How the Bible and the Quran seriously view women

[Trumble]

Surely the important issue here is not so much what the Qur'an and Bible say, but how that is interpreted and, particularly in the case of the vast majority of Christians, ignored, in the modern world? I'd point out in the interests of balance that my own religion isn't entirely free of sexism (or what might be interpreted as sexism) either, particularly in a historical context.

Such judgements can be very hard to make, particularly for 'outsiders', as although religion is often invoked as the reason for alleged sexual discrimination other cultural forces are usually as, if not more, significant.

 

[glo]

The Wife's Submission To Her Husband According To The New Testament

The Bible teaches that a husband should have authority over his wife...

Colossians 3:18

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Peter 3:1

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,


However, what kind of submission are we talking about here?...

1 Peter 3:5-6

5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

So aren't the women of today also supposed to follow this example and call their husbands their master?


It is good that the New Testament teaches that a wife should obey her husband but you can kind of get the impression that it takes it a little bit too far...

Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

The wife should submit to their husbands in EVERYTHING? Isn't that a little bit too extreme?

You can see a similar problem here.

You need to read the full instruction.
Ephesians 5:25-28 continues:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Equally 1 Peter 3:7 continues with:

Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

The way I read these instructions to husbands and wives is that they complement each other to form the perfect relationship within marriage:
The wife is willing to listen to her husband, and the husband is willing to love his wife and consider her needs.

Speaking generally, both the Qu'ran and the Bible were written in a time and culture which was strongly patriarchal - so no wonder this attitude is sometimes reflected in scripture.

I don't think many people - Muslims or Christians - would suggest that a wife should obey her husband, even if he demands her to do something wrong or something that is against God's instructions. At least I hope not ...!

 

[glo]

Following on from my previous post, I found this additional information:

Question: "Does a wife have to submit to her husband?"

Answer: Submission is a very important issue in relation to marriage. Even before sin entered the world, there was still the principle of headship (1 Timothy 2:13). Adam was created first, and Eve was created to be a "helper" for Adam (Genesis 2:18-20). At the same time, since there was no sin, there was no authority for man to obey except God’s authority. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin entered the world, and then authority was needed. Therefore, God established the authority needed to enforce the laws of the land and also to provide us with the protection we need. First, we need to submit to God, which is the only way we can truly obey Him (James 1:21; 4:7). In 1 Corinthians 11:2-3, we find that the husband is to submit to Christ as Christ did to God. Then the verse says that the wife should follow his example and submit to her husband.

Submission is a natural response to loving leadership. When a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church (Ephesians 5:25-33), then submission is a natural response from a wife to her husband. The Greek word translated “submit,” hupotasso, is the continuing form of the verb. This means that submitting to God, the government, or a husband is not a one-time act. It is a continual attitude, which becomes a pattern of behavior. The submission talked about in Ephesians 5 is not a one-sided subjection of a believer to a selfish, domineering person. Biblical submission is designed to be between two Spirit-filled believers who are mutually yielded to each other and to God. Submission is a two-way street. Submission is a position of honor and completeness. When a wife is loved as the church is loved by Christ, submission is not difficult. Ephesians 5:24 says, “Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.” This verse is saying that the wife is to submit to her husband in everything that is right and lawful. Therefore, the wife is under no obligation to disobey the law or God in the name of submission.

Matthew Henry wrote: “The woman was made out of Adam’s side. She was not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be loved.” Believers are to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (Ephesians 5:21). In context, everything in Ephesians 5:19-33 is a result of being filled with the Spirit. Spirit-filled believers are to be worshipful (5:19), thankful (5:20), and submissive (5:21). Paul then follows his line of thought on Spirit-filled living and applies it to husbands and wives in verses 22-33. A wife should submit to her husband, not because women are inferior, but because that is how God designed the marital relationship to function. Submission is not a wife’s being a “doormat” for her husband. Rather, with the help of the Holy Spirit, a wife submits to her husband, and a husband sacrificially loves his wife.

http://www.gotquestions.org/wives-submit.html

 

[Uthman]

Hi glo,

I don't think many people - Muslims or Christians - would suggest that a wife should obey her husband, even if he demands her to do something wrong or something that is against God's instructions. At least I hope not ...!

