Please any muslim brother clear my doubt

[imran123]

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

ONE OF CHRISTIAN FRIEND SAID HE NEEDED ANSWER ON THIS
CAN ANYONE PLZ HELP
WHAT DOES SPIRIT IN THIS VERSE MEANS?

 

[Dagless]

You'd be better off posting this in a Christian forum since this is a bible quote.

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't know which is more wrong, your christian friend who asked a muslim (if you are one) about a bible verse,
or you asking about a bible verse in an Islamic forum.


That would be like me asking about the meaning of Ayatul Qursyi to a christian friend, who in turn goes to a christian forum to ask about it.

 

[ardianto]

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

ONE OF CHRISTIAN FRIEND SAID HE NEEDED ANSWER ON THIS
CAN ANYONE PLZ HELP
WHAT DOES SPIRIT IN THIS VERSE MEANS?

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

CHRISTIANS CLAIM SPIRIT IS GOD
HOW TO PROVE THEM WRONG.
WHICH SPRIIT IS TALKED ABOUT IN THIS VERSE.

Two similar posts in two different threads.

 

[PouringRain]

Two similar posts in two different threads.

He actually posted it three times, but the first thread was deleted, that is why I said what i said in his other thread. Maybe if the mods have no objections, they can delete one of his threads and move the other to comparative religion?

 

[جوري]

the verse means he is haunted by a ghost and shouldn't sleep with the lights off..

peace

 

[PouringRain]

the verse means he is haunted by a ghost and shouldn't sleep with the lights off..

peace

In isolation it certainly sounds like it. :giggling:





To the OP:

The passage is speaking about God and his spirit. The word "spirit" in that passage and context refers to the invisible, omnipresent aspect of God's nature. The questions posed are rhetorical in nature-- where can I go, where can I flee? The answer is nowhere, because God is everywhere. If you read that entire Psalm, then the context becomes quite clear. It is a beautiful Psalm.

Yesterday, your deleted post on this topic, was asking about the "Holy Spirit". You said your Christian friend says this is the Holy Spirit in this passage. I think the problem you are having is with his use of the term "Holy Spirit" and the idea that this is the third part of the trinity. Am I correct? If you put out of your mind the term "holy spirit" and "trinity" then would you have a problem with the passage?

 

[imran123]

christian sister dont believe in trinity sorry

 

[IAmZamzam]

I don’t know Hebrew. I can tell you this excerpt from my site:

There are several things that the Bible can mean by the phrase “Holy Spirit”, but none of them suggest that it’s God Himself being referred to. (For more information on this than I give in this article, see the section on the phrase “Holy Spirit” in my article “Answering Islam’s Article on the Trinity Refuted”.) First, contrary to the allegations Christians made that we Muslims are being silly when we say that in the Koran the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, the Bible itself sometimes refers to angels as “spirits of God”:

"And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)

Read through the rest of the relevant chapters of Revelation and it will be clear that these seven spirits are the seven angels in 8:2 and so on. So the term “spirit of God”, which Christians consider synonymous with the term “Holy Spirit”, can mean “angel”. The word “spirit” can also mean “prophet”, as we can tell from 1 John:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

Hence the Islamic belief that the Holy Spirit prophesied in John 14-17 is Muhammad (peace be on him). Then, of course, there is the literal meaning of the phrase, which involves the Greek term “spiritos” literally meaning “breath”:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22)

Then there is the more nebulous meaning of the term, in which the spirit is simply the spirit of inspiration, in the ordinary English sense of the word. Christians lump up all of these different meanings, all of which are both obvious and obviously different, under the same definition, and that is precisely why the Holy Spirit is the hardest part of the Trinity to define, the most meaningless of the three phrases. There is no single meaning of the phrase in actuality, but only a long string of different non-Trinitarian meanings, but Christians consider them all to be the same, and so they end up with a term that cannot be clearly defined, or can be only when everyone has a different definition to give. It’s jargon, in other words, nonsense talk. That’s what you get when you oversimplify a complicated series of different meanings of a term--you inevitably end up with a difficult, nebulous, hard to fix, subjectively interpreted meaning on your hands.

I made a rather shameful goof there by getting the Greek and Latin terms for "soul" mixed up ("spiritus" is Latin, "pneuma" is the Greek word), but I stand by everything else I said. As for Psalms 137:9, that very same verse uses the term “spirit” interchangeably with “presence”, so there’s your answer. A person’s presence is not the same thing as the person himself. However, given that the Old Testament (certainly at least in its current form) has a way of depicting God as if he were some bodily, anthropoid creature of flesh (such as in Genesis 3:8, to give just one of many examples), I suppose it could literally mean God’s “soul”.

 

[PouringRain]

christian sister dont believe in trinity sorry

I know you don't. That is why I asked what I asked.

Are you saying that you still have a problem with the verse? That you have a problem with using the word spirit in reference to God?

 

[PouringRain]

I don’t know Hebrew.

