Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Hiroshi]

IF the previous record is true it shows merely a case of violation of the law...

31 That day, after the Israelites had struck down the Philistines from Mikmash to Aijalon, they were exhausted. 32 They pounced on the plunder and, taking sheep, cattle and calves, they butchered them on the ground and ate them, together with the blood. 33 Then someone said to Saul, “Look, the men are sinning against the LORD by eating meat that has blood in it.”

it doesn't proof that the children of Israel (even those who ate blood) thought of blood eating as legal according to the law ....

You've lost me. What point are you making here?

 

[Hiroshi]

IF he had never heard about a new testament crucifiction! , why would he bring the issue on the Quran denying it?!!!

If the Gospel had merely said that some Jews had reported seeing Jesus crucified then the Qur’an would not contradict this at all. The Qur’an states that it appeared to them that Jesus had been crucified.

Mohamed must have seen or heard about Christians bowing to the cross and worshipping as God images of Jesus. In his judgement he would have viewed this as being quite wrong – as indeed it is!

Mohamed believed in the virgin birth and that Jesus was a miracle working prophet. But anything beyond that must have seemed to lead to the error that Christianity had fallen into. The Qur’an contains firm statements that no one should be punished for another’s sin, that the sacrifice of Jesus did not happen, that the trinity doctrine is false and that God has no Son.

 

[Al-manar]

You've lost me..

I have lost you only in your last post when you wrote:

If the Gospel had merely said that some Jews had reported seeing Jesus crucified then the Qur’an would not contradict this at all. The Qur’an states that it appeared to them that Jesus had been crucified..

I think I need some elaboration to get the meaning you intend ...

would you elaborate the point,plz?

 

[Hiroshi]

it doesn't proof that the children of Israel (even those who ate blood) thought of blood eating as legal according to the law ....

Noah and his descendants were prohibited from eating blood. Then centuries later this was repeated to the Israelites as part of the law of Moses. At no time were the children of Israel lawfully allowed to eat blood.

 

[Al-manar]

Noah and his descendants were prohibited from eating blood. Then centuries later ? this was repeated to the Israelites as part of the law of Moses. At no time were the children of Israel lawfully allowed to eat blood.

and I have no objection to that .... the prohibition was repeated again in the Quran

Holy Quran 6:145 Say [O Prophet]: "In all that has been revealed unto me, I do not find anything forbidden to eat, if one wants to eat thereof, [134] unless it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine-for that, behold, is loathsome-or a sinful offering [135] over which any name other than God's has been invoked.

 

[Hiroshi]

I have lost you only in your last post when you wrote:



I think I need some elaboration to get the meaning you intend ...

would you elaborate the point,plz?

My point was, in the early times at the rise of Islam, very likely no Muslim thought that there was any contradiction between the writings of the Christians and those of the the Qur'an. The Qur'an merely seemed to be giving more detail, explaining that the witnesses to the crucifixion were deceived about what they saw.

 

[Hiroshi]

and I have no objection to that .... the prohibition was repeated again in the Quran

Holy Quran 6:145 Say [O Prophet]: "In all that has been revealed unto me, I do not find anything forbidden to eat, if one wants to eat thereof, [134] unless it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine-for that, behold, is loathsome-or a sinful offering [135] over which any name other than God's has been invoked.

Exactly right.

 

[Al-manar]

Jesus As a word from God in the Quran?

Holy Quran 4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary.


the Quran - 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.


Classic commentaries (I will quote those that are called the mothers of classic tafsirs):

1- Tafsir Ibn katheer :

His Word, which He bestowed on Mary.means he was created by the word(order,will) by which the angel Gabriel was sent to Mary ,to perform the miracelous pregnancy .


2-Tafsir Alqurtubi :

the word refered to is the word (be) ,means Jesus was formed without a human father.


3- Tafsir Al-tabari:

The word refered to is the message of glad tidings that Mary received.so a word from him means a message from him.


4- Tafsir Al-Kashaf:

Jesus was called a word from Allah ,cause he came to being by his word without semen ,but directly...

5-Tafsir Al-razi(repeat the words of Alkashaf) :

Jesus was called a word from Allah ,cause he came to being by his word without semen ,but directly...

the same exact commentary was repeated in all the Tafsirs, eg; Tafsir Alkhazin, Tafsir Altabarani,Tafsir Mafatih alghayb ,fe zelal alquran etc.....

..................................


They Just interpreted the Quran by the Quran, "The Word" is literally God's utterance "Be." :

Holy Quran 3:59
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be.' And he was."

when God wills something he says to it "Be" and it is.