That's true. Prophet Muhammad saws made it abundantly clear when he said:

“There is no obedience [to any creation] in disobedience to Allah.” [Reported by Bukhari and Muslim]
​

Regards

 

[جوري]

Another reason why christians never practice Christianity .. for after 'the' god immolates a woman has to keep her mouth shut and is akin to an animal for she is soulless:


"Jesus said that the sole reason God created women in the first place was to provide company and service to men (1 Corinthians 11:9), God determined that men would be lonely living alone, so he created women purely to keep men company and serve their needs (Genesis 2:18-22). Women are therefore completely subordinate to men (1 Corinthians 11:3). It stands to reason, though, that once men enter the Kingdom of Heaven, they will be one with God, and will no longer be lonely and in need of mortal companionship. Thus, the reason behind having women will no longer exist. Women, like the members of the animal kingdom, will fall by the wayside."

"once men reunite with their maker, they will no longer be burdened with the care of women. After all, women were inferior creations from the start. Women are fond of self-indulgence (Isaiah 32:9-11). They are silly and easily led into error (2 Timothy 3:6). They are subtle and deceitful (Proverbs 7:10; Ecclesiastes 7:26). They are zealous in promoting superstition and idolatry (Jeremiah 7:18; Ezekiel 13:17, 23). And they are active in instigating to iniquity (Numbers 31:15-16; 1 Kings 21:25; Nehemiah 13:26). It was the inherent weakness of women that led them to be deceived by Satan (Genesis 3:1-6; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:14). Consequently, women were cursed from the start (Genesis 3:16). There is simply no room in heaven for such flawed and inadequate beings."

I really predict that Christianity will become completely obsolete within the next couple of hundred years or be thought of as an astonishing relic of dying gods and soulless women ...

 

[barney]

To define sexism
: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism.

I only have to open the bible at any page to find examples of sexism. It's clearly the work of either fallible and ignorant bronze age men writing the first thing that is politically expedient or that of a malevolent sexist deity.

Its just a product of its time. Its not meant to be for all time , at least thats what christians say these days, now that they have lost the power to torture and kill people into silence!

I have a copy here of Red Storm Rising, by Tom Clancy. A product of the sexist 1980's. A novel about WW3. I'll flip it open.
OK, Page 441:Some US marines have rescued a young blond haired girl from the evil Russians. The Lt wraps his field jacket around her and covers her blond hair from sight.(So the russians cant see shes a woman....not because her hairs indecent!)
Thus , by picking a random book at a random page, I find something thats got sexism ingrained into its pores.Red Storm Rising though isnt an instruction manual for life, or even a guide for life.


66:5 It may happen that his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you, submissive (to Allah), believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, widows and maids.

4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

24:6 As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

Now I know there will follow much explainations of such verses, and theres dozens to "explain", but Isn't it just more intellectually honest to say.
"Yes. These verses to modern thought ARE sexist. But god knows best, and we cant argue against them, so its better just to accept them"?

 

[YusufNoor]

To define sexism
: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism.

I only have to open the bible at any page to find examples of sexism. It's clearly the work of either fallible and ignorant bronze age men writing the first thing that is politically expedient or that of a malevolent sexist deity.

Its just a product of its time. Its not meant to be for all time , at least thats what christians say these days, now that they have lost the power to torture and kill people into silence!

I have a copy here of Red Storm Rising, by Tom Clancy. A product of the sexist 1980's. A novel about WW3. I'll flip it open.
OK, Page 441:Some US marines have rescued a young blond haired girl from the evil Russians. The Lt wraps his field jacket around her and covers her blond hair from sight.(So the russians cant see shes a woman....not because her hairs indecent!)
Thus , by picking a random book at a random page, I find something thats got sexism ingrained into its pores.Red Storm Rising though isnt an instruction manual for life, or even a guide for life.


66:5 It may happen that his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you, submissive (to Allah), believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, widows and maids.

this one is easy. the woman of Makkah started acting like the women of Madinah. they were getting "lippy" with their husbands AND, as a result or recent conquests, wealth was starting to flow into Madinah. the wives of the Prophet, PBUH, were demanding more "dunya" from him. Umar ibn al Khataab's daughter was one of the Prophet's wives. he heard of the backtalk and he rushed to his daughter to see if she was mistreating the Prophet verbally. she said that she was ans so what? from a personal point of view, Umar reminded his daughter that she wasn't nearly as pretty as Aisha, nor was she loved as much as she was. imar heard the other wives being all noisy and careless and reprimanded them all saying: It may happen that his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you, submissive (to Allah), believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, widows and maids. for not the first time, Qur'an was revealed EXACTLY as Umar commented. umar status in regard to revelation is that of nearly being or being just short of a Prophet. in fact, Rasulullah commented that if there were to be a Prophet after him, it would have been Umar. as for being believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, that is what the men should be as well. the widows and maids comment just refers to the fact that only 1 of Rasulullahs wives was a virgin at marriage. the purpose of allowing more than 1 wife is so that ALL woman can have a husband, especially widows and older maidens and NOT so that some guy gets to wed 4 nublie little teenagers because he can't keep his johnson in his pants. YES, it is "sexist," but pleas explain how society would work with and iota of sexism.

