Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

[Hugo]

Yes, Qur'an is the false book written by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), you are correct..

I assure you it is not first time, Unbelievers like you are still exists today as before. I expect that.

Even idol Unbelievers drowned easily during Noah (PUBH)
Unbelievers argued against Abraham (PBUH)
Unbelievers argued against Moses (PBUH)
More clown Unbelievers still argued against Jesus (PBUH)
More crazy Unbelievers still argued wasting time against Muhammad (PBUH)

Prophet Jacobs, Lot, Adam, David, Solomon, Job, Jonah, Joseph, Aaron, so on...... All the messages are SAME and different role models.
.
Amazingly, some people still unable to perceive the simple messages of the Qur'an (last reminder of testament) before your time expire.

I don't think I have said and I cannot recall anyone else saying its is a false book only that it is in my view impossible to prove that one way or the other - it is a matter of personal believe. It is easy just to re-arrange your words to show how shallow your argument is:

Amazingly, some people still unable to perceive the simple messages of the Bible (last reminder of testament) before your time expire.

 

[Hugo]

Re: Kinds of Proof

Indeed, you can reject the null hypothesis or fail to reject it. has this been applied to any books of philosophy though? I mean how do you think the bible will do in comparison?

Hugo - I don't want to be picky for the sake of it but one cannot have a hypothesis in a formal sense about the Bible or Qu'ran because it would be impossible to construct a trial to test it. For example, you might say then Qu'ran existed before time began or if you like you could construct an informal hypothesis that states that but its worthless because it cannot be tested.

I agree again, and even though the Quran is filled with signs for us to ponder and reflect the very second chapter states:

Muhsin Khan - 2:2 This is the Book (the Quran), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Hugo - as others have pointed out this amounts to circular reasoning and if your logic was sound ANY book can make the same claim and is hence devine.

as in believe in the unseen, the things that one doesn't know, by placing some measure of confidence in the rest you can then reject or fail to reject!
and that is really what you'd do in any experiment with a P value, a confidence interval, types I or II errors. There is no book more studied or memorized or recited than the Quran, it has been scrutinized by every possible mean, and it resolute and falsifiable!

This last section is just mumbo-jumbo nonsense because you cannot conduct experiments which involve God. It is interesting you say it is falsifiable so you presumably have a trail of some kind that involves God - what is it? I would say that it is unfalsifiable and that mean it is not possible to prove it is from God and not possible to prove it is not. I have made no claims about the Qu'ran so there is nothing to crumble - it's you who are making claims.

 

[جوري]

Re: Kinds of Proof

Hugo - I don't want to be picky for the sake of it but one cannot have a hypothesis in a formal sense about the Bible or Qu'ran because it would be impossible to construct a trial to test it. For example, you might say then Qu'ran existed before time began or if you like you could construct an informal hypothesis that states that but its worthless because it cannot be tested.

See my very last paragraph on this!
However I agree, there are some parts that have to be taken purely on faith and I have already quoted from the second chapter some several posts ago addressing that very point which you have kindly quoted.. (speak of circular logic)!

Hugo - as others have pointed out this amounts to circular reasoning and if your logic was sound ANY book can make the same claim and is hence devine.

The Entire Quran isn't contingent on three verses, as surely just as some of its contents happened and we can only glean a lesson, some are yet to happen from which we are to draw wisdom, some concerned with daily affairs from which we are to take heed, some concerned with govt. which we are to follow. Some concerned with inheritance from which we are to be studied, some numerical wonders from which we are to marvel. etc etc etc.
The Quran doesn't deal with one aspect of human life, rather every aspect of human life and in many parts can its divinity be elucidated, if nothing else at all, the mere rhyme and beauty of its language where verses revealed decades apart to be placed in almost a computerized fashion in their right place to match in meaning, context, rhyme, syntax would smack in the face the most indolent of researchers!

This last section is just mumbo-jumbo nonsense because you cannot conduct experiments which involve God. It is interesting you say it is falsifiable so you presumably have a trail of some kind that involves God - what is it? I would say that it is unfalsifiable and that mean it is not possible to prove it is from God and not possible to prove it is not. I have made no claims about the Qu'ran so there is nothing to crumble - it's you who are making claims.

