Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Hugo]

If there were no corruption in the 'OT' then why would you need 'god' to descend and abrogate it, ergo saul no less?

By corruption do you mean scribal errors or deliberate insertions/deletions or both and do you have any notion of how much - 1%, 10% what?

 

[جوري]

By corruption do you mean scribal errors or deliberate insertions/deletions or both and do you have any notion of how much - 1%, 10% what?

I mean so that it is no longer valid as a religion that god would need to send a messenger or in this case himself to remedy the problems!
If there were no more folks led astray by errors or laws or way of life then there would be no need for god to let the universe collapse upon itself while he suckles as a new born to a mortal woman somewhere in beyt lahm or Galilee!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

I mean so that it is no longer valid as a religion that god would need to send a messenger or in this case himself to remedy the problems!
If there were no more folks led astray by errors or laws or way of life then there would be no need for god to let the universe collapse upon itself while he suckles as a new born to a mortal woman somewhere in beyt lahm or Galilee!

all the best

I take this to mean you have no idea what it means if a text is said to corrupted, no definition, no way of deciding, no logical or other way of looking at this supposed problem. By the way, just in case you had not noticed we were talking about the OT.

 

[جوري]

I take this to mean you have no idea what it means if a text is said to corrupted, no definition, no way of deciding, no logical or other way of looking at this supposed problem. By the way, just in case you had not noticed we were talking about the OT.

By the same token I take it, you have no good reason that god should descend in some remote region in west Asia when a perfectly good non-corrupt system was already established?

all the best

 

[Hugo]

By the same token I take it, you have no good reason that god should descend in some remote region in west Asia when a perfectly good non-corrupt system was already established?

all the best

Yes I have a perfectly logical reason why God should descend and bring redemption. There was no other way that we can be forgiven but by God giving us his righteousness through faith. We can never be good enough, even the best of us so no chance of adding up good works and making God somehow our debtor.

Still I like your admission that the Jewish religion was a 'perfectly good non-corrupt systems' though it does make some of your post somewhat schizophrenic.

Course, I may have all this wrong and you could just as easily be talking about something entirely different?

 

[جوري]

Yes I have a perfectly logical reason why God should descend and bring redemption. There was no other way that we can be forgiven but by God giving us his righteousness through faith. We can never be good enough, even the best of us so no chance of adding up good works and making God somehow our debtor.

so all the preceding covenants prior to that were null and void? God didn't think to give righteousness through faith to the earlier generations because they had no chance of adding up good deeds? but voila, he comes to west asia as a suckling child and all is redeemed- what kind of sense or lack of is this? Pls. do me a favor and don't classify it under a 'logical reason'

Still I like your admission that the Jewish religion was a 'perfectly good non-corrupt systems' though it does make some of your post somewhat schizophrenic.

I never said it was a 'perfectly good non-corrupt' system. Do read in context so that it isn't obvious to everyone that you are the one with mental problems.

Course, I may have all this wrong and you could just as easily be talking about something entirely different?

Like what?

 

[Predator]

This has nothing to do with corrupting the written law as the words plainly show. It is talking about people ACTING corruptly and its obvious one can do that with any scripture or any law.


Here again its not speaking of corruption of the text but handling the law in a way that devalues or misinterprets it.

This is just a biased reading of what the text actually says and it is strikingly illogical to use an argument that 'proves' corruption by citing the supposedly corrupted text unless of course the two bits you have cited are the only unadulterated ones.

The Jews received the highest number of Prophets. Yet, neither Moses nor Jesus nor several other Prophets liked the Jews!

The old Jewish trick about Jews received the highest number of Prophets which then makes them GOD Almighty's "Chosen People" is nothing but a deception. In fact, it is a bad thing for the Jews that GOD Almighty kept sending them Prophets who many of them ended up getting killed anyway by the Jews themselves according to the Saying of Jesus peace be upon him below.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"


The Jews were corrupt! They corrupted the Word of GOD Almighty. Like Jeremiah 8:8, the Noble Quran clearly states it:

"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (The Noble Quran, 5:13)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"


No race, color or gender are chosen by GOD Almighty in Islam. Everyone is evaluated by his Good Deeds.

Allah Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

As I mentioned above, Muslims believe that the idea of "Chosen People" is a Jewish lie that was fabricated and inserted into the Bible to make the People of Israel be the Superior over all nations. The Bible, however, admits that it got corrupted by the Jews themselves, thus making their bogus claims get flushed right down the toilet.

