Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

[CosmicPathos]

If you go back and re-read my post, I didn't say the translations were contradicting each other but rather two of them were contradicting you (and your desperately apologist stance).

To make this clearer, two of the translations (as well as Dawoud and Abdel Haleem to add two more, so that makes four) clearly state fruit, which, no matter what spin you try and put on it, bees don't eat.

do you eat meat? Or do you eat amino acids? No matter how much of an intellectual you try to appear, your arguments are based on feeble understanding of the material world.

 

[reema2009]

To judge the quality of any book you must first read it? I don't know what logic or lack thereof you personally speak of, but really don't enjoy hypotheticals bearing on or connection with the subject at issue. What about the book of the Mormons, what about under-water basket weaving? is there a point to this? The book of the Mormons looks alot like the bible, so I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make?

Yes there is indeed a very big point. Maybe in earlier times people got just 1 message, but nowadays the library is full of religious books. How to know where to start? I honestly don't see how you cannot see the logic of this question, other than that you personally started from Islam and now cannot believe that anybody else could start reading the bhagavad gita and spend a lifetime studying it, and not study the Qu'raan because after all its a 1400 year old book written in Arab.

Anyone person who truly wants to believe has to but ask of God with sincere intent. Abraham (p) was an island, there were no books and everyone in his neck of the woods was an idolater... you must then question how a man with no access to modern technology, computers, books libraries, in a remote part of the world surrounded by ignorance and whose father was the patriarch for creating idols for worship managed to make a covenant with God and be the father of monotheism.

So can I just believe in monotheism then without believing also that I have to smite the necks of polytheists or believing that I have to sacrifice my own son because Allah asks me to? Is this enough sincere intent?

I'd have to say that if you made minimal effort familiarizing yourself with Islamic theology, or at least opened the Quran or even browsed Muhammad's post from the previous page, you'd have encountered verses telling you, that those who were left without a message wouldn't be punished and that their trials will actually start on the day of recompense!

I'd have to say you don't know me very well then, because I have asked this same question time and time again to all kinds of muslims and I get different ansers. Do you honestly think that I haven't studied the Qu'raan or asked questions and I am just talking along a bit? This is mostly what you get, once you have criticism then people blame you for not knowing the theology well. Mostly I get the answer that shirk is unforgivable no matter what, and anyway what would be the purpose of a messenger then anyway if people not being reached by a message are free of charges so to say? But well, if what you are telling is really true then Christians who haven't heard of Muhammed will be safe even though they ask Jesus to save them instead of God / Allah? This would be a huge relief but contrary to what I generally hear from scholars. But you know what I am still studying, maybe I will be allright after all who knows.

Morality doesn't change because of regions, rather people enjoy following whims.. indeed it is a known fact that when you are accustomed to a sin they feel that it is natural. before I gauge this topic with you to any extent, I'd urge you to familiarize yourself with the mere basics of Islam, or at least browse the pages here sufficiently so we are not repeating things already discussed. At the end of the day, you have the free will and choice to follow what you see as correct for you!

Again we have the excuse of not familiarizing with the 'mere basics'. I wish it were so. The more I read here, the less I feel attracted to it. Nice to hear, so if I follow the 'whim' of the day by saying I am a completely non-violent person and I wouldn't be able to despise, hurt or kill anybody for any religion they hold, then I have free will to follow it but I might end up in hell? I don't drink alcohol, smoke, fornicate, lie whatever because I feel like I have been given life by God and it is a great gift, but in hurting, sacrificing or accusing other persons there is my boundary. Nowadays I would be locked up in the mental ward if God told me to go kill my own child and I would set out to do it, but if it is religion backing the story up, then it's all completely logical.

 

[reema2009]

Musaylimah, Muawiyah, whatever. Anyway I cannot possibly make it any clearer that Musaylimah is a definitive straw man, and just like every other pagan Arab who never converts in the end, only serves one purpose: to make Muhammad and Islam look good. Thank you Musaylimah, your purpose is well served.

