and if I may escort you down to Stockholm for your Nobel prize ..

As for 'Mechanism of action' that was hard for you to understand? I mean it is the actual title of the page, expend some mild effort or don't bother write at all!

A mechanism of action, looks something like this:
If I am looking for how a mutation works or how a neurotransmitter works--


General Mechanism of Action

Neurotransmitters are formed in a presynaptic neuron and stored in small membrane-bound sacks, called vesicles , inside this neuron. When this neuron is activated, these intracellular vesicles fuse with the cell membrane and release their contents into the synapse, a process called exocytosis.
Once the neurotransmitter is in the synapse, several events may occur. It may (1) diffuse across the synapse and bind to a receptor on the postsynaptic membrane, (2) diffuse back to the presynaptic neuron and bind to a presynaptic receptor causing modulation of neurotransmitter release, (3) be chemically altered by an enzyme in the synapse, or (4) be transported into a nearby cell. For the chemical message to be passed to another cell, however, the neurotransmitter must bind to its protein receptor on the postsynaptic side. The binding of a neurotransmitter to its receptor is a key event in the action of all neurotransmitters.
That is actually a superficial level of doing it but I'd still find that acceptable, I don't expect everyone to be a walking encyclopedic effort on molecular biology and biochemistry, however if you are going to engage in a topic that is repulsed by 'the god of the gap' then please show us what is better, preferably articulate it in your own words rather than referencing us to some website from which we are magically to draw some brilliant conclusion.. Do you think you can do the same instead of saying 'all of them?

That is pretty much all you have to do with your pearls, sort of like your previous complaints about the laryngeal nerve, if you'd like to sever it from the vagus, perhaps you can discuss with us the route that 'nature' should have rather taken, how it came to take that first route to begin with, which parts were innervated first and why.. I am not interested in poetic science!



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Thanks, I found it as informative as this:
What happens to your soul after Death?

http://www.funeralplan.com/askexperts/soul.html
amusing and virtually appealing!



No, I'm sorry. The problem with the god of that gaps "story" is that it is a form of argument from ignorance. If there was no explanation for our evolutionary past/present, that does not mean you get to choose whatever you theory you like without providing any evidence for it. The god of the gaps theory has been around for ages and every time a gap in knowledge is filled the believers wait until they can’t ignore the evidence any longer and then find another smaller hole to shove god into.

And what would you choose to call this? scientifically sound?




.. you mistake the swaggering bluster of fools as sound scientific evidence, but that is indeed because you take lesser gods for sound reason... as Dr. Bert Thompson put in his reason number four:
Reason #4
Without a doubt, there are many who believe in evolution because they have rejected God. For those who refuse to believe in the Creator, evolution becomes their only escape. They generally make no pretense of believing it based on anything other than their disbelief in God. Henry Fairfield Osborn, one of the most famous evolutionists of the early twentieth century, suggested: “In truth, from the earliest stages of Greek thought man has been eager to discover some natural cause of evolution, and to abandon the idea of supernatural intervention in the order of nature” (1917, p. ix). Henry Morris noted: “Evolution is the natural way to explain the origin of things for those who do not know and acknowledge the true God of creation. In fact, some kind of evolution is absolutely necessary for those who would reject God” (1966, p. 98).
Sir Arthur Keith of Great Britain wrote: “Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable” (as quoted in Criswell, 1972, p. 73). Professor D.M.S. Watson, who held the position of the Chair of Evolution at the University of London for more than twenty years, echoed the same sentiments when he stated that “evolution itself is accepted by zoologists, not because it has been observed to occur or can be proven by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is incredible” (1929, 123:233). These kinds of statements leave little to the imagination, and make it clear that those who say such things believe in evolution not because of any evidence, but instead because they have made up their minds, a priori, that they are not going to believe in God.
In his text, Man’s Origin: Man’s Destiny, the eminent United Nations scientist, A.E. Wilder-Smith, observed that “Darwinism and Neo-Darwinism, rightly or wrongly, have been used everywhere in the East and West, in the hands of the atheists and agnostics, as the main weapon against the biblical doctrine of origins” (1975, p. 31). For the person who stubbornly refuses to believe in God, belief in evolution becomes automatic. Similarly, opposition to God as the Creator, the Bible and His Word, and the system of origins the Bible describes become just as automatic. Whenever a person rids himself of God, he simultaneously (even if unknowingly) embraces evolution. By his disbelief, he has eliminated creation as an option regarding his origin.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/238