4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken,

don't pray when drunk. alcohol was later prohibited.

till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed.

maybe if you were drunk, you played with the ladies. best to make wusul before praying. usually we make wuduu before prayer, if you have sex, you must bathe [make wusul]

And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith).

if you have sex, either man or woman, you must make wusul before praying, wusul involves water, it's a bath. if you have no water, you can make tayyamun, which is dome using dirt, sand or dust.

Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

24:6 As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

in the case of infidelity, caught by the spouse, the spouse may testify 4 times against the spouse, as their are no 4 witnesses. at the 4th "witness", the spouse must ask Allah to curse them if they are lying. IF you reply 4 times against 4 times [man or woman], there is no punishment, but the marriage is over and you can never marry that person again.

Now I know there will follow much explanations of such verses, and theres dozens to "explain", but Isn't it just more intellectually honest to say.
"Yes. These verses to modern thought ARE sexist. But god knows best, and we cant argue against them, so its better just to accept them"?

you don't argue against them, you learn why they make sense.

morning Barney,

the plain fact that, according to Islam, men and women have different roles is something that you can at anyplace and anytime use YOUR definition of sexist. somehow, Shaytan has convinced you it is a bad thing for the sexes to have different roles. have you been trying to figure out how to biologically make men and women the same? i mean, come on, from your point of view, men out to have their own babies as well, eh?

Yup, its grossly sexist for a man to "have to support " women. Sexism works both ways.
For men to be "responsible for women" is sexist.

consider that and how would society work with out any "sexism"? iirc, you have duaghters? anyway, the ONLY way for their to be no sexism, in your view, would be that if i sleep with a woman [ANY woman, because it would be sexist to say i can't sleep with any woman] and she gets pregnant, then you feel that is just her tough luck and she should have to raise any kids she might have by herself and i have NO responsibility WHATSOEVER! i mean after all, it's her fault that she is a woman, right? to make me "have to support" her [as a woman] is just plain sexist, and it just "sucks to be her" that she can get pregnant at all.

kind of silly, don't you think?

:wa:

 

[barney]

morning Barney,

the plain fact that, according to Islam, men and women have different roles is something that you can at anyplace and anytime use YOUR definition of sexist. somehow, Shaytan has convinced you it is a bad thing for the sexes to have different roles. have you been trying to figure out how to biologically make men and women the same? i mean, come on, from your point of view, men out to have their own babies as well, eh?



consider that and how would society work with out any "sexism"? iirc, you have duaghters? anyway, the ONLY way for their to be no sexism, in your view, would be that if i sleep with a woman [ANY woman, because it would be sexist to say i can't sleep with any woman] and she gets pregnant, then you feel that is just her tough luck and she should have to raise any kids she might have by herself and i have NO responsibility WHATSOEVER! i mean after all, it's her fault that she is a woman, right? to make me "have to support" her [as a woman] is just plain sexist, and it just "sucks to be her" that she can get pregnant at all.

kind of silly, don't you think?

:wa:

Reminds me of the part of Monty Pythons "The life of Brian" where the Jewish terrorist group vote for Ron, a male member, to have the Right to get pregnant even if, through no fault of his own, he couldnt Biologically"!

Women have traditionally held different roles. The key here is TRADITIONALLY.
There are now Woman fighter pilots in the RAF, Russia had them back in the 40's. Women can be and are astronauts. They should be paid as a man, tried as a man, given the same RIGHTS as a man.

The inclusion of a womb does not suddely make her veiw worth less, nor does it give a man headship over his wife, as Christians are taught. It dosnt mean that women should cover their faces in order for men to withold their uncontrollable urge to rape anything not covered. Thats not their responsibility.
If they feel thats what they want to do, then great. If they want to wear a top hat and a tutu in the supermarket, then they have that right.
The right to Drive a car (*cough-Saudi*-cough), the right not to be treated as a second class citizen under the sexist propaganda of, "No Job for a Woman", "Protecting and cherishing a precious flower" or any form of wording which ends in a man under any circumstances to have a divine given right to beat, however lightly , with toothbrushes and gentle taps on the shoulder, (as endless scholars tell us) "their" woman. This by itself is the logical progression of a dark ages morality adapting as best it can. Most learned scholars now wax lyrical about the lightness of the beating , the last resort of it all.

