Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

[aadil77]

Well, I have found the Bible to be very reliable. The fact that it sometimes records unpleasant details testifies to the Bible's honesty -- nothing is hidden. The account of Lut and his daughters is important because it shows the relationship of the Israelites to Lut's descendants, the Ammonites and Moabites, and explains God's dealings with these nations. Ruth was a Moabite her descendants included King David and Jesus. Lut's wife was, of course, dead when the incident happened. Turned into a pillar of salt.

What point are you making here? The Bible doesn't say that Lut was a prophet so I have no reason to believe that he was. And the Qur'an doesn't deny that incest took place anyway. Does any hadith comment on this matter?

'unpleasent details' only testify to its corruption and the fact that it is no longer the revelation of god, but a mixture with the word of man - the Quran or hadith do not need to deny that a Prophet of god could gett drunk and commit incest - its common sense.

The Quran is not all about denying various deviant beliefs introduced by man, the brief mentions of previous prophets are only there as examples to mankind, there is alot more that is revealed in the Quran than stories that are shared with the bible.

 

[aadil77]

The Bible calls Jesus, Adam, angels and others sons of God. It also says that Adam was created from the dust of the ground. So obviously these "sons" were not begotten in the manner that humans beget children. But they were given life by God so in that sense he is their Father.

In this sense even Satan is the 'son' of god as he was not begotten

We are given life by god, it doesn't make us His literal 'sons' or Him our literal 'father', give up these fairytales

 

[tango92]

Well, I have found the Bible to be very reliable.

account for the contradictions! you cannot reconcile this statement with mistakes admitted to by your own scholars.

The fact that it sometimes records unpleasant details testifies to the Bible's honesty -- nothing is hidden.

so u admit biblical stories go against your natural inclinations towards God? well done, its a start.

and your right, "nothing is hidden" God has not hidden any defect in your bible:statisfie

 

[Grace Seeker]

'unpleasent details' only testify to its corruption and the fact that it is no longer the revelation of god, but a mixture with the word of man - the Quran or hadith do not need to deny that a Prophet of god could gett drunk and commit incest - its common sense.

I disagree with Hiroshi on at least one major point of theology, but I do agree with his point on the "unpleasant details". I find life to be messy. I find that people live very convoluted lives. And I don't believe that God was restricted to using only perfect people with no "unpleasant details" to reveal himself to humankind. What you see as corruption being proved by the existence of "unpleasant details" in the lives of prophets, I see as honesty. And the lack of these things within Islamic tradition strikes me as a kind of whitewashing of the truth. Hence, to the lack of these details in Islam becomes evidence to me of corruption in the assimilation of Hebraic stories into Islam.

 

[M.I.A.]

Islam the only religion

All the Prophets were Muslims,

they all worshipped the one God,

remembered the Day of Judgement, believed in Paradise and Hell,

Sacrificed animals

Fasted

Bowed down in prayer (which even Prophet Jesus peace be upon him had done).

AS stated in the "Collapse of these countries" thread

Allah always sends a Prophet to convey the message, all the messages are the same to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell.

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was sent, as obviously Christianity could not tell the Arabs to repent as they were committing idol worship and the Jews were not remembering the next world. Actually they were happy to live with idol worshippers, they did not tell idol worshippers to repent.

1. The Christians/Jews say that we have copied off their texts, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was illiterate, and NO ONE at the time accused him of copying off the Jews and the Christians.

2. Why shouldn't Allah tell us of the stories of the Prophets Ibrahim, Noah, Lut peace be upon them etc? They belong to him. Why are the Christians complaining anyway, they are committing idol worship. Even Allah has said the best people to lay clam to Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him are the ones that follow after him more;-

-we worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and Paradise and Hell (which the Christians are committing idol worship and the Jews are leaving out Hell)

-we sacrifice as he did,

-we fast,

- the Kaaba in Mecca is actually built by Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him.