 

[Hugo]

so all the preceding covenants prior to that were null and void? God didn't think to give righteousness through faith to the earlier generations because they had no chance of adding up good deeds? but voila, he comes to west asia as a suckling child and all is redeemed- what kind of sense or lack of is this? Pls. do me a favor and don't classify it under a 'logical reason'

You are greatly mistaken, Abraham had no written covenant and no law to work with but the Bible is absolutely clear that righteousness was granted to him through faith and he is the father of the faithful so we get righteousness in the same way. So the covenant God had with Abraham is the same he has with us.

I never said it was a 'perfectly good non-corrupt' system. Do read in context so that it isn't obvious to everyone that you are the one with mental problems.

Fine then please explain what you were talking about when you said the following?

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
By the same token I take it, you have no good reason that god should descend in some remote region in west Asia when a perfectly good non-corrupt system was already established?

 

[جوري]

You are greatly mistaken, Abraham had no written covenant and no law to work with but the Bible is absolutely clear that righteousness was granted to him through faith and he is the father of the faithful so we get righteousness in the same way. So the covenant God had with Abraham is the same he has with us.

Not greatly mistaken, Abraham (p) was given the scrolls..
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
إِنَّ هَذَا لَفِي الصُّحُفِ الْأُولَى {18}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 87:18] Lo! This is in the former scrolls.[/SIZE]
صُحُفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى {19}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 87:19] The Books of Abraham and Moses.[/SIZE]

***
and a covenant,
وَمَن يَرْغَبُ عَن مِّلَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِلاَّ مَن سَفِهَ نَفْسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنَاهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَإِنَّهُ فِي الآخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ {130}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:130] And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.[/SIZE]


and he is of the righteous without having to believe that a god is born later to eat his sins.. Now, do I want to go by a bible that is akin to mythology than a religion? or by the unerring word of God?

I think the choice is obvious!

Fine then please explain what you were talking about when you said the following?

Do you know what a rhetorical question is? I used it for persuasive effect to get to the bottom of why you think that a born/suckling/dying god is needed if indeed a perfect, established covenant was already in effect!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

Not greatly mistaken, Abraham (p) was given the scrolls..
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
إِنَّ هَذَا لَفِي الصُّحُفِ الْأُولَى {18}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 87:18] Lo! This is in the former scrolls.[/SIZE]
صُحُفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى {19}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 87:19] The Books of Abraham and Moses.[/SIZE]

Dawood 87:19 All this is written in earlier scriptures; the scriptures of Abraham and Moses.

I see nothing of a covenant mentioned here and if we take the preceding verses it must be referring to giving warning and this was addressed to the unbelievers of Mecca. In any case if there is a book of Abraham where is it or are you basing you faith and arguments on a book that as far as we know, no one has ever seen?

and a covenant,
وَمَن يَرْغَبُ عَن مِّلَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِلاَّ مَن سَفِهَ نَفْسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنَاهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَإِنَّهُ فِي الآخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ {130}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:130] And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.[/SIZE]

This is not a very good translation and it seems best to say 'faith' not religion and that is what I said - we know about his faith from the Biblical accounts and the Qu'ran simply endorses it without much in the way of details.

and he is of the righteous without having to believe that a god is born later to eat his sins.. Now, do I want to go by a bible that is akin to mythology than a religion? or by the unerring word of God?

He is of the righteous just like any Christian through faith with nothing added; this is what the Bible says and it appears that that is also what the Qu'ran says. If you wish we can discuss Abraham's faith in more detail. (I have no idea at all what 'eating sins' means)

 

[جوري]

Dawood 87:19 All this is written in earlier scriptures; the scriptures of Abraham and Moses.

I see nothing of a covenant mentioned here and if we take the preceding verses it must be referring to giving warning and this was addressed to the unbelievers of Mecca. In any case if there is a book of Abraham where is it or are you basing you faith and arguments on a book that as far as we know, no one has ever seen?

you said

Originally Posted by Hugo
You are greatly mistaken, Abraham had no written covenan

clearly the Quran states he had scrolls, as to where they are, why don't you go excavating in the stolen lands? It isn't the point where they are and what they contain, for what they do contain is pure monotheism, not a triple headed god-- the Quran is the final arbiter of all that preceded it!