I’m not going to sit here and have this conversation regress towards particle physics simply to satisfy that there are to gaps for your god to fit into. Provide us with some reason to believe a god exists, because withholding belief is the default position, as you would withhold belief in Odin or Quetzalcoatl.
Who is asking you to sit here and explain anything? I think you have demonstrated your abilities in your opening statements and in fact they echo all you write here.. why you are under the impression that Muslims aboard regard what you say as of value is a mystery to me? you spend too much time on an Islamic forum, and yet your position stands on more absurd grounds-
As for the mechanism, you'll have to clarify what you mean. There are no motives in evolution via natural selection. There are no "end results", that is a byproduct of your religious beliefs.

All the best,
See previous paragraph on the matter, if you can't discuss the marrow of this with any dexterity then don't waste my time or yours, I have already wasted my day off on the other two and not looking for new gadflies to while my hours!...

all the best!
 
I have no idea what you are trying to say here?
How terribly convenient.

The mistake we both made was to try make a sweeping statement about all TRE disorders, but it seems the correct thing to do is look at each disorder individually.

Fragile X seems to perpetuate because the stable and premutation forms can be passed down many generations with little or no effect on the carriers. The gene can be inherited either without change, or with change but with no manifestation (i.e. when there are less than 200 repeats).

Over several generations one stable or early premutation carrier could conceivably pass down a premutation X to hundreds of asymptomatic descendants with gradually increasing repeat length.

Huntington's mutations seem to be more unstable than Fragile X, but can propagate because a carrier will often pass on their genes before the disease manifests any symptoms. Genes are quite often passed on with small expansions or no expansions, and in the case of transmission from a female parent the mean change is a small contraction.

We must also consider that new mutations can occur. Even if all existing carriers of these TREs disappeared completely, there is nothing to prevent new cases from emerging.
There was a time when no humans lived and there was one shrubs, again what is your point?
I wasn't making a point, I was answering your question.
 
How terribly convenient.
How so?
The mistake we both made was to try make a sweeping statement about all TRE disorders, but it seems the correct thing to do is look at each disorder individually.
That is a mistake you have made.. I am not looking for what the disorder is, rather how the disorder reconciles with 'Natural Selection' You lose sight of what this is about every so often and I imagine it is because you have no idea what the hell you are talking about!
Fragile X seems to perpetuate because the stable and premutation forms can be passed down many generations with little or no effect on the carriers. The gene can be inherited either without change, or with change but with no manifestation (i.e. when there are less than 200 repeats).blah blah http://hdlighthouse.org/diagnosis/cag/updates/1481cag_expansion.php.
As I told you previously, I don't need a genetics lesson, this doesn't answer the Q, just takes a long circuitous route for you to bypass saying.. you know you are absolutely right, here we have several disorders where unfit genes survive and perpetuate rapidly with no correction or halting of the process!


We must also consider that new mutations can occur. Even if all existing carriers of these TREs disappeared completely, there is nothing to prevent new cases from emerging.
Indeed.. again what does this have to do with the subject matter? de novo mutations are born all the time!

I wasn't making a point, I was answering your question.
You haven't managed to do that yet!

all the best!
 
Anyone who is halfway capable of reading English would understand. I suspect you are being obtuse.
I am not looking for what the disorder is, rather how the disorder reconciles with 'Natural Selection'
No, you aren't looking at that at all.
You have access to all the journals and all the information you could require to make a decision, you could present it here and say "OK, let's look at all this and try to see if we can make sense of it".

You don't do that. You make generalisations, misrepresent the idea you claim to be trying to grasp and even feign a lack of understanding simple sentences when it suits you.