3. Also how did we get the story of King Solomon peace be upon him controlling the winds and the Jinn? As this was now recently found out to be left out of the bible.

4. Obviously if it was left to the Christians and the Jews, they would never have succeeded in finishing idol worship and lewd and drunk behaviour in the middle east. Actually they had plenty of time to prove themselves, so why did they not sort out idol worship before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him had arrived? They cannot say that we copied off them, as we would never have been successful in sorting out idol worship.

5. Islam is doing what Christianity and Judaism could not do, tell people to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, in Paradise and Hell. They are not going to get a Prophet now, Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will only be coming AFTER these countries have finished (which even the Christians have agreed to).

Islam has been sufficient to teach the whole world, even the Christians have accepted that "God" has been talked about more because of Islam. They are responding back to Muslims as people used to do aforetime, by torturing, and even the masses at the time of Pharoah turned a blind eye, and even though the public knew that Bush supported torture, they still voted for him etc.

6. If Islam was not in this world, its not hard to see that the Christians and the Jews would have failed talking about Allah, remembering the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. They would have just build more holiday resorts in the Middle East etc. So Islam is successful.

7. People can argue why Islam is successful is because we had supported the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. But the

- Christians failed to protect the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him when they tried to kill him. As they were more afraid of the authorities then Allah. Even though he did a lot for people, and created a bird out of clay and by Allah's permission it came alive. People were still more afraid of -the authorities.

At least if they Muslims were there, we would have fought for Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, and he will be having our support when he comes back.

-the Jews were treating the Prophets to help them live in this world, and did on their own records irritated the Prophet Moses peace be upon him. They even after all that Allah had done for them, took to worshipping the cow idol. They are blaming Prophet Aaron peace be upon him, just to try and make themselves look better. But the fact is he never told people to worship the cow idol, as stated in the Quran. Also there is no excuse to idol worship. It was a sinful act. They even told the Prophet Moses peace be upon him to fight for them so they could enter the town so he left them to wander. Even they treated King David peace be upon him poorly as they tried to oust him as leader.

8. All the Prophets submitted to Allah's will, they never changed the message of Allah. Which clearly the Christians and the Jews have done;-

-Why are not the Christians worshipping the one God? As did Prophet Noah, Lut, David, Jesus, Solomon peace be upon them etc

-Why are not the Jews mentioning Hell? As did Prophets Noah, Lut, David, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Solomon peace be upon them etc

-Why aren't they all sacrificing animals (the Jews say they will later on, but still it makes what they are eating today unlawful)

-The Jews said they are to test Prophets (which is a terrible thing to say as they are the best), who are they to test Prophets? If that is the case why don't they tell everyone how they tested Prophet Moses peace be upon him? How did they test King David peace be upon him etc

-the Jews are willing to accept females to be "Prophetesses" ie Sarah. But they have a hard time accepting Prophets Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon him? What did she do anyway preach the message? No.

9. We Muslims as above are following after the Prophets and the Jews and the Christians have corrupted themselves. We are closer to all the Prophets then they will ever be for their idol worship and rejecting Hell and holding on to the life of this world.

10. Miracles they ask for, they say they will only believe if a Prophet has performed a miracle, if that was the case then why are they corrupt??? Why are they not all believers then, and now?? If miracles truly worked, then why did they take the cow idol to worship when Prophet Moses peace be upon him was away? After the parting of the red sea, the plagues of Egypt??

The magicians at Pharoah's court did a better job then the Jews who took to cow idol worship. The magicians feared Allah and did not beg Pharaoh for leniency, they stood their ground and had their hands and feet chopped off from alternative sides, and made it to Paradise.

The Jews treat their test of endurance, when actually they were to repent as they had been clearly been treating Prophets poorly.

