Things in Islam I am curious about...

Salaam/Peace
I remember u got these answers : song that has good words and without musical instrument is halal but with music it's not allowed and some say only daff is allowed .

Here all agree about another matter : you must be careful so that songs do not turn u away from worhipping God / u are not allowed to listen to songs if it distracts ur attention in prayers.

So , from all these ' different' answers , it's not hard to find the guide line : anything that keeps u away from God's path is forbidden. After reading various fatwas , personally I have stopped listening to romantic songs ; so that the romantic words with music don't come in to mind when I pray.

I find this answer logically troublesome since almost anything can keep you away from God and almost anything might come into your mind when in prayer so almost anything can be halal so why pick on music?

Some may urgue if it's a must to beleive in the Last Prophet pbuh but there is no different opinion that To be saved , it's a must to worship one God only without any partner
.

Are you saying that the only requirement for getting into heaven is to worship one God?

.....over a 120,000 prophets have been sent to people at different stages in human history, to guide the peoples who settled in different lands toward the worship of Allah.

Do you know the source for this figure of 120,000 as I assume it is taken are figurative or legend?
 
For the record, I worship no idols.

Worshiping God Almighty is essential in every true faith, and how we worship is very important. Use of idols and people created from dust (such as Jesus, Mary, Buddha, etc...) to reach GOD Almighty is a form of idol worshiping itself, because these idols are being partnered with the One True Living GOD Almighty. They are being glorified and used as "holy symbols" to represent and reach GOD.

The Bible itself is clear about forbidding all forms of idol worshiping:

Let us look at Deuteronomy 4:15-19 "And you must take good care of your souls, because you did not see any form on the day of Jehovah's speaking to you in Ho'reb out of the middle of the fire, that you may not act ruinously and may not really make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens." .

Here we see two things: First, GOD Almighty told the people of Israel that he never appeared to them in any way shape or form, and second, he prohibited them to create any images to represent Him. This is the reason why Moses (peace be upon him) told the Israelites that GOD Almighty never appeared to them in any visible form.

In fact, one of the Ten Commandments says "You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything...you shall not bow down to them or serve them." (Exodus 20:4-5). Only Allah Almighty or GOD Almighty should be worshiped. The Bible made it clear in several verses that partnering idols with GOD Almighty in His Worship is forbidden: Psalm 115:4-8, Isaiah 44:14-20 and Isaiah 46:6-7.

It is important to know that Jesus who worshiped Allah Almighty in Luke 5:16 and Matthew 26:39 and never used images in worship. The Bible considers GOD Almighty as a "spirit" and He must be worshiped with spirit and truth: "God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth." (John 4:24).

Use of idols (humans or objects) is the wrong way to worship the Almighty GOD: "Guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:21). Also in (Deuteronomy 7:25) the Jews were ordered by God to burn idols and never use them in worship.


Christians today do not follow their religion in the right way. They do not worship Allah Almighty in the appropriate way that they are supposed to. Christian priests and ministers have added so many corruptions and disagreements to their religion that Christianity no longer became a valid absolute pure religion from GOD Almighty. Man's corruption and disagreements in the Bible had devastated the Bible's purity and accuracy such as below

maryworship.jpg
 
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I believe the OP would rather this thread was kept for answering his questions about Islam, rather than a debate about Christianity.. For that reason, please take any debates to a different thread.
 
Salaam/Peace

..almost anything can keep you away from God


How ? If I attend Quran class , If I attend Arabic language class , these will help me to increase my knowledge and worship God more correctly and with more devtotion . But If I watch music video regularly , then the naked/ half naked shameless singers with their vulgar songs won't help me in my prayers .


and almost anything might come into your mind when in prayer so almost anything can be halal so why pick on music?

Devil is after us . So , when we try to pray , he wants to disturb us. U may say that TV , today's vulgar songs and movies are the tools of devil. Benefits are less , harms are more in these. So , the less time u spend for these , it's better for your hereafter . If u regularly read holy book , listen to recitation of holy book , don't see movies , u will see / feel the positive changes in ur life soon.



Are you saying that the only requirement for getting into heaven is to worship one God?


IT'S THE MUST.


Do you know the source for this figure of 120,000 as I assume it is taken are figurative or legend?


To my knowledge , there is a hadith that says so.
 
Salaam/Peace

How? If I attend Quran class, If I attend Arabic language class, these will help me to increase my knowledge and worship God more correctly and with more devtotion. But If I watch music video regularly, then the naked/half naked shameless singers with their vulgar songs won't help me in my prayers.

