"Questions for Jehovah Witnesses"

[جوري]

Oh sure. What the angels meant was: “taste the punishment of hellfire 1,000 years from now.”

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 79:42] They ask thee of the Hour: when will it come to port?
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 79:43] Why (ask they)? What hast thou to tell thereof?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 79:44] Unto thy Lord belongeth (knowledge of) the term thereof.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 79:45] Thou art but a warner unto him who feareth it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 79:46] On the day when they behold it, it will be as if they had but tarried for an evening or the morn thereof.

Only Christians purport to know, the number of folks in heaven, when Armageddon will come about, who is saved and who isn't.. it is a shame really, when you can't think of another way for this religion to get worse.
As you can see quoted from the noble Quran, no one knows when that 'hour' shall be, so again, how about quitting rendering your own interpretation to Islamic text?

all the best
[/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[Hiroshi]

I am not certain if that is what the angel meant, but if it was, What is the problem?

The problem is that the angels would have used the future tense when saying this. But the statement is in the present tense as far as I can see. No doubt you will explain it all with a lesson in Arabic grammar.

 

[Insaanah]

My thanks to both of you clever people for your research here.

Nothing clever about that; those verses immediately came to mind - no research needed.

Insaanah, Surah 6:93 cited here has the word: "anfusakumu" for "souls". I would say then that this is surely an instance where the plural form of "nafs" means "spirits". Is that right?

Nafs is an Arabic word derived from the Hebrew word "Nefesh" נפש occurring in the Qur'an meaning self, psyche,[1] ego or soul.

This may be one of those occasions where it means souls.

Also, why do the angels in Surah 8:50 tell the kafar unbelievers: "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire" when they are not in hell yet?

Where do we read anywhere that those in the grave experience the torment of hell fire?

Oh sure. What the angels meant was: “taste the punishment of hellfire 1,000 years from now.”

The believers will get tasters of their final abode, in their grave, as will the disbelievers. They will be shown what their final abode will be, while they are in their graves. This is referred to by Allah in the Qur'an:

"So Allah protected him from the evils they plotted, and the people of Pharaoh were enveloped by the worst of punishment. The Fire, they are exposed to it morning and evening. And the Day the Hour appears [it will be said], "Make the people of Pharaoh enter the severest punishment." (40:45-46)

I believe you are already aware of the punishment of the grave.

the ahadith does. I have read accounts in them of the dead in their graves awaiting resurrection and suffering if they are wicked but existing in comfort if they are righteous.

Peace.

 

[Hiroshi]

The believers will get tasters of their final abode, in their grave, as will the disbelievers.

Okay I guess. If that is the only explanation. I still don't read anywhere that these disbelievers are burned. So they don't really taste the punishment of fire. They just get beaten up by angels.

 

[Insaanah]

Okay I guess. If that is the only explanation. I still don't read anywhere that these disbelievers are burned. So they don't really taste the punishment of fire. They just get beaten up by angels.

The angels said: "Taste the punishment of the fire." They didn't say, "Burn in the fire." Physically burning in a fire is not the only way to experience a fire. You may see the fire, you may feel it's intense heat, etc. And all of this will happen, as shown in the Qur'anic quote above (40:45-46) together with the hadeeth below. The heat alone of hell-fire will be at least 70 times hotter than any fire on Earth. See the bolded and coloured part of the last paragraph of the hadeeth below:

"It was narrated that al-Bara’ (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: We went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for the funeral of a man from among the Ansaar. We came to the grave and when (the deceased) was placed in the lahd, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sat down and we sat around him, as if there were birds on our heads (i.e., quiet and still). In his hand he had a stick with which he was scratching the ground. Then he raised his head and said, “Seek refuge with Allaah from the torment of the grave”, two or three times. Then he said, “When the believing slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him from heaven angels with white faces like the sun, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. They bring with them shrouds from Paradise and perfumes from Paradise. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits by his head, and he says, ‘O good soul, come forth to forgiveness from Allaah and His pleasure.’ Then it comes out easily like a drop of water from the mouth of a waterskin. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that shroud with that perfume, and there comes from it a fragrance like the finest musk on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this good soul?’ and they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the best names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is opened, and (the soul) is welcomed and accompanied to the next heaven by those who are closest to Allaah, until they reach the seventh heaven. Then Allaah says: ‘Record the book of My slave in ‘Illiyoon in the seventh heaven, and return him to the earth, for from it I created them, to it I will return them and from it I will bring them forth once again.’ So his soul is returned to his body and there come to him two angels who make him sit up and they say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He says, ‘Allaah.’ They say, ‘What is your religion?’ He says, ‘My religion is Islam.’ They say, ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ He says, ‘He is the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ They say, ‘What did you do?’ He says, ‘I read the Book of Allaah and I believed in it.’ Then a voice calls out from heaven, ‘My slave has spoken the truth, so prepare for him a bed from Paradise and clothe him from Paradise, and open for him a gate to Paradise.’ Then there comes to him some of its fragrance, and his grave is made wide, as far as he can see. Then there comes to him a man with a handsome face and handsome clothes, and a good fragrance, who says, ‘Receive the glad tidings that will bring you joy this day.’ He says, ‘Who are you? Your face is a face which brings glad tidings.’ He says, ‘I am your righteous deeds.’ He says, ‘O Lord, hasten the Hour so that I may return to my family and my wealth.’

But when the disbelieving slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him from heaven angels with black faces, bringing sackcloth, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits by his head, and he says, ‘O evil soul, come forth to the wrath of Allaah and His anger.’ Then his soul disperses inside his body, then comes out cutting the veins and nerves, like a skewer passing through wet wool. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that sackcloth, and there comes from it a stench like the foulest stench of a dead body on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this evil soul?’ and they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the worst names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is not opened.” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited (interpretation of the meaning):
“for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle” [al-A’raaf 7:40]

He said: “Then Allaah says, ‘Record the book of My slave in Sijjeen in the lowest earth, and return him to the earth, for from it I created them, to it I will return them and from it I will bring them forth once again.’ So his soul is cast down.” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited the verse (interpretation of the meaning):
“and whoever assigns partners to Allaah, it is as if he had fallen from the sky, and the birds had snatched him, or the wind had thrown him to a far off place”
[al-Hajj 22:31]

He said: “Then his soul is returned to his body, and there come to him two angels who make him sit up and they say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He says, ‘Oh, oh, I don’t know.’ They say, ‘What is your religion?’ He says, ‘Oh, oh, I don’t know.’ Then a voice calls out from heaven, ‘Prepare for him a bed from Hell and clothe him from Hell, and open for him a gate to Hell.’ Then there comes to him some of its heat and hot winds, and his grave is constricted and compresses him until his ribs interlock. Then there comes to him a man with an ugly face and ugly clothes, and a foul stench, who says, ‘Receive the bad news, this is the day that you were promised.’ He says, ‘Who are you? Your face is a face which forebodes evil.’ He says, ‘I am your evil deeds.’ He says, ‘O Lord, do not let the Hour come, do not let the Hour come.’”

(Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4753; Ahmad, 18063 – this version was narrated by him. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 1676.)

Peace.

 

[Amat Allah]

Originally Posted by Hiroshi Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1:15. So he is the first created being. He existed in heaven with God before coming to earth by being born through Mary. The Bible repeatedly calls Jesus (and some others) "Son of God".

As I understood from your words; Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not from the sons of Adam, right?

At what age Jesus was; when he was with God in heavens? do you know? was he a baby or an adult? was he in a human form ?

Why to say Jesus is the son of God while you said that Allah created him (is he a creature of God or His son?)...are we the sons and daughters of God since He created us? and are all the creatures of God His sons and daughters? and if Jesus is the son of God then why not worshipping him with God? ...Praise Be To Allah and High Be He ,Exalted and Raised far above...


and another Q that I really want to know its answer; according to the Christianity and the bible ;are all the Muslims (who died not believing that Jesus is the son of God) going to hell (or let me say Jahannam to not confuse you ;as you believe that hell means grave) ?

this will be in shaa Allah the last Qs and post for me here ;if not being asked about something or being cofused by some answers...in shaa Allah...