11. The Christians claim that the Prophets are Christians when;-

Prophet Noah peace be upon him would NOT be accepting the Christians for their idol worship,

Prophet Moses peace be upon him would NOT be accepting the Christians for their idol worship. etc

you had me until this point.
dont assume, the very fact that both those peoples are mentioned in the quran and are still present to this day is a sign. im sure there were people who were neither jew nor christian who apposed the prophet peace and blessings be upon him.
as for idol worship, idols come and go truth lasts longer. idols break themselves, at least thats how iv seen it.

 

[Hiroshi]

obviously not, we don't believe that Sarah was his half sister

It isn't very important but I found this curious hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...rces/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/034.sbt.html

Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 420 says:
So, the king sent for Abraham and asked, 'O Abraham! Who is this lady accompanying you?' Abraham replied, 'She is my sister (i.e. in religion).'

Do you believe that Abraham was stating that Sarah was his sister in religion?

 

[aadil77]

It isn't very important but I found this curious hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...rces/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/034.sbt.html

Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 420 says:
So, the king sent for Abraham and asked, 'O Abraham! Who is this lady accompanying you?' Abraham replied, 'She is my sister (i.e. in religion).'

Do you believe that Abraham was stating that Sarah was his sister in religion?

Ofcourse, I think by reading the whole hadith its fairly obvious:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Prophet Abraham emigrated with Sarah and entered a village where there was a king or a tyrant. (The king) was told that Abraham had entered (the village) accompanied by a woman who was one of the most charming women. So, the king sent for Abraham and asked, 'O Abraham! Who is this lady accompanying you?' Abraham replied, 'She is my sister (i.e. in religion).' Then Abraham returned to her and said, 'Do not contradict my statement, for I have informed them that you are my sister. By Allah, there are no true believers on this land except you and I.' Then Abraham sent her to the king. When the king got to her, she got up and performed ablution, prayed and said, 'O Allah! If I have believed in You and Your Apostle, and have saved my private parts from everybody except my husband, then please do not let this pagan overpower me.' On that the king fell in a mood of agitation and started moving his legs. Seeing the condition of the king, Sarah said, 'O Allah! If he should die, the people will say that I have killed him.' The king regained his power, and proceeded towards her but she got up again and performed ablution, prayed and said, 'O Allah! If I have believed in You and Your Apostle and have kept my private parts safe from all except my husband, then please do not let this pagan overpower me.' The king again fell in a mood of agitation and started moving his legs. On seeing that state of the king, Sarah said, 'O Allah! If he should die, the people will say that I have killed him.' The king got either two or three attacks, and after recovering from the last attack he said, 'By Allah! You have sent a satan to me. Take her to Abraham and give her Ajar.' So she came back to Abraham and said, 'Allah humiliated the pagan and gave us a slavegirl for service." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 420)

here's another hadith regarding this;

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasions. Twice for the Sake of Allah when he said, "I am sick," and he said, "(I have not done this but) the big idol has done it." The (third was) that while Abraham and Sarah (his wife) were going (on a journey) they passed by (the territory of) a tyrant. Someone said to the tyrant, "This man (i.e. Abraham) is accompanied by a very charming lady." So, he sent for Abraham and asked him about Sarah saying, "Who is this lady?" Abraham said, "She is my sister." Abraham went to Sarah and said, "O Sarah! There are no believers on the surface of the earth except you and I. This man asked me about you and I have told him that you are my sister, so don't contradict my statement." The tyrant then called Sarah and when she went to him, he tried to take hold of her with his hand, but (his hand got stiff and) he was confounded. He asked Sarah. "Pray to Allah for me, and I shall not harm you." So Sarah asked Allah to cure him and he got cured. He tried to take hold of her for the second time, but (his hand got as stiff as or stiffer than before and) was more confounded. He again requested Sarah, "Pray to Allah for me, and I will not harm you." Sarah asked Allah again and he became all right. He then called one of his guards (who had brought her) and said, "You have not brought me a human being but have brought me a devil." The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. Sarah came back (to Abraham) while he was praying. Abraham, gesturing with his hand, asked, "What has happened?" She replied, "Allah has spoiled the evil plot of the infidel (or immoral person) and gave me Hajar for service." (Abu Huraira then addressed his listeners saying, "That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar's son)." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578)