You can't conduct experiments to prove that someone has a headache or depression, pain or schizophrenia, yet with every field you can set up criteria which maybe in part subjective but agreed upon by the majority.. you can't prove or falsify anything even in science-- I believe we have already established that!-- t why keep dancing around the same moot point? I can't do your homework for you, and I don't want to write ad nauseam on topics that you prefer to merely scratch the surface of than address content of which you can't later exonerate yourself given the very title of the thread!


(again, I kindly ask you not to write in huge quotes as they are hard to follow and re-quote)

all the best!

 

[Hugo]

The Quran likewise is translated to every language. One however can always go back to the source and make sure that men don't turn into gods by chinese whispers. And to the contrary Jesus meant that his message be understood by a select few:Thanks for today's funnies as always relaxing and virtually appealing!

The line in Bold cannot be true or did you mean the rather obvious 'it can be translated'.

 

[Predator]

Amazingly, some people still unable to perceive the simple messages of the Bible (last reminder of testament) before your time expire.

What message are you talking about ? Jesus never said that "I am God" in the Bible.He said " My father is greater than I , My father is greater than All and I can of my ownself do nothing . John 5:30. Jesus isnt not worthy of being god making these sort of statements

Christ didnt die for anybody sins.Nobody dies for another person sin . God doesnt sacrifice an innocent man( his own "son" or prophet) to please the guilty . This is against his justice , because he says according your bible the soul that sinneth it shall die

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

 

[جوري]

The line in Bold cannot be true or did you mean the rather obvious 'it can be translated'.

Semantics?

This is what I meant:

http://quran.nu/

all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Having looked through these postings there is almost nowhere a serious attempt at proof so I thought I might post some things to think about if you are serious about the idea of proof.

There must be some people here who are serious about the idea of 'proof', as the word is used here very often. The trouble is, it's often used by people whose definition of the word is much less rigorous than 'proof' as used by scientists or mathematicians.

I don't think many of the Muslims who've responded so far are interested in even considering the questions that have been put to them in this thread, let alone answering them. The one who's come closest, as I mentioned before, is Osman, who at least said he didn't know and would just trust in Allah's infinite wisdom. That is the honest approach, instead of the defensive appeals to irrelevance that have flooded the thread.

Peace

 

[Hugo]

Re: Kinds of Proof

You can't conduct experiments to prove that someone has a headache or depression, pain or schizophrenia, yet with every field you can set up criteria which maybe in part subjective but agreed upon by the majority.. you can't prove or falsify anything even in science-- I believe we have already established that!-- t why keep dancing around the same moot point? I can't do your homework for you, and I don't want to write ad nauseam on topics that you prefer to merely scratch the surface of than address content of which you can't later exonerate yourself given the very title of the thread!

I have already spoken at length about the dangers of using criteria and how easy it is to end up with a biased set and I am surprised you set such store by it - for example, the Mayo clinic have a set of criteria for depression and it might be useful but tomorrow or next year the set might be different - it is also true that it must be possible to create a completely different set of criteria to do the same task. At best then all this can do is give an indication that someone might be depressed. We can do surveys to seek views and calculate various starts, we could try to correlate it with blood results and so on but none of this amounts to proof only to an increased or decreased confidence level in the criteria but we would not know if there were a better set.

There is a sense in which you cannot prove something absolutely but that is not the point - the point is we can at least work out HOW it might be proved and so conduct and experiment - or more precisely we can work out how it might be falsified. So I am not an expert in depression but I would say there is no way such a set of criteria might be falsified. All we know is that it is or is not a useful indicator.

However, there is an old saying that 'applause is not a form of proof' and because many Muslims in the Board think that for example the Qu'ran records scientific ideas is not in any way a proof.