Personally, I think very few beatings happen like that. Ive seen footage of women being beaten,and killed, and I can see western women being abused in the west by callous moronic men, (probably deserving it for going naked all day every day save for painting themselves with wanton signs). But this is prescribed against in law. Not sanctioned in law!

I havnt seen any muslim men, at the very last resources of their patience, after banishing their wife from the bed, and admonishing her, finally cracking, getting a toothbrush and chasing her around the garden tapping her lightly on the shoulder screaming "Youve Really Done it NOW! Look what you MADE me do!!! Be tapped lightly as a last resort into correct behaviour!"

 

[Predator]

Reminds me of the part of Monty Pythons "The life of Brian" where the Jewish terrorist group vote for Ron, a male member, to have the Right to get pregnant even if, through no fault of his own, he couldnt Biologically"!

Women have traditionally held different roles. The key here is TRADITIONALLY.
There are now Woman fighter pilots in the RAF, Russia had them back in the 40's. Women can be and are astronauts. They should be paid as a man, tried as a man, given the same RIGHTS as a man.

The inclusion of a womb does not suddely make her veiw worth less, nor does it give a man headship over his wife, as Christians are taught. It dosnt mean that women should cover their faces in order for men to withold their uncontrollable urge to rape anything not covered. Thats not their responsibility.
If they feel thats what they want to do, then great. If they want to wear a top hat and a tutu in the supermarket, then they have that right.
The right to Drive a car (*cough-Saudi*-cough), the right not to be treated as a second class citizen under the sexist propaganda of, "No Job for a Woman", "Protecting and cherishing a precious flower" or any form of wording which ends in a man under any circumstances to have a divine given right to beat, however lightly , with toothbrushes and gentle taps on the shoulder, (as endless scholars tell us) "their" woman. This by itself is the logical progression of a dark ages morality adapting as best it can. Most learned scholars now wax lyrical about the lightness of the beating , the last resort of it all.

Personally, I think very few beatings happen like that. Ive seen footage of women being beaten,and killed, and I can see western women being abused in the west by callous moronic men, (probably deserving it for going naked all day every day save for painting themselves with wanton signs). But this is prescribed against in law. Not sanctioned in law!

I havnt seen any muslim men, at the very last resources of their patience, after banishing their wife from the bed, and admonishing her, finally cracking, getting a toothbrush and chasing her around the garden tapping her lightly on the shoulder screaming "Youve Really Done it NOW! Look what you MADE me do!!! Be tapped lightly as a last resort into correct behaviour!"

Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the whole body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a skirt or a mini. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijab prevents the women from being molested.


Under the Islamic Shariah a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, and barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why the double standards?



USA has one of the highest rates of rape

United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape of any country in the world. According to an FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the whole body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes.
Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breath easier. Hijab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity


Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women
Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are employed as mere tools at the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

 

[Uthman]

The off-topic discussion about capital punishment has been moved to this thread.

 

[Salahudeen]

hmm does anyone know what the punishment is for rape according to the bible?

 

[Predator]

hmm does anyone know what the punishment is for rape according to the bible?

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"

Although this Verse from the Bible only talks about virgins, but its the only verse in the entire Bible that talks about raping single women. Not to be biased or anything, but the Bible seems to have quite weird things in it that are quite irrational and quite ridiculous. Deuteronomy 22:28 forces the raped woman to marry her rapist.
Why in the world would any raped female victim want to be in the same town, not the same bedroom !! with her rapist?. This implies that the Bible seems to promote raping of single women:

"But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:25)"

This is quite an interesting verse. We see in Deuteronomy 22:28 that if a man rapes a single woman then she will be forced to be his wife, while if a man rapes a married woman or a woman who is spoken for, in Deuteronomy 22:25, then he shall be put to death.

 

[Predator]

The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) has given clear instructions about the behaviour of the Muslim army. He observed:

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, o a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)

So great is the respect for humanly feelings in Islam that even the wanton destruction of enemy's crops or property is strictly forbidden. The righteous Caliphs followed closely the teachings of Allah and those of His Apostle in letter and spirit the celebrated address which the first Caliph Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) gave to his army while sending her on the expedition to the Syrian borders is permeated with the noble spirit with which the war in Islam is permitted. He said:


Whereas in the Bible



Numbers 31:17-18

Now therefore KILL every male among the little ones, and
KILL every woman (female) that hath known man by lying
(having sex) with him.But keep ALIVE for yourselves all the GIRLS and all the
women who are VIRGINS."