About this Musaylimah fake prophet, the 'verses' I have read from him are so obviously far far away in style and content from the verses in the Qu'raan that anybody would know they are in no way comparable. They are simply too simple and have a nonsense content. I stumbled upon the site suralikeit.com which eliphaz mentioned. Of course there are sura's on this site with a very obviously christian content, so any muslim who is well versed on this and knows the mere basics of Islam (like me, Skye ;-)) can recognize this is a trap which leads you to shirk. But it would be a nice test to recite a genuine verse and a fake verse to groups of people at random of different ages, both arab and non-arab non familiar with the Qur'aan and then to see if they would recognize the real verse, without translation. We could make a scientific test out of it and see the results. Then we could finally test this claim that the Qu'raan would be so very special, after all if it is to be distinghuished at all from just human creation you would expect to see a difference.

Another interesting claim I heard once is that the verses of the Qu'raan have a calming effect on ill people. Me as a skeptic (should have known before I converted that I had these skeptic voices in my head) already thought well that doesn't mean anything since any rithmically recited things would have a calming effect. With these kind of tests like the above suggested we could actually prove they are right.

 

[CosmicPathos]

About this Musaylimah fake prophet, the 'verses' I have read from him are so obviously far far away in style and content from the verses in the Qu'raan that anybody would know they are in no way comparable. They are simply too simple and have a nonsense content. I stumbled upon the site suralikeit.com which eliphaz mentioned. Of course there are sura's on this site with a very obviously christian content, so any muslim who is well versed on this and knows the mere basics of Islam (like me, Skye ;-)) can recognize this is a trap which leads you to shirk. But it would be a nice test to recite a genuine verse and a fake verse to groups of people at random of different ages, both arab and non-arab non familiar with the Qur'aan and then to see if they would recognize the real verse, without translation. We could make a scientific test out of it and see the results. Then we could finally test this claim that the Qu'raan would be so very special, after all if it is to be distinghuished at all from just human creation you would expect to see a difference.

Another interesting claim I heard once is that the verses of the Qu'raan have a calming effect on ill people. Me as a skeptic (should have known before I converted that I had these skeptic voices in my head) already thought well that doesn't mean anything since any rithmically recited things would have a calming effect. With these kind of tests like the above suggested we could actually prove they are right.

Yay, you can even design a scientific experiment? Though, the only problem with what you have proposed is that its not scientific at all. Including different ages in the group would introduce a subjective factor into the experiment because people of different ages have different abilities of comprehending things .... Quran does not say that even a non-Arab (one does not speak Arabic) can identify it, where did you pull it out from? Quran said that the those who have knowledge of Arabic can recognize the truth. So you want to conduct the experiment on people who do not even understand Arabic and are of varying ages so that they could differentiate between two Arabic texts? Wow, you are REALLY smart and so much for your "scientific" insight.

You know I really dont like people who do bad publicity of science. They pull everything from their backs and call it "scientific" and in doing so damage the credibility of something that is so near and dear to me and others.

 

[Hugo]

Yay, you can even design a scientific experiment? Though, the only problem with what you have proposed is that its not scientific at all. Including different ages in the group would introduce a subjective factor into the experiment because people of different ages have different abilities of comprehending things .... Quran does not say that even a non-Arab (one does not speak Arabic) can identify it, where did you pull it out from? Quran said that the those who have knowledge of Arabic can recognize the truth. So you want to conduct the experiment on people who do not even understand Arabic and are of varying ages so that they could differentiate between two Arabic texts? Wow, you are REALLY smart and so much for your "scientific" insight.

You know I really dont like people who do bad publicity of science. They pull everything from their backs and call it "scientific" and in doing so damage the credibility of something that is so near and dear to me and others.

The idea is to get a representative sample but what you seem to be suggesting would be anything but that as the only people who meet your criteria must be able to speak 7th century Arabic and only they can 'recognise' the truth. In practice, you are asking Muslims so your result is bound to be biased before you even begin - so your kind of science is to decide the result before you start - you are really smart and so much for your 'scientific' insight' and this kind on nonsense is bad publicity for science

Have you ever come across the dictum:

If facts do not conform to theory, they must be disposed of.
Researchers should always state the opinion on which their facts are based.

 

[جوري]

Yes there is indeed a very big point. Maybe in earlier times people got just 1 message, but nowadays the library is full of religious books. How to know where to start? I honestly don't see how you cannot see the logic of this question, other than that you personally started from Islam and now cannot believe that anybody else could start reading the bhagavad gita and spend a lifetime studying it, and not study the Qu'raan because after all its a 1400 year old book written in Arab.

