Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

[Grace Seeker]

There is nothing left to interpret or spin with such definite adverbs like 'Only'

all the best

No spin. You have to read Jesus' story in its totality not just an isolated verse. But let's take just that one verse and ask a few questions of it: (1) Where was Jesus at the time he spoke these words? (2) To whom did Jesus say this? (3) How did he respond to her?

Answers:
(1) Outside of the land of Israel.
(2) A Canaanite woman.
(3) He met her need and granted her request.

As the Messiah, Jesus may have been sent to just the sheep of Israel, but his ministry extended well beyond just Israel. And later he would send his disciples to carry the message to all the world. Therefore, in view of these actions of Jesus, it is plainly fallacious to conclude that "any other addendum would be construed as anything but a contradiction to these alleged words of that same god."

Such a conclusion may correspond with your own particular prejudice regarding Jesus, as it fits within Islams view of Muhammad being the only prophet with a message for the entire world. But that conclusion just does no jive with the facts of Jesus' own life.

 

[جوري]

And later he would send his disciples to carry the message to all the world.

correction saul sent his disciples out to spread his brand of Christianity, so much for watching out for false prophets!

 

[Grace Seeker]

correction saul sent his disciples out to spread his brand of Christianity,

Correcting your correction. Jesus sent his disciples out. He sent them to all nations.

Matthew 28

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Luke 24

45Then he [Jesus] opened their [the disciples'] minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his [the Christ's] name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Acts 1

4On one occasion, while he [Jesus] was eating with them [his disciples], he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

so much for watching out for false prophets!

What is really false is that you keep pretending you know what is in the Bible. But clearly you don't know it as well as you think you do.

 

[جوري]

Correcting your correction. Jesus sent his disciples out. He sent them to all nations. You keep pretending you know what is in the Bible, but clearly you don't know it as well as you think you do.

If an invisible Jesus hovered upon a saul and let him do his bidding because his chosen disciples were inept at best (one of them forsaking him thrice before this god took his own life in a selfless act of immolation) then yeah I am with you-- to the rest of the thinking folks though, it is a clear act of a charlatan putting his pagan spin on a religion meant to make upright a select few!


How is the evangelism working these days, I meant to ask, I mean aside from us Muslims pointing out your blunders daily, are christians buying into this? I read there is an annual percentage drop throughout all of Europe at a rate of 1% a year.. Folks are asking questions and getting smarter for you biblical know it all, especially when caught with a foot in your mouth, as we have seen happen courtesy of Br. Yusuf


P.S nice pious forgeries btw..
all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

You can't stand to be proven wrong can you? So, instead of owning up to making a mistake because of a hasty statement like I did, you try to shift the focus.

Face it. You were wrong. You tried to correct my comment that Jesus sent disciples out to carry his message to all the world and assert that he didn't. Yet the evidence that he did is staring you right in the face and you still won't own your error.

 

[جوري]

You can't stand to be proven wrong can you? So, instead of owning up to making a mistake because of a hasty statement like I did, you try to shift the focus.

Face it. You were wrong. You tried to correct my comment that Jesus sent disciples out to carry his message to all the world and assert that he didn't. Yet the evidence that he did is staring you right in the face and you still won't own your error.

We have in fact had this conversation before oh graceful one, and I have shown you that the addendum is nothing more than a 16th c pious forgery, as with other pieces before it, one, two, three sources are never sufficient for you, truly you are as described in the Noble Quran,


إِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَابِّ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ الصُّمُّ الْبُكْمُ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ {22}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 8:22] Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense.

all the best
[/SIZE]

 

[Grace Seeker]

We have in fact had this conversation before oh graceful one, and I have shown you that the addendum is nothing more than a 16th c pious forgery,

By "the addendum" I presume you are speaking of the closing passage in Matthew. I can find no legitimate scholar to make such a claim. The text is included in manuscripts much older than the 16th century. Plus, I didn't give you just one passage, I gave you three different passages in which Jesus is reported to have said the same basic thing.

If I am deaf, is there a verse in the Qur'an that speaks to your blindness?

The ball is back in your court.

 

[جوري]

By "the addendum" I presume you are speaking of the closing passage in Matthew. I can find no legitimate scholar to make such a claim. The text is included in manuscripts much older than the 16th century. Plus, I didn't give you just one passage, I gave you three different passages in which Jesus is reported to have said the same basic thing.

If I am deaf, is there a verse in the Qur'an that speaks to your blindness?

The ball is back in your court.

No just the blindness of kaffir manworshippers.. go ahead and show me the original manuscript in Jesus' mother tongue and a proper chain of Isnad to your passages.

and try to reconcile that with the lies of your god, in one verse he is only sent to the jews and the next he changes his mind? one verse he doesn't want you to eat pigs, the next he does, one verse he wants you circumcised and next he doesn't.. how do you account for the fickleness of the christian god, that is if he is the same god of the OT?

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

show me the original manuscript in Jesus' mother tongue and a proper chain of Isnad to your passages.

If you doubt these verses as being accurate, then there is no reason for you to accept that Matthew 15:24 is accurate either.

 

[جوري]

If you doubt these verses as being accurate, then there is no reason for you to accept that Matthew 15:24 is accurate either.

I don't indeed know which parts of your bibles are true and which are fabricated, given of course that you can't produce an original manuscript or provide proper authorship, be that as it may, I would like you to reconcile all those oddities in your bible juxtaposed on contradictory passages from your bible, of course you are unable to do so.. yet adamantly claim you are worshiping the same god as other people of the book.