 

[Hugo]

What message are you talking about ? Jesus never said that "I am God" in the Bible.He said " My father is greater than I , My father is greater than All and I can of my ownself do nothing . John 5:30. Jesus isnt not worthy of being god making these sort of statements

Christ didnt die for anybody sins.Nobody dies for another person sin. God doesnt sacrifice an innocent man( his own "son" or prophet) to please the guilty . This is against his justice , because he says according your bible the soul that sinneth it shall die

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

There is a verse that says John 14:10 (NIV)

10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

This if OFF topic but if you wish to consider the Christian idea of the trinity start a new thread. While you doing that consider this who does Allah forgive sins - is it because you are good, you store up good works, he might be merciful to you - how does he do it.

 

[جوري]

Re: Kinds of Proof

Greetings,


There must be some people here who are serious about the idea of 'proof', as the word is used here very often.

Peace

Including by non-Muslim folks who start threads? What do we call that? baiting?

I have already spoken at length about the dangers of using criteria and how easy it is to end up with a biased set and I am surprised you set such store by it - for example, the Mayo clinic have a set of criteria for depression and it might be useful but tomorrow or next year the set might be different - it is also true that it must be possible to create a completely different set of criteria to do the same task. At best then all this can do is give an indication that someone might be depressed. We can do surveys to seek views and calculate various starts, we could try to correlate it with blood results and so on but none of this amounts to proof only to an increased or decreased confidence level in the criteria but we would not know if there were a better set.

If you set stringent criteria for depression today, you may set likewise stringent criteria for other types/branches/studies/texts tomorrow.. I don't see any danger in that or why it should be exempt..
I'd love to see the blood test where you can correlate subjective impressions to interpret for us beyond a reasonable doubt level of pain from a headache or its intensity, or location, or even duration--

There is a sense in which you cannot prove something absolutely but that is not the point - the point is we can at least work out HOW it might be proved and so conduct and experiment - or more precisely we can work out how it might be falsified. So I am not an expert in depression but I would say there is no way such a set of criteria might be falsified. All we know is that it is or is not a useful indicator.

You'll always have trials for or against anything.. studies that milk is good for you, studies that milk isn't good for you, studies that circumcision is good for you studies that circumcision is bad for you .. God has given us reason and hopefully the tools to sort through waste and find a good nugget!

However, there is an old saying that 'applause is not a form of proof' and because many Muslims in the Board think that for example the Qu'ran records scientific ideas is not in any way a proof.

applause is usually a demonstration to work that has moved us in some way.. and Just because you weren't moved by it or find it remarkable in every sense should it denote that it isn't moving and remarkable in every sense...


all the best


p.s

thanks for writing in this style.. not only do I have poor vision but am not very dexterous with computers.. making someone's life easier is a commendable trait..

 

[Hugo]

when you have christian folks thinking the earth was flat in the 12th c. it would indeed seem miraculous that an atom or smaller is mentioned 600AD.

Hugo - do you seriously think that no one else thought the world was flat except Christians? It is reported reliably that Bin Bas in the 90s supported the idea that he later denied it what possible relevance can it have to cite stupidity as an argument.

I have established for you in the thread as well that there is something smaller than an atom as an atom indeed is capable of splitting, that is what we call the transcendent nature of the Quran which the Quran itself mentions of its nature--that it is relevant for every century not just one century and that is exactly why you don't need a group of priests to convene every few years and throw parts of it out or add some in to make sense of it

Hugo - you established nothing, you simple STATED a supposed truth about the Qu'ran, I think you would do well to be honest and look at how often the Muslim community dammed its scientists - I gave you one example in an earlier post about the first Muslim Nobel laureate.

Prophecies Made in the Qur’an. The defeat of the Persians by the Romans within a number of years, Allah said: “The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious. Within three to nine years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with Allah, (before the defeat of the Romans by the Persians, and after the defeat of the Persians by the Romans). And on that day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by Allah to the Romans against the Persians).”[/B] [Ar-Rum: 2-4]

Hugo - some translation don't use the word 'Romans' at all and Dawood suggests it about Greeks and Persian in 615AD so I think there is a little doubt here.

We have set the criteria for you with which to compare literature based on content.. if you can't follow guidelines, then don't waste your time and mine!
Go ahead then and point out the contradictions instead of concocting cockamamie analogies from which no one is amused apparently except you!