There was no saliva test for virginity , the only way for those Jewish soldiers to find out whether a woman was a virgin to rape and verify it himself


31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

31:40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was thirty and two persons.

What is God gonna do with 32 raped and ravished women

In a Book of God , God giving instruction that you verify whether the women is a virgin or not. God uttering this filth and dirt , kill every little child male or female . Only young girls you must keep and they too should not know a man intimately



Noble Quran Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..."

In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty honors all the innocent souls that He created. Killing any innocent soul is so hated by Allah Almighty that He considers it as a crime against all of Mankind. According to the bible however in below verse in Hosea 13:16 , innocent pregnant women and unborn babies have to be killed to fullfill Gods punishment.


Gods Punishment in the Bible: Pregnant Women will be ripped open!

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Ezekiel 23:47(King James Version)

47: And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

 

[AlbanianMuslim]

What an absurd accusation to be making. Human nature disrespects and degrades women. Women degrade women. Men degrade women.
ISLAM respects, elevates and dignifies women. Period.

 

[barney]

You need to read the full instruction.
Ephesians 5:25-28 continues:


Equally 1 Peter 3:7 continues with:


The way I read these instructions to husbands and wives is that they complement each other to form the perfect relationship within marriage:
The wife is willing to listen to her husband, and the husband is willing to love his wife and consider her needs.

Speaking generally, both the Qu'ran and the Bible were written in a time and culture which was strongly patriarchal - so no wonder this attitude is sometimes reflected in scripture.

I don't think many people - Muslims or Christians - would suggest that a wife should obey her husband, even if he demands her to do something wrong or something that is against God's instructions. At least I hope not ...!

Hey Glo

I dont think it's a matter of roles. People are people and a relationship is richer if there is equal respect. Thats impossible to acheive in reality, but does that mean it shouldnt be a goal?

Restricting women or men to certain roles based on history is an awful concept. It simply stagnates the species. Even back in the Bronze age women could have had the equality they have today in secular societies. it is purely a matter of the will of the people.

Islam made womens conditions somewhat better than they had been before. It staggers the beleif in humanity that it took till the 1900's to bring in the right to vote or equal pay or women in buisnesses.
Why did it take so long? Well because societies are almost exclusivly patriarchal. Judeism has its Patriarchs in Abraham, Moses and all. Christianity is patriarchal, but with some nods to Mary in catholicism, John Frumism isnt Jane frumism, Mormonism wasnt founded by Joanne Smith.

It's my assertion that the bigoted sexist suppressive attitudes of Man-kind are responsible for such gems as Pauls commands to cover the head and not to speak in church. We can wash these instructions endlessly till they conform kicking and screaming into modernity and civility.

"Let the women keep silent in the churches." That surely is direct and specific enough for all needs. He then adds explanatorily: "For it is not permitted to them to speak."
Churning this into "Paul was talking about the spiritual silence, the calm that women should display as an example of contemplation" or <insert your own adaption of some pretty plain speaking!>

Women in the OT are repetitively Barren, dumb, faithless & schemers who's sole skills seem to be leading men astray. Correct me if I'm wrong! Sure theres the odd one like Ruth, but for every one of those theres four or more Delilahs and Lots Daughters. Overall they are otherwise ignored completley!

I find it very hard to understand how any western woman can accept open sexism at its face value. I personally think that paul meant what he said with no need for such wheedling. But that this being the case, Paul like his Brothers in writing were bronze age racist and sexist to the bone.:hmm:

 

[Italianguy]

Wow, so much controversy over something that should be kept between a husband and wife.

Simple answer,

Parents, raise your children with a good understanding (according to your faith) of the roles of a man and a woman.

Husbands, Be good to your wife! Treat her like a queen! She is your queen! Treat your queen with respect, teat your queen with love, treat your queen to an icecream;DTreat your queen like you would treat your mother. Provide for her a kingdom, provide for her what she needs. Our wives are our future, with out your wife you are just a man...with no children to carry your name! Without our wives we are lonelyimsad

I once heard "Behind every great man is a woman....rolling her eye's";D

Wives, Do whatever you like!.......WHAT? Like i'm going to answer that any other way, yeahhhhh right. I'm trying to stay...OFF the couchhew

 

[Predator]

I will let you reference the Surah's you forgot....you know...the ones in which allow a husband o beat their wives, or hit them if they get out of line. I am sure you just forgot those ones or ran out of time before you could post them right?

Islam does not advocate wife-beating, especially to those women who are very nice and meet their responsibilities in general. It speaks about the women who are extremely defiant, rude, disobedient, unbearable, too belittling to their husbands especially in front of people, and would not care for their children.