Do you suppose that all music is about scantily clad females? Here you make a serious and fundamental not to say foolish logical error by arguing that some music is bad therefore all music is bad. But suppose you read a perfectly good book then that story might pop into your mind when you are praying so by your argument the book should be banned. You might be keen on cooking and a new recipe might intrude into your mind and so on and so on. So even what is of itself good can get in the way sometimes. Devotion is not simply a matter of knowledge or speaking judgementally as you do here, its a matter of acting a holy life in every day things and God has given us things that are good and bring us joy and for me music is one of those things.

Devil is after us. So, when we try to pray, he wants to disturb us. U may say that TV, today's vulgar songs and movies are the tools of devil. Benefits are less, harms are more in these. So, the less time u spend for these, it's better for your hereafter. If u regularly read holy book, listen to recitation of holy book, don't see movies, u will see/feel the positive changes in ur life soon.

I think you miss the point, do you really think that all God wants us to do is read his book and pray? If the word of God does not work out actively in our lives in terms of holy living and concern and love for our fellow man they are just a sham.
 
Do you suppose that all music is about scantily clad females? Here you make a serious and fundamental not to say foolish logical error by arguing that some music is bad therefore all music is bad.
No, she didn't. She said she has quit listening to romantic music. I didn't see the adjective "all" in Muslim Woman's statement.
 
Salaam/Peace

... by your argument the book should be banned.

Human being have many opinion . Question is who is right , whose opinion to follow ? For Muslims , criteria is Quran and Hadith.

As we are encouraged to gain knowledge and reading book is one of the best ways in the path of knowledge , books specially religious books can't be banned :D

Yes , anti-religious books , pornography must be banned.


PS. like the Christian thread , I request mod not to allow debate here . We Muslims will only explain what we beleive , our belief must not be challenged and off topics should be removed . Thanks.
 
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Salaam/Peace

Human being have many opinion . Question is who is right , whose opinion to follow ? For Muslims , criteria is Quran and Hadith.

As we are encouraged to gain knowledge and reading book is one of the best ways in the path of knowledge , books specially religious books can't be banned :D

Yes , anti-religious books , pornography must be banned.

PS. like the Christian thread , I request mod not to allow debate here . We Muslims will only explain what we beleive , our belief must not be challenged and off topics should be removed . Thanks.

I was not aware I was challenging what you believe, that is a matter for you, what I was pointing out was a failure in your logic and because of that your posting can be misinterpreted.

May I ask for clarification here from the moderators, if anyone cites a belief it must be accepted as fact and never challenged?
 
I agree with Muslim Woman. This has degenerated into a debate into Christianity, and one that is perpetuated by certain member(s). This is to discuss Islam and inquire about Islam, and inquire I shall.

1) Is there any evidence bar Islamic sources that the Kaaba as we know it today was built by Abraham? Or any third party sources that confirm the Black Stone in the Kaaba was in the original Kaaba?
2) Is there a great respect in Islam for teachers (of any subject)?
3) How is Islam's attitude to modern technology or science? Are there any major Islamic factions opposed to these things?
 
I agree with Muslim Woman. This has degenerated into a debate into Christianity, and one that is perpetuated by certain member(s). This is to discuss Islam and inquire about Islam, and inquire I shall.

Agreed, as well. And so I shall edit out of a past post a response that I don't want anyone to think is just a complaint. Though I didn't post it with a question mark, the observation is one of the things that I don't understand with regard to Islam.

From where I sit, Islam is a very curious religion filled with all sorts of non sequiturs.

And one of those non sequitors remains for me the way that Islam speaks about salvation. It is through obedience, it is through having the scales weighed in one's favor. But Islam also admits to the reality of sin. And that God is holy. If God is holy, then the standard (for admission to God's presence) would not be that good outweighs evil, but that our lives are full of good and not evil. Even a bit of leaven, leavens the whole loaf. So, based on our works it would seem that there is no hope of salvation. And Islam admits this as even Muhammad must depend on God's grace to be admitted to paradise. Yet, rather than teaching people to fully rely on God and in response to God's grace to do good works as offerings of thanksgiving, Islam continues to teach to do good works as a way to earn salvation by causing the scales to tip your direction. When not even Muhammad could get them to do so. So, it just doesn't make sense to me.

First people answer one way, I question that and they come down on the other side. Ask the question again and they are back to answering the other way. And no one ever seems to notice that in the end the Islamic answer with regard to salvation is double speak.

So, I give Islam the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is my understanding that is still lacking. And I return with questions looking for deeper, fuller, more nuanced answers. And will continue to press for that more nuanced answer until I get one. If one is not there, then so be it. But I'm going to ask anyway.

Perhaps someone who has not participated in "the discussion" can yet edify me on this topic?
 