I don't either..... but the word for spirit in the Psalm is ruach, which can mean wind, breath, spirit, etc. From my understanding, and someone is free to correct me, but the arabic equivalent used in the qur'an is ruh, which also means the same things depending on the context.

 

[imran123]

The Bible states the exact opposite of Job 33:4. God is the creator of human beings.

So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." (Genesis 6:7)

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalms 139:14)

I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me— the breath of man that I have created. (Isaiah 57:16)

God is the Creator of mankind and the Spirit is created from God.

Let us examine the verse closely

"The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath (ruach) of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

The Hebrew word for “spirit” is Nashamah, according to Strong’s Number 05397, it also means breath:
Strong’s Number: 05397
Transliterated Word:
Nashamah
Phonetic
nesh-aw-maw'
Definition: breath, spirit
breath (of God)
breath (of man)
every breathing thing
spirit (of man)
(online Source)
The Hebrew word means “spirit of man”, so Job 33:4 cannot be referring to the Spirit of God, because Nashamah denotes a human spirit.
The Bible translation is distorted because it renders the Hebrew Nashamah as “spirit”.
Let us quote the verse using “breath” and not “spirit”

"The breath of God has made me, and the breath (ruach) of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

The writer of Job is speaking of God alone, the Bible says:

When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust. (Psalms 104:29, NIV)
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath (ruach), they die, and return to their dust. (KJV)

When their spirit (ruach) departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing. (Psalms 146:4, NIV)

His breath (ruach) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (KJV)

The breath (ruach) of God gives him life, and God takes away the breath (ruach) of the human being.

Also, the Hebrew word Nashamah (Job 33:4) is applied to humans (Genesis 7:22).

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. (1)

Basically, the breath which God breathes into His creatures (Ps. 104:29-30, 146:4, Ecc. 12:7) is the same Hebrew word used in Job 33:4 for “Spirit of God”, so logically Job 33:4 could be interpreted to read:

“The breath (Nashamah) of God sustains me…

Job is using the Hebrew word to signify the breath of God in human beings (Gen. 7:22)

The following example clarifies:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Nashamah) of life, and the man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7)

The latter text of Job 33:4 reads:

…and His breath (ruach) gives me life”

The following example clarifies this:

When you send your Spirit (ruach), they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. (Psalms 104:30)

And the LORD said, My spirit (ruach) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

Since the Hebrew word is applied to both God and man, it means God is the Highest spirit (ruach) above the human, who is also ruach.

God breathed into Adam the breath of life:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed (Nashamah) into his nostrils the breath (Nashamah) of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

According to this verse, God breathed his Nashamah into Adam, so the “Spirit” of Job 33:4 is referring to God’s breath, not Spirit. The word Nashamah cannot be signifying God’s Spirit because the Hebrew is feminine [1], God is not feminine.

The Crosswalk does not capitalize the Hebrew word Nashamah, which directly implies this Hebrew word is not masculine; therefore it cannot apply to God.

Let us assume the Hebrew word is masculine, the correct translation of Job 33:4 then should read:

“The Spirit of God sustains me, and his breath gives me life”.

Cleary the words “his breath gives me life” can be reconciled with Gen. 2:7.

Since the Bible teaches only God is the Creator of man (Ps. 139:14), Job is not saying the Spirit made him, it only sustains him.

We repeat the verses quoted above:

So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." (Genesis 6:7)

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalms 139:14)

I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me— the breath of man that I have created. (Isaiah 57:16)
The book of Job is doubtful because Job was not the author:

"Although most of the book consists of the words of Job and his counselors, Job himself was not the author." (The NIV Bible commentary, p. 722)

Hebrews 9:14 merely says Jesus died on the cross while “filled with the Holy Spirit” and the Holy Spirit left his body after he died:

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (Pneuma) (1) . (John 19:30)

Jesus gave up the Holy Spirit.

God is the Eternal creator of the universe, not his Spirit, a created being.

Paul wrongly deifies Holy Spirit by using the Greek word Aionios which means eternal.

 

[imran123]

Christian Brother
I got the answer which i was looking for PSALMS(139:7)

The Psalms is not speaking of the Spirit but describing the eternal presence of God in all creation. There is no reference to the Spirit as a separate entity, God is the only character spoken here; He is present over all creation.

Ruach is Spirit according to pslam than why not the spirit conisdered as angles or prophet from the following verses

"And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)

Read through the rest of the relevant chapters of Revelation and it will be clear that these seven spirits are the seven angels in 8:2 and so on. So the term “spirit of God”, which Christians consider synonymous with the term “Holy Spirit”, can mean “angel”. The word “spirit” can also mean “prophet”, as we can tell from 1 John:

 

[imran123]

IN QURAN ALLAH SAYS

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him. (The Noble Quran, 38:72)"

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALLAH HAS PUT HIS SPIRIT IN HUMAN BEINGS IN ANY CONTEXT.

 

[Ramadhan]

I am sensing we will see the departure of Imran123 pretty soon.

I won't be missing him though.

