Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Hugo]

God either exists or he doesn't, we are not going back to atheism when here discussing religion.. However, God should be at least in keeping with the definition of the terms which doesn't conform to my particular idea of God, God by his very definition should exist beyond the human reductionist approach, it isn't Islam that reduces god to the lowest common denominator and renders him meek worst yet-dead!

Then tell me how I can know God exists, or to use the scientific method, tell me a way in which his existence might be falsified? All we know about God is found in the Bible and there is nothing new in the Qu'ran. Islam sadly does reduce God to the small, why would the God who made the immeasurable vastness of eternity, created the intricate and beautiful laws of nature that holds the Universes together write in a book that you say existed before even time began, bother to put into it that a man may marry his adopted sons ex wife?

Yes of course the websites you frequent are filled with drivel you all to frequently spew out here and you have had several miserable attempts to prove the Bible in error, you couldn't carry them through for obvious reasons. Not the case with the Qu'ran is it? I mean even someone in grade school can browse through it and be slapped left and right with chronological errors, illogical events, and disgraceful descriptions, obvious copies of stories found elsewhere .. I mean for starters who was the first Muslim, was it Adam, Abraham, Moses ...

I like the idea of looking at Qu'ranic variant readings and lets add contradiction as well - if the Moderators will allow it I will create one?

 

[Hugo]

Michael Hart has the following to say in his book “The Hundred” by the way Michael Hart was a Christian and he accepted Muhammad to be the # 1 person in his book of 100 most influential personalities)

So Michael Hart is right - have a look in the list you refer to and you will also find Hitler and Stalin

It was Pauls innovations which were spread among the Pagans of Rome, who were very impressed by the Heavenly Religion.... while Jesus (a.s) clearly had told not to preach it to Non Jews, as this Message was not for all mankind...

Paul only went to Rome at the very end of his ministry and he was imprisoned there and probably executed there as well. Jesus said according to Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

.....also none of the writers of the four so-called authentic gospels — i.e., Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John — ever met with the prophet Jesus himself. These gospels were written between 70 C.E and 115 C.E. but their earliest available manuscripts date back to the fourth century C.E, making their authenticity rather dubious.

It is best if you get your facts right as there are fragments as early as 70AD and complete NT dated around 300AD

 

[جوري]

Then tell me how I can know God exists,

Don't pose yourself as a christian and then ask for proof of God on a thread unrelated to the matter!

or to use the scientific method, tell me a way in which his existence might be falsified?

Well if you know something about the scientific method, you'd know that you can't set out to prove something, you can either reject it or fail to reject, this again has nothing to do with the thread.. it is a matter of common sense which is apparently lacking in your end!

All we know about God is found in the Bible and there is nothing new in the Qu'ran.

Anyone can arrive to the truth of God, the same way Abraham did, the same way Muhammad did whilst raised amongst pagan with no books.. God is what goes with nature, and fitrah:
O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you. Hadith Qudsi..
What you see or don't see is inconsequential otherwise.. I find you to have no credibility, none whatsoever!

Islam sadly does reduce God to the small, why would the God who made the immeasurable vastness of eternity, created the intricate and beautiful laws of nature that holds the Universes together write in a book that you say existed before even time began, bother to put into it that a man may marry his adopted sons ex wife?

The Quran covers all facets of man's life whether to do with nature, marriage, inheritance, adoption, the cosmological universe, the creation of man, lessons of old, poetic eloquence.. there is nothing in the Quran that hasn't been covered or has its foundation set so that we have a complete, political, social, economic, spiritual system to the very end of days.. and that is in fact what I'd expect from a sound religion to leave nothing to chance but to guide through every aspect of man's life!

I like the idea of looking at Qu'ranic variant readings and lets add contradiction as well - if the Moderators will allow it I will create one?