There are many verses in the Bible that put women under the authority and judgment of men:

1- Man is clearly the ruler and the lord of the woman:
Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.""

I am not saying that a husband is allowed to kill his wife if she defies or reviles him. But certainly, him being her ruler gives him a great deal of power and authority over her. So why should he be forbidden from disciplining her if she gets out of line?


2- The man is allowed to cut the woman's hands if she defends her husband in the wrong way:
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow."

3- The daughter would get burnt alive with fire:
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the *****, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

There are many many other verses that I could dig up and provide, but these should be sufficient enough to prove that men have full authority over women in the Bible.
In fact, the Bible gave certain punishments for beating certain people:
Exodus 21
14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
15 "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.
16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
18 "If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist [a] and he does not die but is confined to bed,
19 the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed.
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
26 "If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye.
27 And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.
Numbers 35
18 Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.
..........
21 or if in hostility he hits him with his fist so that he dies, that person shall be put to death; he is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.
Deuteronomy 19
5 For instance, a man may go into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and as he swings his ax to fell a tree, the head may fly off and hit his neighbor and kill him. That man may flee to one of these cities and save his life.
The Bible went into many details about many of the hitting scenarios. It even went as far as giving a hypothetical example of a neighbor accidently causing for a tree to fall on his neighbor. Yet,
Never once did the Bible address the beating of wives! Why is that?
In fact, if a man rapes a single girl, which is technically a physical beating and a rape, then his punishment is to marry her:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"
I simply do not see where the Bible truly prohibits wife-beating. It seems clear to me that the Bible looks at the woman as someone who belongs only to her husband and that it is none of anyone's business to know or to care about what really goes on between them. So whether the husband beats his wife or not, it really doesn't matter. This is how I honestly see the Bible's view toward the wife. I am not saying that the Bible encourages wife-beating. But certainly, the Bible Just doesn't care at all about it rather than condemn
Also, Jesus has definitely seen or heard of wife-beating incidents throughout his life in the society that he lived in. I mean, I find it virtually impossible for a hard-headed society that he lived among, who were full of defiance and stubbornness, to not have wife-beating in it. So, Jesus' silence about it also proves that
Jesus too didn't really care at all about it.

Let us look at the following verses from the Bible:
Luke 6
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full.
35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Luke 6
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
But there is a limit to forgiveness:
Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
A bad wife could run out of the 77 times in a matter of days or weeks.

We also read:
Ephesians 5:32-33
32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
Christian men are expected to love their wives as they love themselves, and Christian women are expected to respect their husbands. But what if the wife does not respect nor honor her husband? What if she is an unbearable person? Full of foul words? Stubborn? Disrespectful and defiant to her master and head, her husband?
Yes, the man is expected to be merciful as GOD Almighty is Merciful, and to love his enemies and to do good to them, but what if the wife becomes such an enemy that she is too harmful to the man, his dignity and to their children? What if she doesn't want to take care of the children, nor to feed them? What if she continuously defies the social traditions? What if she constantly insult him and belittle him in front of people? What if she doesn't treat him as her "head"?

Furthermore, we read:
Hosea 3
1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."

This verse clearly and indisputably proves that wife-beating to the extremely defiant and disobedient women is allowed, for the following reasons:
1- If one were to love his wife as GOD Almighty loved the Israelites, then this means that he can beat the day lights out of her every time she defies him!
How many, many times did GOD Almighty annihilate the Israelites, as a punishment for them, and caused for their children's heads to be dashed, and their women's pregnant tummies to get ripped open, and for their men to be killed, and for their towns to be utterly destroyed, and for them to be scattered all over the lands, by their enemies, because they defied GOD Almighty?

2- Yes as husband, you must be
Loving and forgiving
Sweet and humble
Open-minded
A person with a very big, loving and forgiving heart
Gentleman
Generous
Tender, loving, fun, passive, and as perfect as you possibly could
with your wife!

But, if she does get waaaayyyy out of line with you, as the Israelites got way out of line with GOD Almighty, then you are permitted to treat her as GOD Almighty treated the Israelites - to punish her! And GOD Almighty annhialated the Israelites when He, the Almighty, decided to go against them.