 

[aadil77]

We have in fact had this conversation before oh graceful one, and I have shown you that the addendum is nothing more than a 16th c pious forgery, as with other pieces before it, one, two, three sources are never sufficient for you, truly you are as described in the Noble Quran,


إِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَابِّ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ الصُّمُّ الْبُكْمُ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ {22}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 8:22] Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense.

all the best
[/SIZE]

;D that has to be one of my favourite verses

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't indeed know which parts of your bibles are true and which are fabricated, given of course that you can't produce an original manuscript or provide proper authorship, be that as it may, I would like you to reconcile all those oddities in your bible juxtaposed on contradictory passages from your bible, of course you are unable to do so.. yet adamantly claim you are worshiping the same god as other people of the book.

The point remains, that if, based on mistrust of the faithfulness of the text, you aren't willing to accept Jesus told his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations, then just as equally there is no basis for accepting that he ever said he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. The sources for accepting the one are equal with the source for accepting the other. They must be accepted or rejected together.

Once you decide which position are going to take with regard to them, vis-a-vis what is accepted, then we can discuss what you consider apparent contradictions. If you accept nothing, then there are no verses to even appear to be in contradiction with one another.

 

[جوري]

The point remains, that if, based on mistrust of the faithfulness of the text, you aren't willing to accept Jesus told his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations, then just as equally there is no basis for accepting that he ever said he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. The sources for accepting the one are equal with the source for accepting the other. They must be accepted or rejected together.

Once you decide which position are going to take with regard to them, vis-a-vis what is accepted, then we can discuss what you consider apparent contradictions. If you accept nothing, then there are no verses to even appear to be in contradiction with one another.

Again, how can anyone accept any position when the book contradicts itself? Do you want a laundry list of chronological, and textual errors (not to touch logic) so you'd end up with another public apology or do you have a twisted spin for everything?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Do you believe that Matthew 15:24 accurately reports what Jesus said? If you do, then learn to live with the fact that Matthew 28:19 has every bit as much support as Matthew 15:24 does. If you don't, then quit using it.

As for spin being spun over apparent contradictions, is Islam a religion of peace or war? One can find statements to both effect in the Qur'an. Is it Allah that has contradicted himself or Muhammad that can't keep the story straight? I guess we'll never know, as no one was is able to testify as to what Muhammad did or didn't originally hear, but Muhammad himself.

 

[جوري]

Do you believe that Matthew 15:24 accurately reports what Jesus said? If you do, then learn to live with the fact that Matthew 28:19 has every bit as much support as Matthew 15:24 does. If you don't, then quit using it.

Why would I quit using it, when it is so delicious to point out and see you struggle with forgeries, or contradictions to make sense of a quote that is so definitive!

As for spin being spun over apparent contradictions, is Islam a religion of peace or war? One can find statements to both effect in the Qur'an. Is it Allah that has contradicted himself or Muhammad that can't keep the story straight? I guess we'll never know, as no one was is able to testify as to what Muhammad did or didn't originally hear, but Muhammad himself.

Where does it say in the Quran 'Islam is a religion of war'?
in fact where 'Jesus' goes so far to say mat 10:35 For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--

Islam teaches us that no one can have a good relationship with god unless they keep their ties to their kin, even if they are kaffirs...

all the best

 

[marwen]

is Islam a religion of peace or war?

Islam is a religion of justice, not only for peace neither for war. Absolute peace could never bring Justice, as well as for absolute(unjustified) war.

I guess we'll never know, as no one was is able to testify as to what Muhammad did or didn't originally hear, but Muhammad himself.

There were people who lived with the Prophet Muhammed PBUH and reported (in the islamic history) his miracles they saw happening in his presence and they were proofs of his prophet-hood. Other miracles existing in the qur'an are still testifying that Muhammad PBUH cannot invent that knowledge by himself or with the help of any person or any science or book in his time. The only possibility is that Muhammad PBUH is receiving that knowledge from the Creator of this universe.

 

[Zafran]

Do you believe that Matthew 15:24 accurately reports what Jesus said? If you do, then learn to live with the fact that Matthew 28:19 has every bit as much support as Matthew 15:24 does. If you don't, then quit using it.

As for spin being spun over apparent contradictions, is Islam a religion of peace or war? One can find statements to both effect in the Qur'an. Is it Allah that has contradicted himself or Muhammad that can't keep the story straight? I guess we'll never know, as no one was is able to testify as to what Muhammad did or didn't originally hear, but Muhammad himself.

As I said before in another thread find out what a hadith is and what a Sahabi is - your repeating the same stuff without actually knowing how Islam is passed down and preserved.

Muttawatir and ahad isnads are also good to learn about.

 

[Ramadhan]

As I said before in another thread find out what a hadith is and what a Sahabi is - your repeating the same stuff without actually knowing how Islam is passed down and preserved.

I am sure he knows.

But pretending not to know, just because he knows that he cannot defend christianity if we are to use standards we expect from true religion from God, and that he wants to drag islam to the levels of saul Christianity which pretty much has no standards.

 

[titus]

But pretending not to know, just because he knows that he cannot defend christianity if we are to use standards we expect from true religion from God, and that he wants to drag islam to the levels of saul Christianity which pretty much has no standards.

Again, as someone who is neither Christian nor Muslim, I don't see either one having superior standards.

It seems to me that basing a major part of a religion on eyewitness reports handed down orally over a number of generations and then written down over 200 years later is hardly the epitome of accuracy. And then to use as your standard who it was that was rumored to have passed them down? An unbiased person cannot help but scoff at the accuracy of such parts of a religion.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Again, as someone who is neither Christian nor Muslim, I don't see either one having superior standards.

It seems to me that basing a major part of a religion on eyewitness reports handed down orally over a number of generations and then written down over 200 years later is hardly the epitome of accuracy. And then to use as your standard who it was that was rumored to have passed them down? An unbiased person cannot help but scoff at the accuracy of such parts of a religion.

I'm not aware how your description fits either Christianity or Islam.