If the topic is of paramount importance to you, it isn't really that difficult to sort through 'all' the books there is really a number of religions anyway. Also, I'd refrain from assuming a starting point for me, just as you can't join a book club and discuss contents of a book you haven't read, don't also assume for me where I have started or didn't start my journey. Employing logic is a gift conferred amongst all rational human beings, I'd keep my wits about me and start there!

So can I just believe in monotheism then without believing also that I have to smite the necks of polytheists or believing that I have to sacrifice my own son because Allah asks me to? Is this enough sincere intent?

Can I assume that because I am a doctor, that I've to chop the limb of a five year old or enucleate the eye of a three year old? that it is good or even barbaric?.. Again, a question of knowledge of the topic and reason would come to question. This isn't a trivia, it is a life time commitment!
so, I'd again ask you to refrain from gauging me in a superficial topic because your mind reasoned that such is unreasonable!

as the man in the vid. says, it is important to regain some perspective!

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX0ovhkgR7s&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1[/MEDIA]
​

I'd have to say you don't know me very well then, because I have asked this same question time and time again to all kinds of muslims and I get different ansers. Do you honestly think that I haven't studied the Qu'raan or asked questions and I am just talking along a bit? This is mostly what you get, once you have criticism then people blame you for not knowing the theology well. Mostly I get the answer that shirk is unforgivable no matter what, and anyway what would be the purpose of a messenger then anyway if people not being reached by a message are free of charges so to say? But well, if what you are telling is really true then Christians who haven't heard of Muhammed will be safe even though they ask Jesus to save them instead of God / Allah? This would be a huge relief but contrary to what I generally hear from scholars. But you know what I am still studying, maybe I will be allright after all who knows.

I can simply tell from the quality or lack thereof of the post.
I don't think you are Muslim at all, but nonetheless, let's merely work with your last comment:

''that I have to sacrifice my own son because Allah asks me to?''

Has Allah swt asked you to sacrifice your son? In fact Abraham (P) himself when he had doubts he asked Allah swt to elucidate for him some truths so that he'd have peace..as is evidenced in the noble Quran (which of course you've read):

2: 260 And, lo, Abraham said: "O my Sustainer! Show me how Thou givest life unto the dead!" Said He: "Hast thou, then, no faith?" [Abraham] answered: "Yea, but [let me see it] so that my heart may be set fully at rest." Said He: "Take, then, four birds and teach them to obey thee;256 then place them separately on every hill [around thee]; then summon them: they will come flying to thee. And know that God is almighty, wise."257

surely, Abraham (p) had something manifest to him that the rest of us don't? The problem is, can you even keep the bare minimum, not sacrificing your kid but sparing us the pedantry? having knowledge and professing that one has knowledge are obviously two separate issues, and we can only learn about you from what you have written. And what you have written so far isn't only disjointed and lacking orderly continuity but has no basic knowledge of Islamic principles, I don't see how you can have even gotten past chapter II to ask said question, let alone be let down by all the Muslims who have engaged you.. I think if I find that more than one person point out a perceived error in my person, that I'd actually take notice, it might not be them, but me?

Again we have the excuse of not familiarizing with the 'mere basics'. I wish it were so. The more I read here, the less I feel attracted to it. Nice to hear, so if I follow the 'whim' of the day by saying I am a completely non-violent person and I wouldn't be able to despise, hurt or kill anybody for any religion they hold, then I have free will to follow it but I might end up in hell? I don't drink alcohol, smoke, fornicate, lie whatever because I feel like I have been given life by God and it is a great gift, but in hurting, sacrificing or accusing other persons there is my boundary. Nowadays I would be locked up in the mental ward if God told me to go kill my own child and I would set out to do it, but if it is religion backing the story up, then it's all completely logical.

see previous reply, and if this religion isn't for you, then feel free not to subscribe to it!

2: 256 THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.249 Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil250 and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.


surprisingly, also in the second chapter.. by the way I don't need to know about your list of accolades, that is between you and your creator!

all the best

 

[CosmicPathos]

The idea is to get a representative sample but what you seem to be suggesting would be anything but that as the only people who meet your criteria must be able to speak 7th century Arabic and only they can 'recognise' the truth. In practice, you are asking Muslims so your result is bound to be biased before you even begin - so your kind of science is to decide the result before you start - you are really smart and so much for your 'scientific' insight' and this kind on nonsense is bad publicity for science

Have you ever come across the dictum:

If facts do not conform to theory, they must be disposed of.
Researchers should always state the opinion on which their facts are based.