It is clear that the Bible did not even once addressed the issue of wife-beating, nor husband-beating, while it did address many issues of beatings. It is also clear that the woman is under the control and authority of her husband, and the Bible clearly doesn't care much about what goes on between them.
However, the Bible did command kindness, humbleness and mercy to all people. The Bible also commanded the same to the wives. The Bible limited the forgiveness to 77 times. A bad wife could go through all of them in a matter of weeks or months. But however, the command for the husband to love his wife as GOD Almighty loved Israel only proves that wife-beating is permitted for the women who are defiant, disobedient, belittling to their "heads" and "masters" (their husbands), and stubborn, because GOD Almighty, while He Loved the people of Israel, He also annihilated them many times in the past.
Jesus also existed in a society that had both polygamy and wife-beating in it, and he never condemned any of them.

 

[Italianguy]

Islam does not advocate wife-beating, especially to those women who are very nice and meet their responsibilities in general. It speaks about the women who are extremely defiant, rude, disobedient, unbearable, too belittling to their husbands especially in front of people, and would not care for their children.


There are many verses in the Bible that put women under the authority and judgment of men:

1- Man is clearly the ruler and the lord of the woman:
Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.""

I am not saying that a husband is allowed to kill his wife if she defies or reviles him. But certainly, him being her ruler gives him a great deal of power and authority over her. So why should he be forbidden from disciplining her if she gets out of line?


2- The man is allowed to cut the woman's hands if she defends her husband in the wrong way:
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow."

3- The daughter would get burnt alive with fire:
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the *****, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

There are many many other verses that I could dig up and provide, but these should be sufficient enough to prove that men have full authority over women in the Bible.
In fact, the Bible gave certain punishments for beating certain people:
Exodus 21
14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
15 "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.
16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
18 "If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist [a] and he does not die but is confined to bed,
19 the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed.
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
26 "If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye.
27 And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.
Numbers 35
18 Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.
..........
21 or if in hostility he hits him with his fist so that he dies, that person shall be put to death; he is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.
Deuteronomy 19
5 For instance, a man may go into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and as he swings his ax to fell a tree, the head may fly off and hit his neighbor and kill him. That man may flee to one of these cities and save his life.
The Bible went into many details about many of the hitting scenarios. It even went as far as giving a hypothetical example of a neighbor accidently causing for a tree to fall on his neighbor. Yet,
Never once did the Bible address the beating of wives! Why is that?
In fact, if a man rapes a single girl, which is technically a physical beating and a rape, then his punishment is to marry her:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"
I simply do not see where the Bible truly prohibits wife-beating. It seems clear to me that the Bible looks at the woman as someone who belongs only to her husband and that it is none of anyone's business to know or to care about what really goes on between them. So whether the husband beats his wife or not, it really doesn't matter. This is how I honestly see the Bible's view toward the wife. I am not saying that the Bible encourages wife-beating. But certainly, the Bible Just doesn't care at all about it rather than condemn
Also, Jesus has definitely seen or heard of wife-beating incidents throughout his life in the society that he lived in. I mean, I find it virtually impossible for a hard-headed society that he lived among, who were full of defiance and stubbornness, to not have wife-beating in it. So, Jesus' silence about it also proves that
Jesus too didn't really care at all about it.

Let us look at the following verses from the Bible:
Luke 6
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full.
35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Luke 6
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
But there is a limit to forgiveness:
Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
A bad wife could run out of the 77 times in a matter of days or weeks.

We also read:
Ephesians 5:32-33
32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
Christian men are expected to love their wives as they love themselves, and Christian women are expected to respect their husbands. But what if the wife does not respect nor honor her husband? What if she is an unbearable person? Full of foul words? Stubborn? Disrespectful and defiant to her master and head, her husband?
Yes, the man is expected to be merciful as GOD Almighty is Merciful, and to love his enemies and to do good to them, but what if the wife becomes such an enemy that she is too harmful to the man, his dignity and to their children? What if she doesn't want to take care of the children, nor to feed them? What if she continuously defies the social traditions? What if she constantly insult him and belittle him in front of people? What if she doesn't treat him as her "head"?

Furthermore, we read:
Hosea 3
1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."

This verse clearly and indisputably proves that wife-beating to the extremely defiant and disobedient women is allowed, for the following reasons:
1- If one were to love his wife as GOD Almighty loved the Israelites, then this means that he can beat the day lights out of her every time she defies him!
How many, many times did GOD Almighty annihilate the Israelites, as a punishment for them, and caused for their children's heads to be dashed, and their women's pregnant tummies to get ripped open, and for their men to be killed, and for their towns to be utterly destroyed, and for them to be scattered all over the lands, by their enemies, because they defied GOD Almighty?