This is not a very good translation and it seems best to say 'faith' not religion and that is what I said - we know about his faith from the Biblical accounts and the Qu'ran simply endorses it without much in the way of details.

You'll always find something you dislike, luckily you'll have no luck expressing your dislike in a meaningful manner to any of us, as the Quran exists in its original form:
Mila= creed of Abraham..

let's look at it in full context:


Millat-i-Ibrahim- the religious creed of Abraham (pbuh) – Quran says:
وَمَن يَرْغَبُ عَن مِّلَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِلاَّ مَن سَفِهَ نَفْسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنَاهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَإِنَّهُ فِي الآخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ
And who forsakes the Millat of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous. (Quran 2:130)
إِذْ قَالَ لَهُ رَبُّهُ أَسْلِمْ قَالَ أَسْلَمْتُ لِرَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
Behold! his Lord said to him, "Submit (aslim)." He said, "I submit (aslamtu) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe." (Quran 2:131)
وَوَصَّى بِهَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بَنِيهِ وَيَعْقُوبُ يَا بَنِيَّ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَى لَكُمُ الدِّينَ فَلاَ تَمُوتُنَّ إَلاَّ وَأَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah has chosen the Faith for you; then die not except as Muslims." (Quran 2:132)
As is clear from these verses, Millat-i-Ibrahimi refers to submission (Islam) to God Almighty and is used as opposed to 'Al-Mushrikeen'. In other words, it not only entails in itself Oneness of God, but also one's submission to that God and His Will (Islam) as is clear from the verses above.

He is of the righteous just like any Christian through faith with nothing added; this is what the Bible says and it appears that that is also what the Qu'ran says. If you wish we can discuss Abraham's faith in more detail. (I have no idea at all what 'eating sins' means)

It means, no one is in need of a descending suckling/dying god to redeem them when their sins were forgiven in the same fashion all along prior to Christianity..

all the best

 

[Hugo]

clearly the Quran states he had scrolls, as to where they are, why don't you go excavating in the stolen lands? It isn't the point where they are and what they contain, for what they do contain is pure monotheism, not a triple headed god-- the Quran is the final arbiter of all that preceded it!

How can you know what they contain if you don't have them?

Millat-i-Ibrahim- the religious creed of Abraham (pbuh) – Quran says: And who forsakes the Millat of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous. (Quran 2:130)
Behold! his Lord said to him, "Submit (aslim)." He said, "I submit (aslamtu) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe." (Quran 2:131) And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah has chosen the Faith for you; then die not except as Muslims." (Quran 2:132)

As is clear from these verses, Millat-i-Ibrahimi refers to submission (Islam) to God Almighty and is used as opposed to 'Al-Mushrikeen'. In other words, it not only entails in itself Oneness of God, but also one's submission to that God and His Will (Islam) as is clear from the verses above.

So you argument appears to be that Abraham submitted to God, Islam means submission therefore Abraham was a Muslim? Any by extension anyone who submits to God is a Muslim? All this hanging on a word that was defined 2,500 years later - can't say I would or indeed anyone would be convinced that kind of logic.

 

[Grace Seeker]

If there were no corruption in the 'OT' then why would you need 'god' to descend and abrogate it, ergo saul no less?

There are several plausible responses to that question, but this is not the right thread to discuss them.



If God has a history of sending prophets only to have the people corrupt the texts, what is to keep the lastest prophet from having the message he delivers from being corrupted?

 

[جوري]

How can you know what they contain if you don't have them?

I already wrote that Quran and Sunna are the final arbiter of all that came before!

So you argument appears to be that Abraham submitted to God, Islam means submission therefore Abraham was a Muslim? Any by extension anyone who submits to God is a Muslim? All this hanging on a word that was defined 2,500 years later - can't say I would or indeed anyone would be convinced that kind of logic.

I have no argument with you, as I know the christian method not to be different from atheistic ones, verbal diarrhea much ado about nothing..


all the best

 

[جوري]

There are several plausible responses to that question, but this is not the right thread to discuss them.



If God has a history of sending prophets only to have the people corrupt the texts, what is to keep the lastest prophet from having the message he delivers from being corrupted?