In think this last section is talking about someone else's is post as I have no idea what criteria and I cannot recall making an analogy so what are you are talking about

 

[dragonofzenshu]

Your personal truth is defined by what you believe is right in your heart.

you cant really prove god actually wrote the quran its like telling someone to close their eyes in a dark room and saying' ok, ok.... what is in the space here????" and he cant see cuz of the darkness of the space in the room

 

[cat eyes]

Your personal truth is defined by what you believe is right in your heart.

you cant really prove god actually wrote the quran its like telling someone to close their eyes in a dark room and saying' ok, ok.... what is in the space here????" and he cant see cuz of the darkness of the space in the room

Then you should read holy Qur'an dragon and then after words try and write something like it thats your challenge

 

[dragonofzenshu]

Then you should read holy Qur'an dragon and then after words try and write something like it thats your challenge

maybe, but you must pay me $250000 money in exchange :raging::raging:

 

[جوري]

Hugo - do you seriously think that no one else thought the world was flat except Christians? It is reported reliably that Bin Bas in the 90s supported the idea that he later denied it what possible relevance can it have to cite stupidity as an argument.

I have no idea who bin bas is, but I am sure he wasn't in charge of a sovereign nation putting scholars foreign or domestic to crushing defeat or death because it contradicted biblical beliefs!

Hugo - you established nothing, you simple STATED a supposed truth about the Qu'ran, I think you would do well to be honest and look at how often the Muslim community dammed its scientists - I gave you one example in an earlier post about the first Muslim Nobel laureate.

Making a sentence of generality isn't in and of itself a rebuttal. A heretic doesn't represent the Muslim community, nor is he the subject of the specific subject of this discussion. We are speaking atoms as mentioned in the Quran, and I have gone ahead and shown you that modern day Muslim scientists from that region whether Nobel winners or not go on to use the same term as mentioned in the Quran.. you reaching in to a bag to being a topic of no relevance either to the term or to the one who has gone on to win a Nobel and is known to his countrymen and fellow Muslims as 3alim zharra doesn't follow fro the premise.. it is a bizarre addendum that doesn't belong, or has any sort of relevance to the subject!

Hugo - some translation don't use the word 'Romans' at all and Dawood suggests it about Greeks and Persian in 615AD so I think there is a little doubt here.

again, I ask why should I go for the rendition of a translator and not that of scholars or the Quran itself? the doubt is only yours to keep as the chapter itself is entitled (AR'Rum) surely if you would simply pronounce it you'd know whom it is addressing!

In think this last section is talking about someone else's is post as I have no idea what criteria and I cannot recall making an analogy so what are you are talking about

That is true, I am addressing the other fellow who said there are contradictions but failed to point them out!

all the best

 

[جوري]

you cant really prove god actually wrote the quran

God didn't write the Quran, he authored it through his servants. If you have doubts of that, then you can bring us your substantiated proofs of otherwise with dates and names and whys!

all the best!

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Regarding the topic of this thread - 'is it possible to prove the Qur'an is the very Words of God?'

It has been Allaah the Most High's way that whenever He sends a prophet, He gives that prophet certain miracles and signs to prove his prophethood to his people (for example, the miracles of Moses and Jesus).

In the case of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), he was given the Qur'an as the ultimate proof of his prophethood. Note, however, that it wasn't the only miracle of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but it is the only one which is permanent i.e. not restricted to a particular time or place. It is a miracle for all generations after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to see and realise.

We can therefore appreciate that there must be something about the Qur'an that makes it stand out from all other scriptures proclaimed to be divine, something that indicates it is the truth, something that proves it is indeed the very Words of Allaah (swt).