You do anything but present your case in such a way that someone could make a clear judgement based on it.



Your argument, quoted (correct me if I'm wrong):
"Natural selection allegedly results in only those best adapted tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated.. well in trinucleotide repeat expansion unstable and defective genes increase and repeat count with each successive generation."

The fundamental mistake is, as I already said:

Natural selection does not result in the survival of only the best adapted.
 
Anyone who is halfway capable of reading English would understand. I suspect you are being obtuse.
I love your intellectual bankruptcy!
No, you aren't looking at that at all.
You are not exactly the source anyone should look to receive any reliable sensical info. from!
You have access to all the journals and all the information you could require to make a decision, you could present it here and say "OK, let's look at all this and try to see if we can make sense of it".
The Journals don't deal with the poetic science!
in fact, that is what sets apart the pioneers from the conformists, asking the right questions!

You don't do that. You make generalisations, misrepresent the idea you claim to be trying to grasp and even feign a lack of understanding simple sentences when it suits you.
If you scroll back a few pages you'll see that you are the one who single cherry-picked the one disorder you alleged you could deal with-- which you couldn't
1- you didn't even know it came in Juvenile form
2- when brought the entire picture preferred to discuss the one.
3- you take whatever I say and write an essay about, if it is anticipation, then all of a sudden that is your pet project, if it is penetrance, then that is your new pet project, and it is indeed because you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.. it is never about frafile X or polyglutamine or Huntington it is about how this subset of genetic disorders reconcile with a 'known' mechanism of 'Natural Selection' Problem is you are unable to defend your beliefs, because you have no idea why it is you believe in them.. you have joined a group of Illuminati and are gifted with science by proxy.. unfortunately belonging to the cult of atheism doesn't make scholars out of fools!
You do anything but present your case in such a way that someone could make a clear judgement based on it.
Anyone who is following this thread will be the judge of that!



Your argument, quoted (correct me if I'm wrong):
"Natural selection allegedly results in only those best adapted tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated.. well in trinucleotide repeat expansion unstable and defective genes increase and repeat count with each successive generation."

The fundamental mistake is, as I already said:

Natural selection does not result in the survival of only the best adapted.


here is the meriam webster definition:



Main Entry: natural selection
Function: noun
Date: 1857
: a natural process that results in the survival and reproductive success of individuals or groups best adjusted to their environment and that leads to the perpetuation of genetic qualities best suited to that particular environment


now, I know it is difficult but try to carry that thought to a genetic level!


all the best!
 
in fact, that is what sets apart the pioneers from the conformists, asking the right questions!
Followers of millennia old creation stories = pioneers?
If you scroll back a few pages you'll see that you are the one who single cherry-picked the one disorder you alleged you could deal with--
Feel free to criticise me rather than address the points made.
here is the meriam webster definition:
If we're going to speak of natural selection in the strictest terms, TRE sufferers are not involved since they are not among the best adapted. That TREs exist therefore does not have any bearing on whether natural selection or evolution by natural selection are valid. There will almost always be some organisms who fall into the category of 'not best adapted'.

What does that really tell us about anything?
 
Followers of millennia old creation stories = pioneers?Feel free to criticise me rather than address the points made.
As opposed to followers of a couple of century old tarradiddles and enfeebled tales which they can't defend , demonstrate or refine to save their dear life?.. yeah you really have a point.. btw.. exactly what is it? I have read a couple of fatuous manipulated cuts and pastes that vaguely address the points I brought to the table rather drown us in definitions which ironically I had addressed earlier!

If we're going to speak of natural selection in the strictest terms, TRE sufferers are not involved since they are not among the best adapted.
How are they best adapted? Death by forty or before-- mental retardation and cerebellar ataxia are well adapted in your mind?
That TREs exist therefore does not have any bearing on whether natural selection or evolution by natural selection are valid. There will almost always be some organisms who fall into the category of 'not best adapted'.
You decided that they don't fall into that category because? There is no genetics involved? There is no expansion over generations of mutated codons? I see your point yet again
What does that really tell us about anything?
You are not even a challenge, I don't understand why you insist on publicly humiliating yourself? The point is keep it simple as it seems your mind can't accommodate more!

all the best!
 