Please bear in mind that the purpose of this thread is not for debates, but for Grace Seeker to gain clarification about Islamic beliefs and practices. Please also bear in mind that the forum rules require that discussions, and indeed debates, are carried out in a respectful manner. All members agreed to these rules when they signed up to become a member. It isn't unreasonable, therefore, to ask that all members respect and follow the rules that they agreed to which do, by the way, apply to everyone.

Thread re-opened.
 
Thank-you, Uthmān. And I apologize for going off topic myself at times in the discussion to defend my views rather than just continuing to ask questions.

Of course, I don't see this as my own private thread. I have learned much from other people's questions as much as my own. We just need to do a better job of internally policing ourselves so that we are asking questions about Islam, and responding to questions about Islam. We don't need to either make or respond to questions/comments about Christianity. And I will try to do better.

Supreme and I both asked some questions of Islam on the preceeding page, perhaps we should take them up again.

1) Is there any evidence bar Islamic sources that the Kaaba as we know it today was built by Abraham? Or any third party sources that confirm the Black Stone in the Kaaba was in the original Kaaba?
2) Is there a great respect in Islam for teachers (of any subject)?
3) How is Islam's attitude to modern technology or science? Are there any major Islamic factions opposed to these things?


I don't want anyone to think [this] is just a complaint. Though I didn't post it with a question mark, the observation is one of the things that I don't understand with regard to Islam.

From where I sit, Islam is a very curious religion filled with all sorts of non sequiturs.

And one of those non sequitors remains for me the way that Islam speaks about salvation. It is through obedience, it is through having the scales weighed in one's favor. But Islam also admits to the reality of sin. And that God is holy. If God is holy, then the standard (for admission to God's presence) would not be that good outweighs evil, but that our lives are full of good and not evil. Even a bit of leaven, leavens the whole loaf. So, based on our works it would seem that there is no hope of salvation. And Islam admits this as even Muhammad must depend on God's grace to be admitted to paradise. Yet, rather than teaching people to fully rely on God and in response to God's grace to do good works as offerings of thanksgiving, Islam continues to teach to do good works as a way to earn salvation by causing the scales to tip your direction. When not even Muhammad could get them to do so. So, it just doesn't make sense to me.

First people answer one way, I question that and they come down on the other side. Ask the question again and they are back to answering the other way. And no one ever seems to notice that in the end the Islamic answer with regard to salvation is double speak.

So, I give Islam the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is my understanding that is still lacking. And I return with questions looking for deeper, fuller, more nuanced answers. And will continue to press for that more nuanced answer until I get one. If one is not there, then so be it. But I'm going to ask anyway.

Perhaps someone who has not participated in "the discussion" can yet edify me on this topic?
 
Looking at some posts I have a question and it is a simple one and arises out of some discussion of the 120,000 prophets though not specifically about that - are we to take everything in the Qu'ran or hadith literally - what is the Islamic dogma on this?

If this is not the case how can we decide in any given case which way a text should be read?
 
Salaam/Peace

. .. Kaaba as we know it today was built by Abraham?


holy kaba was built and re-built few times. 2 related verses


And (remember) when We made the House (the Kabah at Makkah) a place of resort for mankind and a place of safety. And take you (people) the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham) (or the stone on which Ibrahim (Abraham) stood while he was building the Kabah) as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers, e.g. two Rakat after the Tawaf of the Kabah at Makkah), and We commanded Ibrahim (Abraham) and Ismail (Ishmael) that they should purify My House (the Kabah at Makkah) for those who are circumambulating it, or staying (Itikaf), or bowing or prostrating themselves (there, in prayer).

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #125)


And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) and (his son) Ismail (Ishmael) were raising the foundations of the House (the Kabah at Makkah), (saying), "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #127)

related info:

"What is the Ka'ba?"

The Ka'ba is the place of worship which God commanded Abraham and Ishmael to build over four thousand years ago.

The building was constructed of stone on what many believe was the original site of a sanctuary established by Adam. God commanded Abraham to summon all mankind to visit this place, and when pilgrims go there today they say 'At Thy service, O Lord'.

http://islamonline.com/news/articles/6/Islam-Q-&-A-Part-One.html
 
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The Ka'ba is the place of worship which God commanded Abraham and Ishmael to build over four thousand years ago.

The building was constructed of stone on what many believe was the original site of a sanctuary established by Adam. God commanded Abraham to summon all mankind to visit this place, and when pilgrims go there today they say 'At Thy service, O Lord'.