Holy Quran 16:40 "Verily! Our (Allah's) Word unto a thing when We intend it, is only that We say unto it "Be!" - and it is"


one question here, Jesus was beacause of the word or he is the word itself?


The verse tells: a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.

though he was cause of the word but was called the word ...and similar experessions from that kind is found in the Quran and the Arabic language.. it is when you mention the source but refering to the object,calling the object by the name of the source ...

eg; هذا خلق الله

means

That is God's creation .

which means,

هذا مخلوق الله

That is God's creature.


you see, here you called the creature by the name of the action that made him...

.......................

My point was, in the early times at the rise of Islam, very likely no Muslim thought that there was any contradiction between the writings of the Christians and those of the the Qur'an. The Qur'an merely seemed to be giving more detail, explaining that the witnesses to the crucifixion were deceived about what they saw.

If you want to know what I believe the Quran says regarding the crucifiction, well it says there wasn't a crucifiction neither for Jesus nor for anyone else ...... and in previous posts I provided several points to refute the substitution theory ,such theory which built a wall between the Quranic reader and the literal ,simple meaning the verses would tell....

anyway even if the Quran suggested substitution ,again it would be incorrect to say ,
(Qur'an merely seemed to be giving more detail), as even if both the bible and Quran in accord of crucifiction ,there still the contradiction of who was crucified .....

I don't think both the bible and Quran once ever could be get in harmony in the issue of crucfiction ....


once some christian scholars eg; William Montgomery Watt, tried to argue, though the Quran denied a jewish crucifiction, but could refer to a Roman crucifiction ...hence thinking that would get both the books in harmony .. and the dispute is over....

such approach though noble (from those who seek muslim& christian unity) ,yet flawed (details may be in another occasion ..

 

[Hiroshi]

If you want to know what I believe the Quran says regarding the crucifiction, well it says there wasn't a crucifiction neither for Jesus nor for anyone else ...... and in previous posts I provided several points to refute the substitution theory ,such theory which built a wall between the Quranic reader and the literal ,simple meaning the verses would tell....

anyway even if the Quran suggested substitution ,again it would be incorrect to say ,
(Qur'an merely seemed to be giving more detail), as even if both the bible and Quran in accord of crucifiction ,there still the contradiction of who was crucified .....

I don't think both the bible and Quran once ever could be get in harmony in the issue of crucfiction ....

You are 100% correct in saying that Jesus is a creature or a creation of God.


I have read history books in my local library that say that at first Muslims had great respect for the Bible because they believed that the Bible was in agreement with the Qur'an and gave proof that the Qur'an was the authentic word of God. But when the time came for a careful inspection and comparison of the two books it was seen that they were not in agreement. Then the Muslims changed their attitude completely and began to charge the Bible with corruption.

 

[جوري]

I have read history books in my local library that say that at first Muslims had great respect for the Bible because they believed that the Bible was in agreement with the Qur'an and gave proof that the Qur'an was the authentic word of God. But when the time came for a careful inspection and comparison of the two books it was seen that they were not in agreement. Then the Muslims changed their attitude completely and began to charge the Bible with corruption.

I doubt your history book were written with the correct historical point of view that reflects Islamic beliefs and opinions-- the Quran is replete with verses against the corruption of the books and the very basic tenet upon which your religion is based:

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً (4:171)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi

[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [FONT=Verdana,Arial]4:171 (Asad) O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds [of truth] in your religious beliefs, [180] and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - [the fulfilment of] His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. [181] Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "[God is] a trinity". Desist [from this assertion] for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God.
[/FONT]

_____________________________________

tell me how that can at all be construed as 'early' agreement?[/FONT]

 

[IAmZamzam]

I have read history books in my local library that say that at first Muslims had great respect for the Bible because they believed that the Bible was in agreement with the Qur'an and gave proof that the Qur'an was the authentic word of God. But when the time came for a careful inspection and comparison of the two books it was seen that they were not in agreement. Then the Muslims changed their attitude completely and began to charge the Bible with corruption.

I'm pretty sure that, for once, I speak for everyone when I say that we're not the least bit interested in vague recollections of scholarly sources, but only in citations and defenses of said sources.

 

[Al-manar]

Back to issue

(Origin of christianity , the christianity that should had been VS the christianity that shouldn't had been)


In previous posts, we investigated the Quranic verses supposing what the true christianity should had been and what role Jesus was supposed to do,supporting the Quranic verses with history and scholary works...

In terms of monotheism ,as explained here

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...tive-study-arranged-items-26.html#post1376895
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...tive-study-arranged-items-28.html#post1379397

lots of Jews were not such pure monotheists and the ideas of a possibility of physical Manifestation to God were there among some Jews who never thought of themselves as nothing but monotheists !....