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Read it again, I said "not among the best adapted".

If they are not among the best adapted, natural selection is not concerned with them and therefore no reconciliation need be done.
I made a typo, nonetheless it doesn't change the fact of the matter.. why should something that occurs 'naturally' in 'nature', and subject to its 'laws' according to you and yours be left out of the process or excluded?
in fact it was never merely about their survival though they are less fit, it was about the perpetuation of their 'unnatural selection' many generations down the line...

if they are excluded then I guess you can exclude everything from your Darwinian bull?!

all the best
 
why should something that occurs 'naturally' in nature, and subject to its laws according to you and yours be left out of the process?
Why should organisms that are not best adapted not be subject to a law that only concerns itself with the best adapted?
Because that's how it's defined, perhaps.
in fact it was never merely about their survival, it was about the perpetuation of their 'unnatural selection' many generations down the line...
It's hard to believe that your photographic memory accidentally erased your earlier statement:

"Your question is irrelevant and insinuated in the middle of a topic on how 'Natural Selection' reconciles with trinucleotide repeat expansion disorders."

The definition you posted makes clear that your post is merely about the survival of the best adapted.
The definition you posted has nothing to do with perpetuation of the lesser adapted.
 
Why should organisms that are not best adapted not be subject to a law that only concerns itself with the best adapted?

oh, I don't know.. something about their existence and non-extinction I assume should allow for that second glance?!
Because that's how it's defined, perhaps.
The definition and what exists are indeed at odds, perhaps therein lies the problem?

It's hard to believe that your photographic memory accidentally erased your earlier statement:

"Your question is irrelevant and insinuated in the middle of a topic on how 'Natural Selection' reconciles with trinucleotide repeat expansion disorders."
Indeed, You were making it about Huntington or fragile X which it isn't.. however, what about 'trinucleotide repeat expansion' are we concerned with? .. it is like you have run out of crap to say and just pulling anything out of a hat!
The definition you posted makes clear that your post is merely about the survival of the best adapted.
then what do we do with the not best adapted so we can make the definition have some merit and not along the lines of century old tales??

The definition you posted has nothing to do with perpetuation of the lesser adapted.
Leaving something paramount out of the picture, should allude to the fact that there is both error and incompleteness in the definition and the mechanism described.. yet again, thank you for reaching the correct conclusion on your own!


all the best!
 
The definition and what exists are indeed at odds, perhaps therein lies the problem?...
...Leaving something paramount out of the picture, should allude to the fact that there is both error and incompleteness in the definition and the mechanism described...
...then what do we do with the not best adapted so we can make the definition have some merit and not along the lines of century old tales??
The definition and what exists are not at odds. In any given situation there will always be a genome that is the "best adapted", even if that only refers to the best of a bad bunch.

Each law has it's own scope. If you don't like the scope of natural selection, perhaps you should do some research and formulate your own law.
 
The definition and what exists are not at odds. In any given situation there will always be a genome that is the "best adapted", even if that only refers to the best of a bad bunch.
The 'bad bunch' tend to die out and become extinct.. not flourish! .. if you need another 5 pages to understand that, then I suggest you work on it on your own private time and stop wasting mine....
Each law has it's own scope. If you don't like the scope of natural selection, perhaps you should do some research and formulate your own law.

I neither accept mutations nor natural selection as incontrovertible evidence for speciation.. They are concerned with what they are concerned with, the first with a disease state/ death/cancer or in the case of silent mutation (no change) and the latter as catch all phrase for adaptation a known and observable fact, no more no less!

by the way there is a difference between 'its' as in possessive form of and 'it's' -- I know you and your pal are so concerned with my English.. I think I should share in that concern from folks who pose themselves as authority in every field!

all the best
 
The 'bad bunch' tend to die out and become extinct.. not flourish! .. if you need another 5 pages to understand that, then I suggest you work on it on your own private time and stop wasting mine....
I understand it perfectly, but the important phrase in there is
"tend to die out". That's not the same as "will die out" or "must die out".
I neither accept mutations nor natural selection as incontrovertible evidence for speciation..
I'm aware of that, you mention it frequently.
by the way there is a difference between 'its' as in possessive form of and 'it's' -- I know you and your pal are so concerned with my English..
I couldn't give a monkey's about your English except when you're misrepresenting or misinterpreting something. He's the English teacher. Ta for the heads up.
 