I believe you have had a carte blanche so far, and raised the topic time and again and faltered more times where a rational human being would have had the good sense to walk away after such public humiliations .. I'll give you that I admire your ability to take several slaps in the face, regroup and re-pose the same questions again.. by all means I am sure we'll all look forward to your ibn warraq thesis!

all the best

 

[syed_z]

It seems obvious that the Gospels that tell the story of Jesus could hardly have been written before he died? One cannot reconcile these two views since there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that there was anything else except the Gospels as we now them and if the Muslim position is that Jesus 'brought' them then where are they or is your, and that of Mohammed's faith here completely blind? One has to remember that the Gospels as we have them today were available fully long before the time of Islam's prophet so if as you say God preserved the Qu'ran did he forget about the Injeel?

Can you tell us how you will do this? It is a principle in science that we need to falsify. That is we need to state a way that in principle it would be possible to falsify a claim. This applies to any writing, including those that claims to be supernatural - so how would you go about falsifying the claim that the Qu'ran is God given? If you cannot find a way then what we are dealing with might or might not be true - we cannot tell.

This is pure nonsense. We ONLY have the Biblical accounts and they show this statement to be false on every point.


How do you know this and where are these 'few verses' - why does anyone invent this stuff?

You people follow Paul... Not Jesus (Peace be upon him)


The concept of the Trinity was established by people after Jesus (pbuh) left this World. This concept appealed very much to the Roman Pagan civilization, who had been worshiping Idols for past many years. Before Christianity as declared by the State at the Council of Nicea 325 AD, there were Fifty Gospels in circulation out of which 4 were selected as Gospels which would be accepted by the Church.


Concept of Trinity...

Formerly, all the Nazarites held the belief of Tawhîd (Unity of Allah) and observed most of the principles in the Torah. Later on when Pagan Romans mixed with the early followers of Jesus (a.s) they mixed their own mythologies in Christianity. It was sometime around the year 300 AD when Arius of Alexandria proclaimed the
belief of Unity and announced that the doctrine of the Trinity was wrong and void. Before the Council took place, there was much fighting which had taken place between Unitarians and Trinitarians. In the (first) Nicene council convened by Constantine the Great in 325, belief in the Unity was rejected and Arius was excommunicated.


The early followers of Jesus (a.s) knew very well that Unity of Allah is the real Message of Jesus. After Jesus (a.s) left, the Gospels which were translated from the Original Language Armaic in to Greek , was done by translators of whom there is no information what so ever. The 1st 4 Gospels were written after Isa (a.s) but they were written in original Language, Armaic, however there is NO RECORD of how they were translated in to Greek.. Jesus never Spoke Greek !! Muhammad (saw) spoke Arabic....who did the translation ?..... Hugo talks about Quran ?? He doesn't even know that we have even the Hadith literature way better and in a specialized way preserved than the Gospels.... for which InshAAllah i can prove....

 

[جوري]

You people follow Paul... Not Jesus (Peace be upon him)

Mr. Hugo is still to establish for us who is god's true and first son as per his bible before he moves on to other endeavors or to establish some semblance of credibility to this book he holds with some esteem!

 

[Hugo]

Anyone can arrive to the truth of God, the same way Abraham did, the same way Muhammad did whilst raised amongst pagan with no books.. God is what goes with nature, and fitrah:

Well, I am anyone, so fine, then I am totally happy that I have arrived at Christian truth through faith just like Abraham did..

The Quran covers all facets of man's life whether to do with nature, marriage, inheritance, adoption, the cosmological universe, the creation of man, lessons of old, poetic eloquence.. there is nothing in the Quran that hasn't been covered or has its foundation set so that we have a complete, political, social, economic, spiritual system to the very end of days.. and that is in fact what I'd expect from a sound religion to leave nothing to chance but to guide through every aspect of man's life!