 

[Hiroshi]

As I understood from your words; Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not from the sons of Adam, right?

At what age Jesus was; when he was with God in heavens? do you know? was he a baby or an adult? was he in a human form ?

Why to say Jesus is the son of God while you said that Allah created him (is he a creature of God or His son?)...are we the sons and daughters of God since He created us? and are all the creatures of God His sons and daughters? and if Jesus is the son of God then why not worshipping him with God? ...Praise Be To Allah and High Be He ,Exalted and Raised far above...


and another Q that I really want to know its answer; according to the Christianity and the bible ;are all the Muslims (who died not believing that Jesus is the son of God) going to hell (or let me say Jahannam to not confuse you ;as you believe that hell means grave) ?

this will be in shaa Allah the last Qs and post for me here ;if not being asked about something or being cofused by some answers...in shaa Allah...

I am sorry if you are confused, Amat Allah. I am trying to keep things simple.

The Qur'an and the Bible agree that Jesus had no human father. God himself caused Jesus' birth. He is not from the sons of Adam.

Jesus existed in heaven with God before anything else was created. He was with God "in the beginning" (John 1:1). Obviously, he was not a mere human but a spirit being before coming to the earth.

Angels and humans have certain godly qualities that animals do not. They can show love, a sense of justice, wisdom, and an appreciation of spiritual things. As such God can view them as his children that he can have dealings with and we can view God as a loving and caring Father. Any father is a life-giver. And God has given life to us all.

Jahannam (in Hebrew: "Gei Hinnom"; in Greek: "Gehenna") is not a place of burning torment. It is a place of destruction and you have to be very, very wicked to go there. Lots of ignorant people who never knew the truth about Jesus will still be shown mercy by God.

 

[Hiroshi]

The angels said: "Taste the punishment of the fire." They didn't say, "Burn in the fire." Physically burning in a fire is not the only way to experience a fire. You may see the fire, you may feel it's intense heat, etc. And all of this will happen, as shown in the Qur'anic quote above (40:45-46) together with the hadeeth below. The heat alone of hell-fire will be at least 70 times hotter than any fire on Earth. See the bolded and coloured part of the last paragraph of the hadeeth below:

Thank you for your research Insaanah. Sorry to put you to so much work.

 

[Hiroshi]

If I may use an analogy to portray what I think Woodrow is saying here. Suppose that one owns a beautiful 1957 Chevy in mint condition, just as it came off of the assembly line. Sadly, the car is stolen, taken to a junk yard where it is disassembled and sold for scrap. Now the manufacturer buys the scrap metal, melts it down and produces a brand new car that is a perfect remake of that original 1957 Chevy. Despite all of the pieces going into being from the original, and despite the car looking exactly the same, it still isn't going to be a 1957 Chevy, but just a remake. It isn't the same thing, the original is gone and lost forever, never to be again because it was obliterated. That's what that the term "obliterated" means. If what is produced later is the same as the original, then the original was never obliterated but somehow continued to exist.

No one really understands what life is or how God can create it. It certainly is a very individual thing. A person's identical twin even with similar thoughts and personality is still not the same as the person. At the same time, the body that we have grows and changes while we remain the same in our identity.

Only God really comprehends the mystery of life. We shouldn't compare what humans can do with a car to what God can do with life.

With man-made cameras and audio equipment we can record a person's behaviour with such realism that it seems that the images are alive. But God can do far more. He can miraculously restore the whole person and really make him live again.

 

[Grace Seeker]

the body that we have grows and changes while we remain the same in our identity.

Actually, this would be more or less the crux of my point.