This is interesting and given we do not know with certainty when Abraham lived because in the stories about him there are no elements that clearly link him to various civilizations so we might be talking of 4 to 5000 years ago. So do you know of any archaeology done there or carbon dating that sort of thing or is it treated more like legend than fact?
 
The building was constructed of stone on what many believe was the original site of a sanctuary established by Adam. God commanded Abraham to summon all mankind to visit this place,
I thought that Muhammad (pbuh) was the first prophet to have a message for all mankind?
 
I thought that Muhammad (pbuh) was the first prophet to have a message for all mankind?

what does summoning all of mankind to the house of God have to do with a 'message' for all mankind? Abraham is considered the father of prophets because during his time, he and his nephew lut were the only two monotheists with nothing to rely on but their fitrah.. as such he became a friend of God and a father to all prophets..

125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary:102 take, then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer.103 And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael: "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it,104 and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves [in prayer]."

126 And, lo, Abraham prayed: "O my Sustainer! Make this a land secure, and grant its people fruitful sustenance - such of them as believe in God and the Last Day." [God] answered: "And whoever shall deny the truth, him will I let enjoy himself for a short while - but in the end I shall drive him to suffering through fire: and how vile a journey's end!"

127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the Temple, [they prayed:] "O our Sustainer! Accept Thou this from us: for, verily, Thou alone art all-hearing, all-knowing!

128 "O our Sustainer! Make us surrender ourselves unto Thee, and make out of our a community that shall surrender itself unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and accept our repentance: for, verily, Thou alone art the Acceptor of Repentance, the Dispenser of Grace!

129 "O our Sustainer! Raise up from the midst of our offspring106 an apostle from among themselves, who shall convey unto them Thy messages, and impart unto them revelation as well as wisdom, and cause them to grow in purity: for, verily, Thou alone art almighty, truly wise!"

130 And who, unless he be weak of mind, would want to abandon Abraham's creed, seeing that We have indeed raised him high in this world, and that, verily, in the life to come he shall be among the righteous?

131 When his Sustainer said to him, "Surrender thyself unto Me!" - he answered, "I have surrendered myself unto [Thee,] the Sustainer of all the worlds."

I recall again that somewhere in the pages of this thread you asked and were answered this question?
 
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Salaam/Peace


I thought that Muhammad (pbuh) was the first prophet to have a message for all mankind?

Yes, Muhammed pbuh is the last Prophet pbuh and his teaching through the final revealation is applicable till the last day . But God sent Prophets pbuh earlier with the same message ( God is one ) and they taught about fasting , prayer , hajj etc to the people of their time .

Later when a new messenger came , he got some new rules .



here is the related verses from the chapter Al-Hajj

And (remember) when We showed Ibrahim (Abraham) the site of the (Sacred) House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) (saying):


"Associate not anything (in worship) with Me, [La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah) - Islamic Monotheism], and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up (for prayer), and those who bow (submit themselves with humility and obedience to Allah), and make prostration (in prayer);"


And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage).

They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj ).
 
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I have been asked to join this thread and help maybe answer some of the questions about Islam. I hope I am actually useful in that area.

This issue of salvation seems to have created a bit of confusion though.
So, I give Islam the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is my understanding that is still lacking.

Either that, or perhaps you were told about it from new or undereducated muslims who were confused about it themselves, because it is actually pretty straight forward subject.

The meaning of salvation itself needs to be "differentiated" between what it is in Islam and what it is in christianity or other religions and churches.

In Islam there is no "original sin". We are born on cleanliness and instinct and are held accountable only after puberty. Our existence in this World have come after Adam was created and where he resided in paradise until "the apple" incident let's just call it, but that was forgiven from both Adam and Eve. We are here on this Earth to worship God. The act of recognizing that God is our creator, our lord, and our benefactor alone with no other, IS our "salvation".

As the prophet said: "Whomever said "There is no god except Allah" truly believing it, will enter paradise"

Or in another much clarifying hadith narrated by Moath bin Jabal: "Whomever declared that no god but the One God and that Mohammad is his messenger, prayed his prayer and fasted Ramadan, became his right to be forgiven and have salvation, whether he made Hijra or sat where he was born (means doing nothing)." so Moath asked: "shouldn't I announce it to the people?" the prophet said: "Let the people do deeds, for paradise has a hundred levels, between each level and the next is greater than the sky and the ground....." (Tabarani)

So basically people's good deeds are what gets them their level and rewards in paradise, and allows them to be spared ANY cleansing punishment for their bad actions, but it's worship and belief in God that gives them salvation.