I did not state that only Muslims would be included in the sample. Why did you assume so? because you found that would be the only way to discredit the validity of my claim? She wants to include non-Arabs, I am assuming those laymen non-arabs who do not even understand classical Arabic, to study if people can differentiate between Quran and other Arabic man-made mimicry. It is like asking a blind person to differentiate between blue and red lights. Now if you call that "insight" before designing this experiment, then I can only say .... W.O.W, what an unbiased sampling!

I have not really decided anything before starting this. Actually, a sort of "decision" before starting an experiment is necessary in the form of hypothesis. Hypothesis is not a final decision but a decision which is supposed and is subsequently tested.

 

[جوري]

I did not state that only Muslims would be included in the sample. Why did you assume so? because you found that would be the only way to discredit the validity of my claim? She wants to include non-Arabs, I am assuming those laymen non-arabs who do not even understand classical Arabic, to study if people can differentiate between Quran and other Arabic man-made mimicry. It is like asking a blind person to differentiate between blue and red lights. Now if you call that "insight" before designing this experiment, then I can only say .... W.O.W, what an unbiased sampling!

if the matter were merely the linguistics of what he alleges to be '7th' c Arabic, I don't think Islam would have been as successful as all that:

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Orange
Dubai, UAE Reply »
|Report Abuse |Judge it! |#2 Feb 3, 2008
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[Hugo]

the miracle of the bee is:

In the 16th chapter the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food...

I have not seen an English translation which make clear that the Bee mentioned in the Qu'ran is female. As far as I can make out Millers's argument rests on the notion on Grammatical Gender in language and in this case Arabic. Many languages have gender as part of the grammar and word structure but it has nothing at all to do with sex. In English grammatical gender is fortunately missing but in German (has three genders) we see it in use and usually one can work out the gender of a words by looking at word endings. However, one notes that:

A Bee = die Biene has grammatical gender feminine
A Zebra = das Zebra has grammatical gender neuter
A Tiger = der Tiger has grammatical gender masculine
A Girl = das Madchen so has the gender neuter
A Woman = Die Frau so has gender feminine

It follows that if you were say translating 'die Biene' into English is become 'the Bee', so if you wanted to be specific you have to say "die weibliche Biene" then it is translated into 'the female Bee'. It is logical then than IF any translator is worth his salt he could ONLY make the translation 'female Bee' if is was specifically written as female in Arabic and not because of its grammatical gender.

Note. All Arabic nouns carry grammatical gender. For living creatures, grammatical gender corresponds to biological gender, e.g. (رجل) “man” is masculine, while (امرأة) “woman” is feminine. Most animal names have only one gender; either masculine or feminine regardless of its biological gender. However, there are also numerous animals that have two versions of their names, one for each gender; albeit the female version are not always used. Determining which animals have two versions of their names for each gender is a horrendous task in Arabic, because there much arbitrariness and vagueness in usage but the Bee does not seem to be one of them. Indeed if you search discussion boards like this one you will easily see that it is not a done deal and only the proponents of the Miracle of the Bee think it is.

 

[جوري]

I have not seen an English translation which make clear that the Bee mentioned in the Qu'ran is female. As far as I can make out Millers's argument rests on the notion on Grammatical Gender in language and in this case Arabic. Many languages have gender as part of the grammar and word structure but it has nothing at all to do with sex. In English grammatical gender is fortunately missing but in German (has three genders) we see it in use and usually one can work out the gender of a words by looking at word endings. However, one notes that:

A Bee = die Biene has grammatical gender feminine
A Zebra = das Zebra has grammatical gender neuter
A Tiger = der Tiger has grammatical gender masculine
A Girl = das Madchen so has the gender neuter
A Woman = Die Frau so has gender feminine

It follows that if you were say translating 'die Biene' into English is become 'the Bee', so if you wanted to be specific you have to say "die weibliche Biene" then it is translated into 'the female Bee'. It is logical then than IF any translator is worth his salt he could ONLY make the translation 'female Bee' if is was specifically written as female in Arabic and not because of its grammatical gender.