Not that you asked, but I would like to testify: Who I am is not determined by my body, for every cell in my body changes over time. Who I am is much deeper than skin and bones, muscle and sinew. Who I am is a creation of God, born when he created my spirit within me. The scriptures speak of God blowing his breath, his Spirit, into Adam. I don't know how it is done with the rest of us, but I believe that somehow God still breathes the breath of life, spiritual life, into each one of us. And so the Holy Spirit speaks to our spirits to woo us to himself. That spirit nature is, I believe, the reason that we are eternal beings from the moment of our creation. Yet it is also obvious that our physical bodies are not themselves eternal in nature. So, what we really are is a spiritual being clothed in a physical body. And that spirit within us is what makes us different from dogs and cats and horses and even chimpanzees.

 

[Amat Allah]

Thank you my respected brother for your kindness...May Allah give you the khayer of this life and the hereafter...Ameeeen

and yes our beloved prophet of Allah Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had no human father but he had a human mother who is form the sons and daughters of Adam and Allah Is The One Who Caused our birth...and Allah says about Jesus in His Noble Book ;Qur`aan:

"Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. (59) (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt. (60) " Surat Aal Im`raan

and if Allah had created Isa before and if Isa was in heaven with Allah then ; Allah would tell us in the Qur`aan and wouldn`t say the verse above but would explain for us that He (Allah) created Isa as a spirit in heaven before; then created him from dust and sent him to earth...(Aoothobellah from being one of those who try to chang the Qur`aan but I am just explaining for you and not lying to Allah..and Allah knows what lies inside of this heart of mine)....

My respected brother ,I know that we are different from animals and plants and also we human are different from Angels too peace be upon them but that won`t let us be Allah`s sons and daughters but His slaves and servants...if you were a slave for some king would you be able to call him father but to say : O your Majesty O my king O my lord...etc and if saying O my father to him then I don`t think that your head would be in its place again...think about it...

Allah says : "And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say: "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all). (18) Surat Al Maa`edah

and says:"And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! (30)" Surat At`tawbah

and says: "And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him. (116)" Surat Al Baqarah

"They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a son - Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not? (68) Say: Verily those who invent a lie concerning Allah will not succeed. (69) This world's portion (will be theirs), then unto Us is their return. Then We make them taste a dreadful doom because they used to disbelieve. (70) " Surat Yunus

and many many verses telling us that Allah has no sons and Allah never ever called us neither in Qur`aan; O my sons ,O my children or daughters nor the Sunnah mentioned that ever but O sons of Adam O My slaves and that what we are to Allah; His slaves and servants even the master of humanity Muhammad Bin Abdillellah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) never say that he is from Allah`s sons but His slave servant prophet and messenger...

and Jahannam for muslims is the place of burning torment whether for those who will abide in it till for ever or those who will not...and Allah says:"Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of Allah and of the angels and of mankind, combined. (161) They will abide therein (under the curse in Hell), their punishment will neither be lightened, nor will they be reprieved. (162)" Surat Al Baqarah

and I believe I am sure I know and it is carved in my heart that Jesus Ezra and Muhammad all are Allah`s slaves servants and prophets but not His sons by any mean and also that The religion of Islam is one of Allah`s religions the religion which Allah perfected for us and Qur`aan is one of Allah`s books and falsehood cannot come to Qur`aan from before it or behind it and it is sent down by the All-Wise, Worthy of all praise (Allah)...and may Allah keep me firm on this and all Muslims Ameeeeen

And I bear witness testify and swear that there is no god but Allah Who Is the Only One Who deserves to be worshipped alone and has no partners sons or relatives and I bear witness testify and swear that Jesus Ezra Muhammad and all of the creation of Allah are the slaves and servants of Allah and non is His son and May The Curse of Allah and His wrath be on me and make me abide till forever in Jahannam and never be merciful to me if Isa ( Jesus peace be uopn him) is the son of Allah and if Islam Qur`aan and Muhammad peace and blessings of Allah be uopn him are a lie Ameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen

my respected brother there is a famous saying in Arabia and it is:

الحق أبلج و الباطل لجلج


Al Haqqu Ablaju Wa Al Baatilu luj`luju...


it means : the truth is clear and falsehood is weak and fades away


as Allah says: "And say: "Truth has come and Batil (falsehood) has vanished. Surely! Batil is ever bound to vanish." (81) " Surat Al Is`raa

May Allah guide us all before the day of Judgement...Ameeeen

Allahumma Bal`laght Allahumma fa`shhad ( O Allah I have told them ;O Allah be my witness)

peace and farewell

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yes, humans are born as souls. Animals are also born as souls. Revelation 16:3 KJV says: "every living soul died in the sea" referring to sea creatures.