If God wills that it not be corrupted then he'll safeguard it -- which is exactly what happened with Quran-- it is a question of timing and Allah swt knows best what ummah is suited for what messenger and when!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

If God wills that it not be corrupted then he'll safeguard it -- which is exactly what happened with Quran-- it is a question of timing and Allah swt knows best what ummah is suited for what messenger and when!

all the best

Let me see if I understand you correctly:

If God wills that something not be corrutped, then he'll safeguard it.
The Torah and the Injil were both messages from God, but were corrupted.
Thererfore, am I to assume that God did not will that they remain uncorrupted? And would that not mean that God actually will for the people to have a corrupted message for he could have prevented the corruption, but rather allowed it, for Allah knows best.

 

[جوري]

Let me see if I understand you correctly:

If God wills that something not be corrutped, then he'll safeguard it.
The Torah and the Injil were both messages from God, but were corrupted.
Thererfore, am I to assume that God did not will that they remain uncorrupted? And would that not mean that God actually will for the people to have a corrupted message for he could have prevented the corruption, but rather allowed it, for Allah knows best.

God indeed willed that the people not have a corrupted message and as such he gave the complete and uncorrupted message in the Quran (the final arbiter and criterion) ...
The question of the ages, is something you should work out on your own private time..
Does God create evil, or does God give free will for folks to choose between good and evil?
Does God corrupt, or do people not like what was brought them so they crucify their messengers and change the commandments turn men into gods and whatever else?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

.... In the asking questions of Christian thread you've personally asked what appears to me to have been the same question ....

:embarrass

Yes. Sometimes there are different answers given.... I asked in this thread about music.

I remember u got these answers : song that has good words and without musical instrument is halal but with music it's not allowed and some say only daff is allowed .

Here all agree about another matter : you must be careful so that songs do not turn u away from worhipping God / u are not allowed to listen to songs if it distracts ur attention in prayers.

So , from all these ' different' answers , it's not hard to find the guide line : anything that keeps u away from God's path is forbidden. After reading various fatwas , personally I have stopped listening to romantic songs ; so that the romantic words with music don't come in to mind when I pray.

The answer to my question on "how one is saved" has received a number of different responses as well.

Some may urgue if it's a must to beleive in the Last Prophet pbuh but there is no different opinion that To be saved , it's a must to worship one God only without any partner .


.

I would be curious as to where these other (non-biblical) named prophets are from.

I browsed about Prophets and found this.

What prophets are named in the Qur'an?:

There are 25 prophets mentioned by name in the Qur'an, although Muslims believe that there were many more in different times and places. Among the prophets that Muslims honor are:

• Adam
• Idris (Enoch)
• Nuh (Noah)
• Hud
• Saleh
• Ibrahim (Abraham)

• Isma'il (Ishmael)
• Ishaq (Isaac)
• Lut (Lot)
• Ya'qub (Jacob)
• Yousef (Joseph)
• Shu'aib
• Ayyub (Job)
• Musa (Moses)
• Harun (Aaron)
• Dhu'l-kifl (Ezekiel)
• Dawud (David)
• Sulaiman (Solomon)

• Ilias (Elias)
• Al-Yasa (Elisha)
• Yunus (Jonah)
• Zakariyya (Zechariah)

• Yahya (John)
• 'Isa (Jesus)
• Muhammad

Peace be upon them all.

http://islam.about.com/od/prophets/p/prophets.htm

.....over a 120,000 prophets have been sent to people at different stages in human history, to guide the peoples who settled in different lands toward the worship of Allah.
....And as Prophet Muhammad was an Arab, it is only reasonable that the language of the Qur'an is Arabic, and the stories narrated in the Qur'an are immediately relevant and understandable to him and his people in the first place.


Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1184649139164&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE#ixzz0hjvnt1HT
​

 

[alcurad]

...
If God has a history of sending prophets only to have the people corrupt the texts, what is to keep the lastest prophet from having the message he delivers from being corrupted?

humanity evolved in understanding and capability that it has reached a place where it doesn't need new prophets and revelation anymore, hence only the final revelation is the one to stand unchanged.

 

[Hugo]

humanity evolved in understanding and capability that it has reached a place where it doesn't need new prophets and revelation anymore, hence only the final revelation is the one to stand unchanged.

Are you saying that there has been no change in capacity for learning for the last 1400 years, that largely illiterate Arabs were the ones who had reached the pinnacle of intellect and understanding?