 

[tango92]

I disagree with Hiroshi on at least one major point of theology, but I do agree with his point on the "unpleasant details". I find life to be messy. I find that people live very convoluted lives. And I don't believe that God was restricted to using only perfect people with no "unpleasant details" to reveal himself to humankind. What you see as corruption being proved by the existence of "unpleasant details" in the lives of prophets, I see as honesty. And the lack of these things within Islamic tradition strikes me as a kind of whitewashing of the truth. Hence, to the lack of these details in Islam becomes evidence to me of corruption in the assimilation of Hebraic stories into Islam.

if god is perfect his message is perfect, end of discussion.

i see now how you brainwash your followers into thinking its ok to commit sin and god will forgive them anyway. after all if the best of your people committed the worst crimes then an average joe can get away with pretty much whatever. he is only following the example that god gave right?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ofcourse, I think by reading the whole hadith its fairly obvious:

What makes it obvious? The parenthetical comments?


And this leads me to ask something I've often wondered about the translations of the Qur'an I read. Are the parenthetical comments really a part of the translation of the verse or are they adding a human interpretation to that translation? Example:

And when We did appoint for Moses forty nights (of solitude), and then ye chose the calf, when he had gone from you, and were wrong-doers.

(Al-Baqara 2:51, Pickthal translation)

Why does Pickthal add the parenthetical comment "of solitude"? Does the Arabic really express that? If so, why not just write it in the translation without the use of parentheses? If not, why add the parenthetical comment at all?

 

[Grace Seeker]

if god is perfect his message is perfect, end of discussion.

I would agree with that. But it does not follow that God's servants would therefore be perfect. And if they are imperfect, their delivery of his perfect message may nonetheless also be imperfect.

i see now how you brainwash your followers into thinking its ok to commit sin and god will forgive them anyway. after all if the best of your people committed the worst crimes then an average joe can get away with pretty much whatever. he is only following the example that god gave right?

No. Your view of Christian ethics is incorrect. We don't think it is OK to sin. We are called to do better than those who have gone before us. The example God gives us is the perfect life lived by Jesus. And he bids us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.

 

[tango92]

I would agree with that. But it does not follow that God's servants would therefore be perfect. And if they are imperfect, their delivery of his perfect message may nonetheless also be imperfect.


i agree Gods servants would not be perfect (but err i dont consider them to be the worst of people like the bible shows). yet if the message contains imperfections we contradict our starting premise which is "gods message is perfect". to me it seems God is disowning the bible. and if god is the inspiration of the message then the messenger becomes redundant.

No. Your view of Christian ethics is incorrect. We don't think it is OK to sin. We are called to do better than those who have gone before us. The example God gives us is the perfect life lived by Jesus. And he bids us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.

i dont recall jesus worshipping himself, do you?

 

[Hugo]

if god is perfect his message is perfect, end of discussion.

This might be true but to make it so requires that we look at his message and see its perfection. So can you explain what is perfect about Q9:5 with its command to slay the isolators and one assumes that you will follow this 'perfect' message and start slaying me and my family - end of discussion? I can see now how brainwashed you must be into thinking that killing is no sin and indeed God will reward you since you follow his perfect message.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

The fact is a Prophet is meant to be an example for there people, My Q to a Christian would be do you believe Prophets existed, and if so could you mention names of prophets, and mention there jobs, what "Prophets" are exactly meant to do?
It would let one understand the truth about the faith more. . .

Insha`Allaah that could be a positive start. . . .

 

[Hugo]

The fact is a Prophet is meant to be an example for there people, My Q to a Christian would be do you believe Prophets existed, and if so could you mention names of prophets, and mention there jobs, what "Prophets" are exactly meant to do?