If you say that we are "born with a soul" it gives the impression that we are made up of two parts: body and soul. This is not the picture that the Bible gives. Rather, it refers to the soul as the whole person.

Hiroshi, I know that you have much more to do than answer our questions, but I'm still intrigued by what you said here and am trying to understand it. Are you saying that according to the Bible body and soul are inseparable?

 

[Hiroshi]

Off hand I can not recall if or how many times it is stated that "unbelievers express doubt that God could ever restore the dead to life" but that does make sense. I think it would be safe to assume many unbelievers do believe that.

Now about your claim the soul not being mentioned in the Qur'an------ one example:

23. The Believers (Al-Müminün) 103. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in Hell will they abide.

Looking back at the history of the Abrahamic teachings I believe you will find that the belief in an eternal soul was and still is believed by the Jews. This would have been a very common belief, well known and taught in the synagogues at the the time Jesus(as) walked the streets of Jerusalem. If that is a wrong teaching, doesn't it make sense that at some point Jesus(as) would have addressed this belief and corrected it? No where is it shown that Jesus(as) disagreed with this belief of an immortal soul.

These are some of the things that Jesus said:

Matthew 10:28 “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.”
Matthew 10:39 “He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it.”
Matthew 16:25 “For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”
Mark 3:4 “Next he said to them: “Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?” But they kept silent.”
Luke 6:9 “Then Jesus said to them: “I ask you men, Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do injury, to save or to destroy a soul?””
Luke 17:33 “Whoever seeks to keep his soul safe for himself will lose it, but whoever loses it will preserve it alive.”
John 12:25 “He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life.”

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, I know that you have much more to do than answer our questions, but I'm still intrigued by what you said here and am trying to understand it. Are you saying that according to the Bible body and soul are inseparable?

As I think I said earlier, "soul" basically means the whole person. But on occasion the term can also mean the life of that person. Genesis 35:18 speaks of Rachel's life leaving her body as she died and the Hebrew literally says: "as her soul was going out".

But in the more usual sense the soul is spoken of as inseparable from the body. The Bible even speaks of a dead soul, meaning a dead body or corpse (Leviticus 19:28; Leviticus 21:1; Leviticus 21:11; Leviticus 22:4; Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:6; Numbers 6:11; Numbers 9:6; Numbers 9:7; Numbers 9:10; Numbers 19:11; Numbers 19:13; Haggai 2:13).

 

[Hiroshi]

my respected brother there is a famous saying in Arabia and it is:

الحق أبلج و الباطل لجلج


Al Haqqu Ablaju Wa Al Baatilu luj`luju...


it means : the truth is clear and falsehood is weak and fades away


as Allah says: "And say: "Truth has come and Batil (falsehood) has vanished. Surely! Batil is ever bound to vanish." (81) " Surat Al Is`raa

May Allah guide us all before the day of Judgement...Ameeeen

Allahumma Bal`laght Allahumma fa`shhad ( O Allah I have told them ;O Allah be my witness)

peace and farewell

It is most helpful to compare the Bible with the Qur'an and see where the differences are.

Peace and farewell to you, Amat Allah.

 

[Woodrow]

These are some of the things that Jesus said:

Matthew 10:28 “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.”
Matthew 10:39 “He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it.”
Matthew 16:25 “For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”
Mark 3:4 “Next he said to them: “Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?” But they kept silent.”
Luke 6:9 “Then Jesus said to them: “I ask you men, Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do injury, to save or to destroy a soul?””
Luke 17:33 “Whoever seeks to keep his soul safe for himself will lose it, but whoever loses it will preserve it alive.”
John 12:25 “He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life.”