I understand it perfectly, but the important phrase in there is
"tend to die out". That's not the same as "will die out" or "must die out".
important to whom? the definition or what exists?

I'm aware of that, you mention it frequently.I couldn't give a monkey's about your English except when you're misrepresenting or misinterpreting something. He's the English teacher.
I have done no such thing, in fact I'll go so far to say, it is the last ammo of the deficient mind.. if you can't focus on the subject matter then find something ancillary to pin your **** on and deflect from the topic!

Ta for the heads up.
glad I was of help..

all the best
 
important to whom? the definition or what exists?
It's not part of the definition. You can infer it from the definition, but it's not essential to it.

As I said, if you want to create another law that deals with the rest of the population, fill your boots. I recommend that you name it "natural non-specific non-selection".

Also when you're talking about TREs, would it not be sensible to consider what it means to be 'best adapted' in modern times? If a carrier is given social, medical and financial support, does that not move them up the list of 'best adapted to modern life'?
 
It's not part of the definition. You can infer it from the definition, but it's not essential to it.

As I said, if you want to create another law that deals with the rest of the population, fill your boots. I recommend that you name it "natural non-specific non-selection".

Also when you're talking about TREs, would it not be sensible to consider what it means to be 'best adapted' in modern times? If a carrier is given social, medical and financial support, does that not move them up the list of 'best adapted to modern life'?

we're done here, see previous for expansive replies & my views.. I don't like repeating myself nor idle talk with someone who refuses to make scientific sense!
this has nothing to do with finances or social support, are we discussing genetics in relation to evolution or underwater basket-weaving?-- what a joke!
 
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we're done here, see previous for expansive replies & my views.. I don't like repeating myself nor idle talk with someone who refuses to make scientific sense!
You're the one who tried to apply an idea to a situation for which it wasn't intended.
this has nothing to do with finances or social support, are we discussing genetics in relation to evolution not underwater basket-weaving -- what a joke!
Your favoured definition:
"a natural process that results in the survival and reproductive success of individuals or groups best adjusted to their environment and that leads to the perpetuation of genetic qualities best suited to that particular environment"

It doesn't say what that environment can or cannot be. This is why I noted that the distinction between natural and artificial is arbitrary since everything could be considered natural as it all comes from 'nature'.
 
wow what a strong rebuttal from you, accusing the person of being a liar without actually giving any refutation or evidence to counter what the other side has said.
As this thread (predictably) got a little sidetracked, I'm going to post a more specific rebuttal lest I be accused of trying to wriggle away when challenged.


I suppose the first thing is the watchmaker argument, an argument I love because it is so obviously flawed but at the same time feels intuitively true. It boils down to:

"A system so complex can't be uncreated, so an even more complex uncreated being must have created it."

If that isn't the mother of all contradictions I don't know what is.
Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity, which is about the ‘special’ characteristics of Light
The Special Theory of Relativity is about the equivalence of inertial reference frames.

photons of Light energy do not show any of the three necessary characteristics to be part of the physical universe.
There aren't any criteria to determine what is and isn't part of the 'physical universe', probably because as far as
we can tell there isn't anything else apart from the 'physical universe'.

they are not involved in the flow of time;
Light has a velocity, which has a time component.

When asked why the sub-atomic particles joined together into the more complex arrangements of nuclei and atoms science
answers that it is due to the ‘electromagnetic force’.
No, nuclei are held together by the Strong Nuclear Force.

And so on... it just gets more bizarre the more you read.
The statement "I was many years ago a university professor with a background in theoretical physics.." is almost certainly untrue.
 
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