You have invented a definition here but in Christian circles the terms is understood broadly in two ways. The first is a prophet my 'foretell' the future and in the Bible this is often expressed as warnings usually associated with falling away from the faith. Secondly, a prophet may simply explain or 'forth-tell' the message and therefore call people to God. So in the first sense we would think of someone like Isaiah or Jeremiah as prophets and in the second sense anyone can be a prophet. The requirements, if that is the right word, is that for His own best reasons God calls someone and usually they were men and fallible like any mean or women. No Christian would subscribe to the Muslim notion that prophets are in some way perfect and there is no evidence that they were from the Bible.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Peace, мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє.

How would you prove this?

Well Brother Aadill seems to have summed it for you inshaAllaah. . . .

Every Prophet is a example for every nation they were sent to, as a prophet is meant to convey the message of god to his people so in this case they were sent by God allmighty, but in the bible they do not seem to be good examples, and as you mentioned you dont even believe Lut/Lott was even a messenger as muslims do! But according to the bible he commited sins and what not, Quraan confirms he didnt commit such an act as already posted.

Jesus Pbuh was mistaken to be God when in truth he was not as Quraan corrects that he was not and nor was he crucified for Allaah protected him from such a death! Jesus also worships God according to many verses in the bible and calls upon God, God calling upon god?, he prays, he put his forehead on the ground, his mother Mary/Maryam (As) also worshipped God, since the main belief in christianity is that Jesus is god (May God forbid), then Mary/Maryam is worshipping her son?

Anyways the bible says Abraham (as) married his sister, where in the Quraan it corrects it that he did NOT.
It corrects the lies that have been made against the Prophets, to believe this the book must be with many proofs.

As mentioned by a "members" in this thread God doesnt need to make his message perfect" But it does not follow that God's servants would therefore be perfect. And if they are imperfect, their delivery of his perfect message may nonetheless also be imperfect."

That statement is very dangerous, if gods message isnt perfect, that makes God imperfect also? Are you saying God cannot send a "Perfect,crystal, clear" message? thats what you are saying, you seem to be placing God in a lower status. Doesnt really suprise me, coz God apparently Died for our sins anyway, therefore he can be imperfect (God Forbid), ive actually heard christians who say "well we can do whatever we like, coz "God" died for my sins, you can commit a sin, go kill people etc and your into heaven, you just need to love god. And no im not trying to offend nobody, but this is what your belief is! youve allready admitted Gods message is imperfect that itself proves the whole point and reason of Quraan correcting the bible. . .Uno like they say "Hate the sin and not the sinner" :-\

Again God is PERFECT, and he does what he wills but not what does not suit him, i mean the Lord where all he has to say is "Be" and it is, doesnt need to make himself a human and die doesnt make no sense, if you could try read up some of the attributes of God in Islaam maybe you shall realise what i mean when giving GOD Allmighty respect and honour him!

Allaah is All-Mercyful and All-Wise

Ps i apologise if i sounded a lil harsh, my intention is not to and nor have i been, i just may sound harsh, forgive me if do

Peace

 

[M.I.A.]

gods plan is infallable, it is not reliant on anybody this is a concept that if understood can form a firm basis of belief.
also dissosiating importance from ones self can further allow for understanding of how things usually pan out. are the scriptures the truth? well if you understand the laws written within them then the signs are easily manifest. obviously there is a whole branch of orgonised science to do with patterns and human observation of patterns, i think they sum it up as just "you see what you want to see"
but what do you attribute to your god?
how much of life is under gods control?
we say that god is the creator of the heavens and the earth,
he is the creator and we serve, weather we choose to or not.
this might be a contradiction to the first line of the post but i guess if you think about it long enough and open mindedly there is only room to grow.

we can only do as we are allowed, as with the prophets peace and blessings be upon them. moses peace and blessings be upon him was commanded to strike his staff and he did.
jesus peace and blessings be upon him told of how he could only do what he was commanded too do.
as for the prophet solomon peace and blessings be upon him, i cant even imagine! how subservant he was to allah swt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
some things to think about i guess.
and our prophet muhammed peace and blessings be upon him, he brought the final revalation unto mankind that will hold untill the day of judgement.