Peace Hiroshi,

Are you certain Jesus(as) actually said those things. You have quotes from unidentified people. We do not even know who was the speaker of those words as the actual authors of the Gospels were not given names until later.

But even if is ever proven that those were said by true followers of Jesus, we do not know what was originally said in the original Aramaic. Mistranslation has to be considered unless we can accurately compare it with the actual original, not the earliest translation.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Can you help me to make sense of these two sets of posts:

As I think I said earlier, "soul" basically means the whole person. But on occasion the term can also mean the life of that person. Genesis 35:18 speaks of Rachel's life leaving her body as she died and the Hebrew literally says: "as her soul was going out".

But in the more usual sense the soul is spoken of as inseparable from the body. The Bible even speaks of a dead soul, meaning a dead body or corpse (Leviticus 19:28; Leviticus 21:1; Leviticus 21:11; Leviticus 22:4; Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:6; Numbers 6:11; Numbers 9:6; Numbers 9:7; Numbers 9:10; Numbers 19:11; Numbers 19:13; Haggai 2:13).

Matthew 10:28 “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.”

If, in the more usual sense the soul is spoken of as inseparable from the body, and if in fact the "soul" basically means the whole person, why does Jesus speak of those who who can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul? This is clearly not just another of those times you refer to with the Bible speaking of a dead soul, for here we have just the opposite, a dead body and a living soul.

 

[Grace Seeker]

we do not know what was originally said in the original Aramaic. Mistranslation has to be considered unless we can accurately compare it with the actual original, not the earliest translation.

With respect Woodrow, I think that's a red herring. Not that the issue isn't important to you, but I don't think it is important to the question at hand. Hiroshi is basing his argument on the Bible as authoritative. So, whether the words of Jesus or someone else, whether proper representing a conversation originally had in Aramaic or a completely fabricated piece of fiction written in Greek, it is these writings that are received as being authoritative.

Your point doesn't become germane until someones is able to produce a record of the original Aramaic conversation, and even then only if it would also become acceptable as equally authoritative. Perhaps in an Islamic context it would be like challenging a Hadith that is accepted as authoritative and reliable by suggesting that another hadith (which might be true, but is as yet unauthenticated) says something to the contrary. For understanding the Sunnah, you would refer to what you have that is already accepted, rather than use that which is merely speculative.

However, I do have some other questions of Hiroshi's interpretation of those passages, based on a word study of the term psyche, that is translated here as "soul", which I hope to get to later today.

 

[Hiroshi]

Can you help me to make sense of these two sets of posts:

If, in the more usual sense the soul is spoken of as inseparable from the body, and if in fact the "soul" basically means the whole person, why does Jesus speak of those who who can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul? This is clearly not just another of those times you refer to with the Bible speaking of a dead soul, for here we have just the opposite, a dead body and a living soul.

In Matthew 10:28 "soul" refers to the life of the person which cannot be permanently taken away from him because God can give it back.

The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson renders Matthew 10:28 as: "Be not afraid of THOSE who KILL the BODY, but cannot destroy the [future] LIFE; but rather fear HIM who CAN utterly destroy both Life and Body in Gehenna."

Since God can resurrect the dead, even if we die we can hope for a future life and an enemy cannot take that away from us. Take note that Matthew 10:28 does not say that the soul is immortal. Rather it says that the soul can be destroyed in Gehanna.

 

[Hiroshi]

Peace Hiroshi,

Are you certain Jesus(as) actually said those things. You have quotes from unidentified people. We do not even know who was the speaker of those words as the actual authors of the Gospels were not given names until later.

But even if is ever proven that those were said by true followers of Jesus, we do not know what was originally said in the original Aramaic. Mistranslation has to be considered unless we can accurately compare it with the actual original, not the earliest translation.

Peace Woodrow.

If you look up any of those passages you will see from the context that Jesus is the one speaking. With this link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/

you can check any verse from the Bible. But you seem to have been taught to completely mistrust the Bible in any case.