In terms of the law ,Jews were punished by strict,hard laws that Jesus came to easien ,including the Law of food and the law of the Sabbath as well.....

In terms of Society ,the era of the second temple witnessed unparalleled sectarian conflict in the whole Jewish history ..

just as other prophets:
Holy Quran 16:64 And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.

to sum up: Jesus was sent to be A GUIDE ,redirecting those Jews who went astray to true monotheism ..... and A MERCY , abolishing the hard laws, giving the divine jugment on the issues the society disputed strongly on .


Jews needed what is more than a useless action of spilling some blood on a cross ...as there had been a neccesity of blood ,but what blood?

It is some fresh ,divine blood ,brought by Jesus ,to be injected into the sick body of Judaism that suffered from the shirk viruses , the fever of sectarian conflicts,the hammer of hard laws....

Had his mission succeded ?

during his life time A group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved ,verse [61:14].

A third group would emerge after his Earthly mission terminated ?

till next post

peace

 

[Hiroshi]

I'm pretty sure that, for once, I speak for everyone when I say that we're not the least bit interested in vague recollections of scholarly sources, but only in citations and defenses of said sources.

You will have to find them yourself. Any citation that I make will also likely have been documented by Answering Islam. If anyone can link my quotation to them then I get myself banned from posting here.

 

[جوري]

You will have to find them yourself. Any citation that I make will also likely have been documented by Answering Islam. If anyone can link my quotation to them then I get myself banned from posting here.

Don't you think that worse than being banned is your credibility here or anywhere you go to disseminate false information? A citation needs more than a site as a reference, it needs to be an established historical fact and not some demented orientalists' opinion!

 

[IAmZamzam]

You will have to find them yourself. Any citation that I make will also likely have been documented by Answering Islam. If anyone can link my quotation to them then I get myself banned from posting here.

I'm not doing your work for you. If you're the least bit interested in being convincing to anyone who doesn't already share your belief so unhesitantly and unthinkingly that they won't bother to look it up themselves, you're going to have to cite your sources. As we say it here in America, "You talk the talk, you walk the walk." Then again, it does often seem to me that so many Christian evangelists are not interested in that at all.

 

[Grace Seeker]

They Just interpreted the Quran by the Quran, "The Word" is literally God's utterance "Be." :

Though I understand what you say following this, it still leaves me with the question: How is a noun literally a verb?


The closest you come to answer that (but still doesn't do it for me) is:

though he was cause of the word but was called the word ...and similar experessions from that kind is found in the Quran and the Arabic language.. it is when you mention the source but refering to the object,calling the object by the name of the source ...

Can you explain your meaning some more, please?

 

[Al-manar]

Can you explain your meaning some more, please?

excuse me ,if my wording weren't clear enough ....

some more Arabic expressions:


قال الله تبارك وتعالى للجنة : أنت رحمتي

Allah said to Paradise, 'You are My Mercy,'

paradise is a fruit of God's mercy,yet we can call it ,it is God's mercy.....

انظر لقدرة الله فالسماء ليست قدرة الله و لكن اثر
من اثر قدرة الله

A believer said to another while looking at the sky ,oh look at God's power(instead of saying look at God's sky)
the sky is not God's power itself but a fruit of it ,yet you can call it in Arabic (God's power) ....

 

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus As a word from God in the Quran?

Holy Quran 4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary.


the Quran - 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.


one question here, Jesus was beacause of the word or he is the word itself?


The verse tells: a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.

So, Jesus is a fruit of Allah's word, he isn't actually Allahs' word? Is that what you are saying?

Doesn't Islam teach that all persons are originated by Allah in heaven BEFORE they are conceived in the womb, even those who are birthed in the natural means and not by a virgin birth. I thought Allah, not human semen, is the ultimate cause of all of our births. So, wouldn't it be just as true of every other person, not just Jesus, that we are each the fruit of Allah's word or Allah's will? Why take the time to express something about Jesus that is not unique to him? Or do you still see this expression of Jesus being Allah's word as somehow being unique? If so, how, please?

 

[Hiroshi]

I'm not doing your work for you. If you're the least bit interested in being convincing to anyone who doesn't already share your belief so unhesitantly and unthinkingly that they won't bother to look it up themselves, you're going to have to cite your sources. As we say it here in America, "You talk the talk, you walk the walk." Then again, it does often seem to me that so many Christian evangelists are not interested in that at all.

It isn't "work". You can google all the historical facts in five minutes. But let's leave this and talk about something else instead.

 

[Hiroshi]

Don't you think that worse than being banned is your credibility here or anywhere you go to disseminate false information?

I don't think that your estimation of my credibility would change much either way.