This this is a logical absurdity for several reasons: we do not know what might turn up in the future so we cannot know that it covers everything, anything you say is there is an interpenetration, there is nothing there that is not found elsewhere except oddities such as the prophet may marry his adopted sons ex wife. This kind of interpretive view locks you into stagnation because you cannot even let yourself imagine another interpretation other than those made in the 11 the century - why do you think that there was practically zero progress in the Muslim empires for nearly a 1,000 years? Have you ever bothered to read people like Sayyid Jamal al-Din Afghani or Muhammad Abduh?

 

[syed_z]

Does Hugo know what Gospel of Barnabas Is ?? I don't think many Muslim Brothers and Sisters know either....

Barnabas was the ONLY Disciple of Jesus who had met Jesus (a.s)... his Gospel was taken away and termed as apocryphal.


The Gospel of Barnabas was among the books that were banned in 325 C.E by the Nicean Council. It was forbidden by the Decree of the Western Churches in 382 C.E ,it was again banned by Pope Innocent in 465 C.E, and then by the Glasian Decree in 496 C.E. To this day, Christian authorities refuse to accept the Gospel of Barnabas as authentic, despite striking similarities between this Gospel and the documents discovered in 1947 in the caves of Qumran, popularly called the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is because the Gospel of Barnabas proclaims absolute Divine Unity, criticizes the pagan innovations of St. Paul, declares the truth about the myth of Crucifixion and and, above all, contains unambiguous prophecies regarding the advent of Prophet Mohammad (SAW), all of which is enough to destroy the very foundations of the Christian faith as it exists today.


However, any unbiased comparative study of the New Testament, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Gospel of Barnabas is bound to reveal that this gospel is the correct and genuine account of the life and teachings of Prophet Isa (AS), notwithstanding the flimsy objections being raised by the Christians.

..in other Words, Gospel of Barnabas also verifies what Quran says about Allah (swt), Muhammad (saw) and clears Jesus (a.s) of all false allegations.


Concept of Trinity...

The earliest references to be found about Concept of Trinity or Divine Son Ship of Jesus (a.s), evidence was to be found in the writings of St Paul and NOT before, and there is no proof that Jesus Himself said that, and they were adopted by the Council in 325 Ad.

 

[جوري]

Well, I am anyone, so fine, then I am totally happy that I have arrived at Christian truth through faith just like Abraham did.[/COLOR].

Did Abraham call upon Jesus? In fact Christianity is so monolithic in its beliefs that no one who ponders creation would ever come up with such a contorted religion of dying mangods.

This this is a logical absurdity for several reasons: we do not know what might turn up in the future so we cannot know that it covers everything, anything you say is there is an interpenetration, there is nothing there that is not found elsewhere except oddities such as the prophet may marry his adopted sons ex wife. This kind of interpretive view locks you into stagnation because you cannot even let yourself imagine another interpretation other than those made in the 11 the century - why do you think that there was practically zero progress in the Muslim empires for nearly a 1,000 years? Have you ever bothered to read people like Sayyid Jamal al-Din Afghani or Muhammad Abduh?

The only absurdity here is your inability to understand what having a solid foundation means for the future.. When you go to medical school or engineering school, are you able to predict what diseases will arise 600 hundred years from now, or how architecture will be in the future or will you always have the ability and foundation to deal with whatever the future brings?
As for progress, you must live in a bubble, Muslims are very successful abroad as they are domestically, it is a matter of geopolitical conditions rather than a religious one.. more science comes out of Iran than the U.S, so tells us your western sources!
http://www.newscientist.com/article...fastest-scientific-growth-of-any-country.html

and Muslims fare better in the west than the natives, so tells us the government consensus..

btw how was that progress working out for the west when not 200 years ago a man was called a quack for making a connection between washing his hands and reducing the rate of infection by his other medical colleagues...

Try to come out of the cesspool from whence you get your info. you might finally be able to see what it is that others see wrong with you!

all the best

 

[syed_z]

Well, I am anyone, so fine, then I am totally happy that I have arrived at Christian truth through faith just like Abraham did..