Note. All Arabic nouns carry grammatical gender. For living creatures, grammatical gender corresponds to biological gender, e.g. (رجل) “man” is masculine, while (امرأة) “woman” is feminine. Most animal names have only one gender; either masculine or feminine regardless of its biological gender. However, there are also numerous animals that have two versions of their names, one for each gender; albeit the female version are not always used. Determining which animals have two versions of their names for each gender is a horrendous task in Arabic, because there much arbitrariness and vagueness in usage but the Bee does not seem to be one of them. Indeed if you search discussion boards like this one you will easily see that it is not a done deal and only the proponents of the Miracle of the Bee think it is.

I have no idea what this post is about or trying to prove or is about?
I have seen you browse this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/arabic/134268225-female-honey-bee-arabic-word-10.html

and funny enough not long enough to formulate an educated opinion since you are done writing this drivel seven mins. ago, I can tell you have expended no effort whatsoever familiarizing yourself with grammar anymore than you have taken the time to get past the preface in books recommended you, it is no matter- as I have already figured out early on your MO.



if you wish to continue a grammatical topic, you may complete it there in the link already in existence.
and all the grammar that is needed to cover this topic is covered there!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

I did not state that only Muslims would be included in the sample. Why did you assume so? because you found that would be the only way to discredit the validity of my claim? She wants to include non-Arabs, I am assuming those laymen non-arabs who do not even understand classical Arabic, to study if people can differentiate between Quran and other Arabic man-made mimicry. It is like asking a blind person to differentiate between blue and red lights. Now if you call that "insight" before designing this experiment, then I can only say .... W.O.W, what an unbiased sampling!

I have not really decided anything before starting this. Actually, a sort of "decision" before starting an experiment is necessary in the form of hypothesis. Hypothesis is not a final decision but a decision which is supposed and is subsequently tested.

I was not discrediting anything only pointing out that you were far too vague to make any scientific sense and by implication there can be few people who speak 7th century Arabic but are not Muslim.

I would be interested to see your hypothesis because such things are couched in the negative - so it would not be to show that the Qu'ran is special in some way but to show that it is not - I don't know of course but can you bring yourself to do your utmost, to be as Popper used to say, almost brutal in your attempt to show that the Qu'ran is not special and if it stands up to that brutality then you can have some confidence that it is special - can you even contemplate this scenario - to go looking for faults?

 

[جوري]

Anyone who is Muslim is capable of speaking this '7th' c. Arabic, since prayer is compulsory on all Muslims and prayers are said in Arabic 17 recitations a day from China to the U.S.
You don't get to cast aside a

• Replicate the Qur’ans literary form
• Match the unique linguistic genre of the Qur’an
• Select and arrange words like that of the Qur’an
• Select and arrange particles like that of the Qur’an
• Match the Qur’ans phonetic superiority
• Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices
• Match the level of informativity
• Equal the Qur’ans conciseness and flexibility

For further information, I would suggest you read some of the articles written on this topic which I've linked to earlier.

H A R Gibb. states:“As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, havingneither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming theinimitability not only of its contents but also of its style….. and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in whichall the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.”

From Muhammad's post

just because you decided, you are unable to handle it to a level! .
This reminds me of the time when I brought you the status of Hagar as the Pharaohs' daughter from the Jewish encyclopedia, yet you contended it wasn't good enough and wanted another source!

Not liking a contrary contention doesn't in and of itself equal to an admissible refutation!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

I have no idea what this post is about or trying to prove or is about? I have seen you browse this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/arabic/134268225-female-honey-bee-arabic-word-10.html

and funny enough not long enough to formulate an educated opinion since you are done writing this drivel seven mins. ago, I can tell you have expended no effort whatsoever familiarizing yourself with grammar anymore than you have taken the time to get past the preface in books recommended you, it is no matter- as I have already figured out early on your MO.

if you wish to continue a grammatical topic, you may complete it there in the link already in existence. and all the grammar that is needed to cover this topic is covered there!

all the best

Because it took me a few mins to post does not mean it took me a few mins to construct - have you ever heard of off line working and preparation? In fact the timings will show that you made a comment within seconds of me making the post so I think everyone can see who is an honest broker here.

 

[جوري]

Because it took me a few mins to post does not mean it took me a few mins to construct - have you ever heard of off line working and preparation? In fact the timings will show that you made a comment within seconds of me making the post so I think everyone can see who is an honest broker here.