 

[Hugo]

Every Prophet is a example for every nation they were sent to, as a prophet is meant to convey the message of god to his people so in this case they were sent by God allmighty, but in the bible they do not seem to be good examples, and as you mentioned you dont even believe Lut/Lott was even a messenger as muslims do! But according to the bible he commited sins and what not, Quraan confirms he didnt commit such an act as already posted.

But all YOU are doing is INVENTING what a prophet does or is, so you are deciding what kind of person God can or cannot use and in so doing leaving God out of the equation. Lot is not regarded as a prophet and we have no writing from him and the Bible is very plain that his daughters God him drunk and they had sexual relations. If it is not true why would any one invent it and make their Holy book look a bit off and in any case we have manuscripts with this story that are at least 1,500 years older than any existing copy of the Qu'ran. If we consider the Qu'ran then there is only ONE witness to what it says so as a source its unreliable.

That statement is very dangerous, if gods message isnt perfect, that makes God imperfect also? Are you saying God cannot send a "Perfect,crystal, clear" message? thats what you are saying, you seem to be placing God in a lower status.

I think this does not make sense and as yet you have not explained how one can tell a perfect message from one that is not. You keep saying the Qu'ran corrects but logically there is no way to substantiate such a claim

 

[tango92]

This might be true but to make it so requires that we look at his message and see its perfection. So can you explain what is perfect about Q9:5 with its command to slay the isolators and one assumes that you will follow this 'perfect' message and start slaying me and my family - end of discussion? I can see now how brainwashed you must be into thinking that killing is no sin and indeed God will reward you since you follow his perfect message.

read the context, i can make anything say whatever i want to aswell. and believe me the muslims do not ignore any part of the scriture that makes them uncomfortable unlike u

 

[tango92]

I think this does not make sense and as yet you have not explained how one can tell a perfect message from one that is not. You keep saying the Qu'ran corrects but logically there is no way to substantiate such a claim

well for a start an imperfect message has contradictions. just like the bible.

But all YOU are doing is INVENTING what a prophet does or is, so you are deciding what kind of person God can or cannot use and in so doing leaving God out of the equation. Lot is not regarded as a prophet and we have no writing from him and the Bible is very plain that his daughters God him drunk and they had sexual relations. If it is not true why would any one invent it and make their Holy book look a bit off and in any case we have manuscripts with this story that are at least 1,500 years older than any existing copy of the Qu'ran. If we consider the Qu'ran then there is only ONE witness to what it says so as a source its unreliable.

funny guy, we are just reading our (miraculous) scripture from which we know what a prophet does and does not do. now the christians have invented many things, trinity, mangods and dying gods to name a few. which is attested to historically.

not to mention youve left God out of the picture when you claim he sends guidance but care little wether it was actually form him or not. as long as someone somewhere milleniums ago testified it was from god then that is enough. which is rather amusing yet sad.

 

[aadil77]

This might be true but to make it so requires that we look at his message and see its perfection. So can you explain what is perfect about Q9:5 with its command to slay the isolators and one assumes that you will follow this 'perfect' message and start slaying me and my family - end of discussion? I can see now how brainwashed you must be into thinking that killing is no sin and indeed God will reward you since you follow his perfect message.

hmm so you decided to refer to a verse then misinterperate it? two can play that game, except the verses in the bible are quite clear on the circumstances and the people that should be targetted

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134296465-repulsive-verses-bible.html

btw yes the message is perfect when we are told to fight against those who wage war on us, but I suppose to please you we should all become pacifists