This this is a logical absurdity for several reasons: we do not know what might turn up in the future so we cannot know that it covers everything, anything you say is there is an interpenetration, there is nothing there that is not found elsewhere except oddities such as the prophet may marry his adopted sons ex wife. This kind of interpretive view locks you into stagnation because you cannot even let yourself imagine another interpretation other than those made in the 11 the century - why do you think that there was practically zero progress in the Muslim empires for nearly a 1,000 years? Have you ever bothered to read people like Sayyid Jamal al-Din Afghani or Muhammad Abduh?

Do you know you worship the Sun of God and NOT the Son of God on a SUNDAY... ?

 

[جوري]

Do you know you worship the Sun of God and NOT the Son of God on a SUNDAY... ?

in fact they worship satan for he too was the son of god according to their book!

 

[syed_z]

in fact they worship satan for he too was the son of god according to their book!

where does it say that... in their Book ?

and i think there are many Christians who are Innocent of What Hugo talks and how he talks about Islam... so my point of view is to tell the truth... however i know many Christians do NOT want to worship the Satan, they worship God...

 

[جوري]

where does it say that... in their Book ?

and i think there are many Christians who are Innocent of What Hugo talks and how he talks about Islam... so my point of view is to tell the truth... however i know many Christians do NOT want to worship the Satan, they worship God...

well they worship the 'son of god' as per their book god had many sons and first born, and satan was one of them, I have posted it on the previous page, but here it is again:

Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38
or?
Israel is my son, even my firstborn." II Samuel 7:14 and I Chronicles 22:10: "...and he shall be my son (Solomon)." Jeremiah 31:9: "

...and Ephraim is my firstborn." Also, Psalm 2:7.

The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. -- Job 2:1

 

[Zafran]

absurd to think that the muslims were stagant for 1000 years - lets wipe out the Ottomans, Mamelukes and Mughals - no cities were bulit no progress happend they just didnt happen did they. They gave nothing to the world. Lets forget about them just the way western civ likes to forget about christainty.

 

[syed_z]

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. -- Job 2:1

Well sister.. i see that Israel and jesus and Moses , all were called Sons of God because we are all Children of God as not biologically, as the Christians think or their Church thinks, but as brother in Humanity and God referring all as Sons is not literal....

Also Satan, does not refer to as the Son, he is being differentiated from the sons of God.... he is not being talked about as being one of the Sons...

Also Sister... if you don't mind... Bible is the Word of God and we as Muslim have to respect as much as we can.... and not say anything wrong... YES point out the error but make sure whatever we interpret we should know what we're saying because those were also Words of our God/Allah....



...let not anger swerve you from Justice...

 

[جوري]

Well sister.. i see that Israel and jesus and Moses , all were called Sons of God because we are all Children of God as not biologically, as the Christians think or their Church thinks, but as brother in Humanity and God referring all as Sons is not literal....

Also Satan, does not refer to as the Son, he is being differentiated from the sons of God.... he is not being talked about as being one of the Sons...

Also Sister... if you don't mind... Bible is the Word of God and we as Muslim have to respect as much as we can.... and not say anything wrong... YES point out the error but make sure whatever we interpret we should know what we're saying because those were also Words of our God/Allah....



...let not anger swerve you from Justice...

The bible isn't the word of God, where would you get that idea?

2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

amongst other verses on the matter.. God has no sons, I am not really sure why you are making excuses for their corruption?

Results مَا لَكُمْ لَا تَرْجُونَ لِلَّهِ وَقَارًا [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{13}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 71:13] What aileth you that ye hope not toward Allah for dignity[/SIZE]

It is justice and reverence that motivates me not anger!

 

[جوري]

absurd to think that the muslims were stagant for 1000 years - lets wipe out the Ottomans, Mamelukes and Mughals - no cities were bulit no progress happend they just didnt happen did they. They gave nothing to the world. Lets forget about them just the way western civ likes to forget about christainty.

he has also conveniently ignored the articles on the previous page that speak of modern science coming more out of the Muslim world than it does out of the west, but we shouldn't look to the ignorant for validation.. the dark ages are all they have and what they'd like to keep..