I knew when you initially browsed the other post as there is a section on line that shows how long you've been browsing a particular post, and when I was done refreshing my memory of all that was written back and forth on that thread, your post was already posted a good 7~8 mins.. I know logic is not your strong suit, but it tells me that you have expended no more than a min. or two, on that particular thread familiarizing yourself with Arabic grammar or in fact not at all!
So it doesn't really matter how long it took you to compose an uneducated post.. it is easy to pump them out like cheap porn and you actually often do, not only do you repeat yourself but you don't bother with replies that folks labor to write you in answer yo your queries all together..
Naturally how much time do you want me to expend in reply to an ill-thought paragraph? it takes exactly as much time to reply as it took you to compose.

all the best

 

[Hugo]

Anyone who is Muslim is capable of speaking this '7th' c. Arabic, since prayer is compulsory on all Muslims and prayers are said in Arabic 17 recitations a day from China to the U.S.

Fine, then deal with my post regarding the Bee and show that what I have said is wrong. Do I really have to be pedantic and say that in context 'speak' means to do it with understanding and you know as well as I do how many Muslim can stretch to that.

just because you decided, you are unable to handle it to a level! .
This reminds me of the time when I brought you the status of Hagar as the Pharaohs' daughter from the Jewish encyclopedia, yet you contended it wasn't good enough and wanted another source!

Funny, how you forget that the same Jewish Encyclopaedia writes at length about the massacre of 600 men by Prophet Mohammed but then cherry picking is the only thing you do.

 

[جوري]

Funny, how you forget that the same Jewish Encyclopaedia writes at length about the massacre of 600 men by Prophet Mohammed but then cherry picking is the only thing you do.

I see no relation of one to the other? When their sources agree with ours it is fine, when they take Islamic sources primary on the scene and put a spin on them, it isn't fine, least of which when they'd like to deny their presence in the region all together, save to establish a point of brutality.
You can't really have it both ways can you? deny Abraham being in bekka because it would have very undesirable implications but at the same time allege that Jews existed in that region only to show the brutality of Muslims? If none of them survived or were forced into conversion, I don't really see how their account could vary so much from the initial one..

but this isn't a topic on hagar or the Jews of Arabia.. so let's not meander this topic any further...



all the best

 

[reema2009]

Yay, you can even design a scientific experiment? Though, the only problem with what you have proposed is that its not scientific at all. Including different ages in the group would introduce a subjective factor into the experiment because people of different ages have different abilities of comprehending things .... Quran does not say that even a non-Arab (one does not speak Arabic) can identify it, where did you pull it out from? Quran said that the those who have knowledge of Arabic can recognize the truth. So you want to conduct the experiment on people who do not even understand Arabic and are of varying ages so that they could differentiate between two Arabic texts? Wow, you are REALLY smart and so much for your "scientific" insight.

You know I really dont like people who do bad publicity of science. They pull everything from their backs and call it "scientific" and in doing so damage the credibility of something that is so near and dear to me and others.

So now you are admitting it yourself. Quran does not say that even a non arab can identify it. This is exactly my point. Please explain then how a person who does not speak Arab is supposed to come to the conclusion it is the exact word of God. There must be something special to it that touches everybody's heart since it was the last universal final message to all mankind not just arabs? How else is it to be proven if not from all kinds of arab people who are already biased because they would never doubt it is?

Since I graduated cum laude at university in logics and experimental linguistics I do think I have some insights in science. I don't mean to mess all kinds of groups up. I meant to include two groups, I didn’t mean to include all kinds of mixed groups, but to make the experiment statistically sound. Don’t worry, I do know about statistics and excluding as many factors as possible, like age, social background etc. So I would want to have two groups of the same age and other factors, and expose them one group to the Qu’raan and the other one to the fake verses. If the Qu’raan really claims to be so very special there must be some difference, right? Especially with arabs who master the language.

 

[Eliphaz]

Yes there is indeed a very big point. Maybe in earlier times people got just 1 message, but nowadays the library is full of religious books. How to know where to start? I honestly don't see how you cannot see the logic of this question, other than that you personally started from Islam and now cannot believe that anybody else could start reading the bhagavad gita and spend a lifetime studying it, and not study the Qu'raan because after all its a 1400 year old book written in Arab.