 

[Woodrow]

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

ONE OF CHRISTIAN FRIEND SAID HE NEEDED ANSWER ON THIS
CAN ANYONE PLZ HELP
WHAT DOES SPIRIT IN THIS VERSE MEANS?

UH, it is virtually impossible for us as Muslims to clarify the Bible. We do not see the bible as the word of God(swt) and many of the members here have very little if any knowledge of the Bible. Do not attempt to answer your friend from the Bible, lead him to the truth and seek verification what is meant by spirit in the Qur'an.

IE:

QUESTION:

Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. I was a Christian before, and now I am confused about the definition of the Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit according to Islam? I would like to know the meaning of the Holy Spirit specifically in surat al-Ma'idah (5: 110). Jazakum Allah khayran.

ANSWER:

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we commend your eagerness to get Islamic knowledge. We earnestly implore Allah to bless your efforts in this honorable way and help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Answering the question you raised, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

"The Holy Spirit mentioned in the above verse refers to the Angel Jibreel (Gabriel), also known as Jibraaeel; he is the message-bearer par excellence from Allah, the Lord of Glory and Grace; he is also the conduit of divine support and assistance bestowed on Prophets, Messengers as well as righteous people who strive in the path of Allah.

1. Thus we read in the Qur’an that the Prophets (peace be upon them all) are chosen by Allah by sending down the Holy Spirit with the revelations: “He sends down the Spirit from His command, upon those of His servants He chooses, in order to warn people of the Day of Meeting.” (Ghafir: 15)

2. We also read in the Qur’an that it (the Qur’an) was sent down upon the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) through the medium of Holy Spirit: “Say: The Holy Spirit brought it down from your Lord with the truth, to strengthen those who believe, and as a guidance and good tidings to the Muslims.” (An-Nahl: 102)

"And your Lord, He is indeed the August, the Compassionate. And it is a sending down from the Lord of the Worlds, brought down by the Trustworthy Spirit, upon your heart, that you may be one of the warners, in Arabic speech.” (Ash-Shu`ara': 191-195)

3. It is in the same spirit that we read in the Qur’an that the Holy Spirit was sent down to strengthen Jesus and assist him in his work:
“We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs, and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit…” (Al-Baqarah: 253)

“Then Allah will say, O Jesus son of Mary! Remember My favor upon you and upon your mother; how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit…” (Al-Ma'idah: 110)

4. Furthermore, we read in the Prophetic traditions: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Verily, the Holy Spirit has cast this idea in my heart: No soul shall die before its appointed time and without having exhausted the means of livelihood apportioned for it, so try to look for a livelihood as best as you can, but don’t seek it through unlawful means.” (Reported by Abu Nu`aym in Hilyah)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) prayed to Allah to strengthen the famous poet Hassan ibn Thabit with the Holy Spirit in composing poems in defense of Islam: “O Allah! Strengthen him with the Holy Spirit.” (Reported by al-Bukhari)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) later on said about Hassan: “Verily Allah, the Glorious and Mighty, is strengthening Hassan with the Holy Spirit.” (Reported by at-Tirmidhi and Ahmad) “The Holy Spirit is with Hassan in his work!” (Reported by Abu Dawud)

It should be clear from the above that the Holy Spirit is the Angel Jibreel sent by Allah to assist His chosen servants in their divinely ordained missions."

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.islam.ca

SOURCE

 

[PouringRain]

The Psalms is not speaking of the Spirit but describing the eternal presence of God in all creation. There is no reference to the Spirit as a separate entity, God is the only character spoken here; He is present over all creation.

If this is the conclusion you have come to, then you have finally got it. This is what I was telling you in my response. The word "spirit" in the verse is that "eternal presence of God" as you call it, or the "invisible, omnipresent aspect of God's nature" as I called it.

That wasn't so difficult, was it?

The problem in your original conceptualization is that you were trying to separate it from God and make it out to be a separate distinct entity. Which, of course, it isn't.

I'm glad you finally understand it.

At least I think you do from this paragraph I quoted. I can't tell from the rest of you wrote.

 

[IAmZamzam]

The problem in your original conceptualization is that you were trying to separate it from God and make it out to be a separate distinct entity. Which, of course, it isn't.

Yes it is. You can semantically obfuscate that by referring to it as that "aspect of God's nature" all you like, but once again, that doesn't change that fact that a person's presence is not part of the person. It's a separate, external trait, an effect which the person is causing.

 

[PouringRain]

Yes it is. You can semantically obfuscate that by referring to it as that "aspect of God's nature" all you like, but once again, that doesn't change that fact that a person's presence is not part of the person. It's a separate, external trait, an effect which the person is causing.

Without a person, there is no presence. A presence can only exist with a person. They are not separate, distinct entities. The presence emanates from a person.

 

[imran123]

The verse clearly speaks about omnipresence of god and NOT spirit it is not mentioned as separate identity.
read the complete verse and u can understand

Why there is not a single verse in bible where holy spirit says WORSHIP me.