But Islam also admits to the reality of sin. And that God is holy. If God is holy, then the standard (for admission to God's presence) would not be that good outweighs evil, but that our lives are full of good and not evil. Even a bit of leaven, leavens the whole loaf. So, based on our works it would seem that there is no hope of salvation.
Sorry, no comment from me because I do not follow what you're saying.

Yet, rather than teaching people to fully rely on God and in response to God's grace to do good works as offerings of thanksgiving, Islam continues to teach to do good works as a way to earn salvation by causing the scales to tip your direction.
I don't see the sense in making philosphical deductions of what "should" be the way to God as analyzed by outside view when something can be understood from direct reading. You've been on the forum for a while and I think you may remember when some non-muslims were "complaining" about how come disbelievers who do not believe in God will still spend eternity in Hell even if they do good deeds and have lead righteous lives. So it is obvious that many people already know that as muslims, our belief in God is first and foremost our salvation.

However, it isn't really belief if we say yes we believe and then we neglect the worship actions that we were told we have to do, deeds confirm the belief. Just like in a test it's no good to claim you know the answers and then do not bother solving anything. So there are fundamental deeds that we need to perform to actually BE believers relying on God for our salvation. Those are the corners of Islam: 5 prayers, fasting of Ramadan, annual zakat, and one pilgrimage. The 5 prayers have no excuse not to perform, the rest are only for those capable either health-wise or financially or both. On top of those, muslims perform as many good deeds as they can and stay away from as many sins as they can because they fear judgement day and God's punishment, even if temporary. That's where the scales come in.

The scales on Judgement Day are for believers only. It is the scale that decides whether they will need to go through any cleansing punishment for their actions or go straight for paradise. All hadiths are clearly denoting that good deeds outweigh bad ones, and that God forgives the sins we repent from, yet a single moment in hell will be worse than our entire lives in this World and there will be people who have loads of that.

If the scales tip in the believer's favour, they go through to paradise. If the scales don't, they will have to be punished in Hellfire until they atone for their unforgiven sins (never regretted or repented from). Even for those who make it through and the scale tips in their favour, there will be a difference between the great pious believers who did everything they could to lead the best of lives, and those who barely got through. Judgement Day's horrors and length alone is foretold to make our full lives in the World with all the hardship we endured seem like a passing breeze and like a single night followed by morning in comparison. There will be those in shadows well dressed and rested and already informed of their place in paradise, and those who will be left in limbo until the time of reckoning, and those standing underneath a burning sun that will be feet away from their heads, their blood will boil. Some believers will sleep through most of the actions, and some will witness many of the horrors. Part of the torture of Judgement Day itself is its immense length: "Beware a day which will be 50,000 years long". Some people will be left so long without reckoning in the burning sun that they will plead to be taken anywhere even if it is Hell. Then there is still crossing the pathway, and in the end there will be the level in paradise at which people will spend their eternity, they will attain it by their actions and will be widely varied.

The scales will also balance out people's pain towards each other and their level of life. Those who hurt others even by mentioning them badly behind their back will have some of their good deeds taken away from their scales and given to those who were wronged. Those who had a hard life will be given favour and rewards above those who had an easy one: "When the people who lived in ease in their lifetimes see the favour and rewards on Judgement Day given to those who endured patient on their hardships, they will wish that they in turn have spent their entire lives having their skin being eaten by iron clippers"

However no amount of good deeds will be enough if there was no belief in God, just like no amount of problem solving will help you if you don't write your name on the answer sheets, and that is what is meant by belief in God, salvation by him.

Disbelievers who did not believe in God will endure all the punishments of Judgement Day and without scales will simply be lead to Hell, and all their good deeds will be as dissipating dust: "[FONT=Verdana,arial]And We shall turn to whatever deeds they did (in this life), and We shall make such deeds as floating dust scattered about. [/FONT]" [25:23]

Hope this explains to you the concept of salvation and why still deeds are counted and important.

Supreme said:
1) Is there any evidence bar Islamic sources that the Kaaba as we know it today was built by Abraham? Or any third party sources that confirm the Black Stone in the Kaaba was in the original Kaaba?
2) Is there a great respect in Islam for teachers (of any subject)?
3) How is Islam's attitude to modern technology or science? Are there any major Islamic factions opposed to these things?

1) bar Islamic sources? You're on your own then.
2) Teachers of Islamic sciences have the highest of respect and considered "Inheritors of prophets" if they have sufficient knowledge, and earn a status and rewards for their knowledge. Teachers of worldly knowledge that are useful to people are equally respected. Teachers of useless matters are condemned for wasting their and people's time.
3) Islam has used scientific references and referred to scientific discoveries in showing the truth of its message, it has no qualms against science or using beneficial modern technology. No there are no opposing factions, not even within deviated sects.
 
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