 

[syed_z]

The bible isn't the word of God, where would you get that idea?

2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

amongst other verses on the matter.. God has no sons, I am not really sure why you are making excuses for their corruption?

Results مَا لَكُمْ لَا تَرْجُونَ لِلَّهِ وَقَارًا [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{13}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 71:13] What aileth you that ye hope not toward Allah for dignity[/SIZE]

It is justice and reverence that motivates me not anger!

Interesting sister...how much have you read the Quran ?


(2:4) who believe in the Book We have sent down to you (i.e. the Qur'an) and in the Books sent down before you, and firmly believe in the Hereafter.

The Bible is corrupted however NOT ALL is corrupted... it still mentions the Prophecies of Muhammad (Saw) arrival ? Do you know that ?

We as Muslims are supposed to believe in all that was revealed before Prophet Muhammad (saw).... do you know you cannot be A Muslim if you did not believe in the Previous Scriptures ???

 

[جوري]

Interesting sister...how much have you read the Quran ?

al7mdlillah I have a large chunk of it memorized and Arabic is my mother tongue how about you?

(2:4) who believe in the Book We have sent down to you (i.e. the Qur'an) and in the Books sent down before you, and firmly believe in the Hereafter.

The injil and the Torah in existence today have nothing to do with the Injil and the Torah that Allah swt speaks of in the Quran!
Do you believe for instance that prophet lut slept with his daughters after being drunk? that is what the bible says amongst other things equally abominable.

The Bible is corrupted however NOT ALL is corrupted... it still mentions the Prophecies of Muhammad (Saw) arrival ? Do you know that ?

Yeah, let the christians tell you about that one!
problem is how do you sort through that which is sound and that which is corrupted? and why would you if Allah swt has given you the Furqan? the criterion to end all disputation!

We as Muslims are supposed to believe in all that was revealed before Prophet Muhammad (saw).... do you know you cannot be A Muslim if you did not believe in the Previous Scriptures ???

Who said that I don't believe in what was revealed before? Do you know that you can't be a Muslim and believe in the blasphemous things that bible says of God?

 

[Asiyah3]

Well sister.. i see that Israel and jesus and Moses , all were called Sons of God because we are all Children of God as not biologically, as the Christians think or their Church thinks, but as brother in Humanity and God referring all as Sons is not literal....

We are in no way children of God not literally nor metaphorically.

Allah is one.

 

[syed_z]

2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

this Verse that you have referred to sister... is talking about the interpolations they have done with their hands... NOT THE whole Book itself is written by them! No! For that you need proof that WHOLE bible is wrong or corrupted.... Even the European Scholars have accepted that Bible has many interpolations , specially the old and new testament both, but it is not ALL corrupted....


rather Quran tells us how to address the People of the Scriptures (Bible)...


29:46) Argue not with the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) except in the fairest manner, unless it be those of them that are utterly unjust. Say to them: “We believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. One is our God and your God; and we are those who submit ourselves to Him.”


1st of all we are not supposed to deal with them through unfair means.... second... the God is telling Muslims "Qul" i.e SAY We Believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to You. Our God is the same as yours !.... When Allah (swt) says SAY that is we have to believe in their Scriptures.... and the reason why Muhammad (saw) once told us that NOT to exceed the limit in arguing lest we say anything wrong that might make us fall in to Sin, because there are still words of God in them....


...Unless it be those who are Unjust.... refers to characters like Hugo... who argue to create mischief... so even with them argue in a manner which will not make you fall in to sin, because their scriptures have Words of God.... so point out the errors, and im sure you can find plenty because there are many errors in the Bible and many scholars have written books on them like Dr Zakir Naik... make sure you have their books before you say anything about their books....