2- Yes as husband, you must be
Loving and forgiving
Sweet and humble
Open-minded
A person with a very big, loving and forgiving heart
Gentleman
Generous
Tender, loving, fun, passive, and as perfect as you possibly could
with your wife!

But, if she does get waaaayyyy out of line with you, as the Israelites got way out of line with GOD Almighty, then you are permitted to treat her as GOD Almighty treated the Israelites - to punish her! And GOD Almighty annhialated the Israelites when He, the Almighty, decided to go against them.

It is clear that the Bible did not even once addressed the issue of wife-beating, nor husband-beating, while it did address many issues of beatings. It is also clear that the woman is under the control and authority of her husband, and the Bible clearly doesn't care much about what goes on between them.
However, the Bible did command kindness, humbleness and mercy to all people. The Bible also commanded the same to the wives. The Bible limited the forgiveness to 77 times. A bad wife could go through all of them in a matter of weeks or months. But however, the command for the husband to love his wife as GOD Almighty loved Israel only proves that wife-beating is permitted for the women who are defiant, disobedient, belittling to their "heads" and "masters" (their husbands), and stubborn, because GOD Almighty, while He Loved the people of Israel, He also annihilated them many times in the past.
Jesus also existed in a society that had both polygamy and wife-beating in it, and he never condemned any of them.

Thanks! Glad i don't have to worry about it, my wife never gets out-of-line. I could never hit a woman anyway, it's ridiculous!

 

[barney]

The reason this keeps rolling along as a debate is that the explainations invariably are:

Islam does NOT tolerate wife beating. Women have a cherished and lofty position .....
then a long explaination about this.......Then right at the end, Except in clear cases where there is no alternative, then as a last resort, and it really is a last resort, a man may bring a transgressing woman who dishonours him into correction by lightly tapping her on the shoulder with a toothbrush.

2 points
1) Who actually ever does this? Who chases around the garden their spouse with a toothbrush?
2) Even this level of last resortism and light tapping is sexist. Theres no escaping that. Women have to answer at the end of the day, to men or they will be gently tapped.

 

[Italianguy]

Hey Glo

I dont think it's a matter of roles. People are people and a relationship is richer if there is equal respect. Thats impossible to acheive in reality, but does that mean it shouldnt be a goal?

Restricting women or men to certain roles based on history is an awful concept. It simply stagnates the species. Even back in the Bronze age women could have had the equality they have today in secular societies. it is purely a matter of the will of the people.

Islam made womens conditions somewhat better than they had been before. It staggers the beleif in humanity that it took till the 1900's to bring in the right to vote or equal pay or women in buisnesses.
Why did it take so long? Well because societies are almost exclusivly patriarchal. Judeism has its Patriarchs in Abraham, Moses and all. Christianity is patriarchal, but with some nods to Mary in catholicism, John Frumism isnt Jane frumism, Mormonism wasnt founded by Joanne Smith.

It's my assertion that the bigoted sexist suppressive attitudes of Man-kind are responsible for such gems as Pauls commands to cover the head and not to speak in church. We can wash these instructions endlessly till they conform kicking and screaming into modernity and civility.

"Let the women keep silent in the churches." That surely is direct and specific enough for all needs. He then adds explanatorily: "For it is not permitted to them to speak."
Churning this into "Paul was talking about the spiritual silence, the calm that women should display as an example of contemplation" or <insert your own adaption of some pretty plain speaking!>

Women in the OT are repetitively Barren, dumb, faithless & schemers who's sole skills seem to be leading men astray. Correct me if I'm wrong! Sure theres the odd one like Ruth, but for every one of those theres four or more Delilahs and Lots Daughters. Overall they are otherwise ignored completley!

I find it very hard to understand how any western woman can accept open sexism at its face value. I personally think that paul meant what he said with no need for such wheedling. But that this being the case, Paul like his Brothers in writing were bronze age racist and sexist to the bone.:hmm:

Those are some bold words to say about Paul and his brothers:hmm:

My wife doesn't speak during prayer and keeps her whole head coverd,(not just the top of the head like some other women), during all services. She does this though, buy choice and because it is written that way and shldn't be changed to fit modern societies needs to be liberal. I would agree with her. We do however attend a newer non-denominational church, so the way I dress and the fact that she will not speak and covers her head is always a topic for others, but I am not there for socializing anyway.

I do however see some younger men wearing hats in church, and i have brought it to the pastors attention....he said he will look into it:hmm:? Men are not supposed to wear hats in the church or praying!

I have also noticed the church changing overall. Women are dressing provactivley and men are just there to see thier buddies:hmm:.

I am starting to think i need to be back in a Catholic or Orthodox church?