The beauty of the Qur'an is that it is not miraculous in only one facet, but rather from all facets and angles that one can look at it. Thus the miraculous nature of the Qur'an cannot be limited to one list. In this thread it seems we have attempted to begin examining two or three of these aspects. However, many more exist, and it is important to consider all of the miraculous facets in combination, as the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is not by any one of them only. Examples of these are the following:

1. The language and style of the Qur'an
2. The incapability to produce anything similar to it by the disbelievers during the Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) time and those after them.
3. The stories and accounts of the nations and prophets of old, since the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had no recourse to such information.
4. The predictions which occurred in the Qur'an, and which later came true
5. The perfect belief of Monotheism - the attribution of all that befits Allaah and the negation of all that does not befit Him, and the call of the Creator to the created to worship Him. All of this is not possible for a human to bring forth unless he was inspired by Allaah.
6. The laws and sharee'ah that the Qur'an came with, and the morals and conduct that it called for. All of this leads to the betterment of life in this world and in the Hereafter. The perfection of a set of laws that can be applied to any society at any time and place is humanly impossible, and the sharee'ah is the only example of such a set of laws.
7. Scientific facts mentioned in the Qur'an that were unknown at that time.
8. The fact that it has been protected and remained unchanged over such a long period of time, despite the fact that all other religious books have been distorted.
9. The compilation of the Qur'an and the diligence with which all the knowledge essential for its understanding has been preserved (such as the causes of revelation behind specific verses, verses revealed in Makkah/Madeenah, abrogation etc.)
10. The miraculous nature of the various ways and manners of reciting the Qur'an (the ahruf and qira'aat).
11. The ease by which it is memorised, and this is known by experience and observance.This is in contrast to all other religious books, for none of them are memorised like the Qur'an.
12. The deep meanings that are present inside it, and the fact that a reader never tires of reading the Qur'an, no matter how many times he has heard it or read it. This is in contrast to any other book, since a person cannot read it more than a few times without it getting monotonous and mundane.
13. The impact that the Qur'an has on those who hear it and the euphonious quality of the Qur'an.

Taken from An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'an, Yasir Qadhi, with slight modifications.


Each of these can be discussed in much greater detail, and the level of depth would be limited by the knowledge and research of those discussing it. But I hope it is apparent from looking at this list that the subject of the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is one that is very vast and that the previous pages of this thread have done little justice in that regard. Yet the sincere person who researches this issue adequately will soon find ample proof that the Qur'an is the very Words of Allaah (swt).


Regards.

P.S. Here is another link to a brief article by the same person whose lecture has been posted earlier: An Introduction to the Literary & Linguistic Excellence of the Qur’an.

 

[Predator]

There is a verse that says John 14:10 (NIV)

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

You hit the nail on the head .Allah is using Jesus to do the work just like how he used other prophets to do their fair share of miracles . For eg: Moses to split the sea and turn his stick into snakes ,he made solomon understand animals language , he made Jonah escape the whale,he made Abraham resist fire, etc

And your bible proves that

JOHN 11:41-43 "And Jesus lifted up his eyes (towards heaven), and said,
Father, I thank thee that THOU HAST HEARD ME.
"And I know that THOU HEAREST ME ALWAYS: but
because of the people which stand by l said (my supplication
aloud), that THEY MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.
"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
Lazarus, come forth.
"And he that was dead came forth . . ."

Who then gave life back to Lazarus? The answer is "GOD!" For God
heard the prayer of Jesus, as "always!"

You put on the switch , the power comes on and you supply electricity from the power house. similarly , jesus is talking and praying to god and he is getting the power from God



JESUS'OWER NOT HIS OWN:

MATTHEW 28:18
(a) "And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is
GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth."

The power that is given to Jesus belongs to god and he can take it from him and give it to somebody else

MATTHEW 19:16-I7
One came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing
shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
"And Jesus said unto him, WHY CALLEST THOU ME
GOOD? there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD

. .

He refuses you to even call him good , how would he ask you to call him god ?

While you doing that consider this who does Allah forgive sins - is it because you are good, you store up good works, he might be merciful to you - how does he do it

What do you mean how does god forgive ? Allah is most merciful . If you turn from your sins and repent and do good , he will forgive you. It cant be any simpler than than

Your bible supports this as well

Ezekiel 18:21

" But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die."

 

[Uthman]

Let's stay on topic, now.

Remember, this thread is about proving that the Qur'an is the word of Allah.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


If anyone's in doubt, just check this out;


http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/134289880-surah-tariq-tafsir-dream-notes-nouman-ali-khan.html

a chapter of qur'an only a few lines long, yet its explanation can cover volumes.