Precisely. Most people are in the religion they are because they are born into it, around eleven out of twelve people fall in this category. This something many born Muslims cannot understand. To them, the Qur'an is "it", and they wonder why the rest of the world at large doesn't see this "miracle".

Again we have the excuse of not familiarizing with the 'mere basics'. I wish it were so. The more I read here, the less I feel attracted to it. Nice to hear, so if I follow the 'whim' of the day by saying I am a completely non-violent person and I wouldn't be able to despise, hurt or kill anybody for any religion they hold, then I have free will to follow it but I might end up in hell? I don't drink alcohol, smoke, fornicate, lie whatever because I feel like I have been given life by God and it is a great gift, but in hurting, sacrificing or accusing other persons there is my boundary. Nowadays I would be locked up in the mental ward if God told me to go kill my own child and I would set out to do it, but if it is religion backing the story up, then it's all completely logical.

Couldn't have said it better.

About this Musaylimah fake prophet, the 'verses' I have read from him are so obviously far far away in style and content from the verses in the Qu'raan that anybody would know they are in no way comparable. They are simply too simple and have a nonsense content. I stumbled upon the site suralikeit.com which eliphaz mentioned. Of course there are sura's on this site with a very obviously christian content, so any muslim who is well versed on this and knows the mere basics of Islam (like me, Skye ;-)) can recognize this is a trap which leads you to shirk.

Yes, but the fake verses I have linked to still attest that God is One which, at the end of the day, is not shirk. Hopefully any open-minded Muslim (particularly those who are Arabic speaking, being the most "qualified" for the job) should at least consider comparing them to the Qur'anic verses in terms of linguistic style and content. This is something I have unfortunately seen no comment on by any of the Muslim brothers and sisters. It seems the brothers and sisters want something to replace the Qur'an fully before they can depart from it, whereas the Qur'an itself merely asks for a single "surah like it", which I have provided.

But it would be a nice test to recite a genuine verse and a fake verse to groups of people at random of different ages, both arab and non-arab non familiar with the Qur'aan and then to see if they would recognize the real verse, without translation. We could make a scientific test out of it and see the results. Then we could finally test this claim that the Qu'raan would be so very special, after all if it is to be distinghuished at all from just human creation you would expect to see a difference.

Yes, this sounds like a wonderful idea. It is so unfortunate that one can already imagine the violent protests, flaming effigies and the death threats that it makes one wonder whether it would really be worth it. I think it would.

 

[جوري]

So now you are admitting it yourself. Quran does not say that even a non arab can identify it. This is exactly my point. Please explain then how a person who does not speak Arab is supposed to come to the conclusion it is the exact word of God. There must be something special to it that touches everybody's heart since it was the last universal final message to all mankind not just arabs? How else is it to be proven if not from all kinds of arab people who are already biased because they would never doubt it is?

How does it feel then to know that in spite of its linguistic marvels that Muslims who speak arabic only makeup about 20% of the Muslim population?
and is the fastest growing religion, soon to be if not actually the number one in the world?!
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL3068682420080330

see previous page for a more detailed account!

Since I graduated cum laude at university in logics and experimental linguistics I do think I have some insights in science. I don't mean to mess all kinds of groups up. I meant to include two groups, I didn’t mean to include all kinds of mixed groups, but to make the experiment statistically sound. Don’t worry, I do know about statistics and excluding as many factors as possible, like age, social background etc. So I would want to have two groups of the same age and other factors, and expose them one group to the Qu’raan and the other one to the fake verses. If the Qu’raan really claims to be so very special there must be some difference, right? Especially with arabs who master the language.

How does listing your laurelses help you here? would you like an applause filled ceremonial procession based entirely on blind trust of your word which as I have demonstrated on the previous page is discrepant to the facts? I think you'd have been better off as an unsettled spectator as I find it grievous indeed to have allegedly reached such a status and bring nothing exceptional to the table save the usual superficial quips to the topic!

You do that though, run a 'random double blind' study, if you know a 'thing or two' of statistics and epidemiology, then it should be clear that is the best you can offer, and then come back to us with your results when you are published!

until then, all the best

 

[Chuck]

Oh dear God, discussion is still going on on this thread.

*sings*

Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds . ..
Never ending story
never ending story
never ending story . . .