Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[جوري]

I don't think that your estimation of my credibility would change much either way.

That is not true.. I don't know you personally to have type cast you into a category.. I can only know of you from what you present and if what you present lacks credibility it makes you either ignorant and drawing satisfaction from overly simplistic conclusions or simply untrustworthy!

all the best

 

[IAmZamzam]

It isn't "work". You can google all the historical facts in five minutes. But let's leave this and talk about something else instead.

If it takes so little time, why haven't you done it when you're the one who made the claim and has been asked to back it up? "But let's leave this and talk about something else instead" indeed. Ha!

 

[Hiroshi]

If it takes so little time, why haven't you done it when you're the one who made the claim and has been asked to back it up? "But let's leave this and talk about something else instead" indeed. Ha!

I did do it. Right after I replied to your post number 551. Took all of 5 minutes like I said. But I don't want to pursue a matter for discussion that many would find too controversial. If you don't believe me then that's okay. I don't mind.

 

[Hiroshi]

That is not true.. I don't know you personally to have type cast you into a category.. I can only know of you from what you present and if what you present lacks credibility it makes you either ignorant and drawing satisfaction from overly simplistic conclusions or simply untrustworthy!

all the best

Sorry to hear that.

 

[IAmZamzam]

I've you've done it, show it. If you find the subject "too controversial", you shouldn't have brought it up at all. As it is, I still think you're lying or shirking. Maybe both.

 

[Hiroshi]

If you find the subject "too controversial", you shouldn't have brought it up at all.

You are quite right.

 

[Al-manar]

wouldn't it be just as true of every other person, not just Jesus, that we are each the fruit of Allah's word or Allah's will? Why take the time to express something about Jesus that is not unique to him?

what is unique,unusual about Jesus is his being without human father ,the same what is unique about Adam is his being without father and mother .....

the verses express the idea , God's will, produces the usual and the unusual , a critical message against the johannine word (as understood by the trinitarians), telling ; if you would use the term (word of God) ,ok let's use it ,but let me tell you what it does really mean when related to Jesus :

Holy quran 3:59 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is.

 

[Grace Seeker]

what is unique,unusual about Jesus is his being without human father ,the same what is unique about Adam is his being without father and mother .....

the verses express the idea , God's will, produces the usual and the unusual ,

But I thought your point was that Jesus was the word as in fruit of God's will, as expressed through his spoken word. He wasn't the word itself. How do other people come into being? How does God's will express them into being?

a critical message against the johannine word (as understood by the trinitarians), telling ; if you would use the term (word of God) ,ok let's use it ,but let me tell you what it does really mean when related to Jesus :

Holy quran 3:59 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is.

I appreciate that for you this seems a reasoned argument. The problem I have with it is that it doesn't conform the the understanding of the Word I have as presented by John:

• The Word was God. (1:1)
• He (the Word) was with God in the beginning. (1:2)
• Through him (the Word) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (1:3)

Hard to be a created being when you are yourself the creator who spoke all things into being. In fact, if you realize that God made everything that is by the power of his Word, the it fits perfectly that when this Word becomes flesh (1:14) we might continue to refer to the Word as God incarnate. Clearly, it is not just with regard to the crucifixion that our two sacred texts disagree about Jesus.

 

[Al-manar]

But I thought your point was that Jesus was the word as in fruit of God's will, as expressed through his spoken word. He wasn't the word itself. How do other people come into being? How does God's will express them into being?.

yes Jesus(the unusual birth) was the fruit of be (the word),just as other people (the usual birth) were the fruit of be (the word)....

we are all the fruit of (be) aka (the word):

Holy Quran - 40:68 It is He Who gives Life and Death(for all living creatures); and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, "Be", and it is.

but some people thought that there are a metaphysical sonship between Jesus and God ,the Quran tells them simply ,though his birth was unusual,but the word aka ( be) would create the usual as well as the unusual, with no meaning beyond that :

Holy Quran - 19:35 God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it: "Be," and it is

Holy Quran - 3:47 Said she: "O my Sustainer! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?" [The angel] answered: "Thus it is: God creates what He wills when He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, 'Be' - and it is.

I appreciate that for you this seems a reasoned argument. The problem I have with it is that it doesn't conform the the understanding of the Word I have as presented by John..

I never negated or wondered that the writer of John viewed Jesus as God .... that is a highly possible matter .... the book has verses, highly possible to be a reference to divinity, and has(besides ,other verses in other gospels) anti-divinity verses as well......
such contradiction, fueled the never-ending debate between the Trinitarian VS the Unitarians ,a game of gambling that some good muslims mistakenly played, imitiating the unitarians...

Clearly, it is not just with regard to the crucifixion that our two sacred texts disagree about Jesus
.

True ..... If they merely disagree on that,then my thread would have been concluded long time ago...

 

[Grace Seeker]

Holy Quran - 19:35 God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it: "Be," and it is

Is it the view of Islam that in Christianity (I suppose I need to specify mainline, historic, trinitarian Christianity, given what some consider to be Christianity) that we think that God took a son? If so, know that this is not our understanding when we speak of Jesus as the Son of God any more than yours is.



Holy Quran - 3:47 Said she: "O my Sustainer! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?" [The angel] answered: "Thus it is: God creates what He wills when He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, 'Be' - and it is.

This is something that we share. God creates out of his will and speaks all things into being that be. I would go even further and say that God does this and this is the way he does this because in reality he, God/Allah, is the one and only true being. Nothing else is, nothing else bes, unless it exists in God. For God not only speaks things into being, it is by his being that they are sustained. Existentially we are actually nothing. But we find existence in God's existence, in his being. On an existentially cosmic scale, God is all there is. This is why both of our religions recognize Allah as our Sustainer, in fact not just our sustainer, but THE one and only Sustainer.

 

[YusufNoor]

Is it the view of Islam that in Christianity (I suppose I need to specify mainline, historic, trinitarian Christianity, given what some consider to be Christianity) that we think that God took a son? If so, know that this is not our understanding when we speak of Jesus as the Son of God any more than yours is.



Holy Quran - 3:47 Said she: "O my Sustainer! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?" [The angel] answered: "Thus it is: God creates what He wills when He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, 'Be' - and it is.

This is something that we share. God creates out of his will and speaks all things into being that be. I would go even further and say that God does this and this is the way he does this because in reality he, God/Allah, is the one and only true being. Nothing else is, nothing else bes, unless it exists in God. For God not only speaks things into being, it is by his being that they are sustained. Existentially we are actually nothing. But we find existence in God's existence, in his being. On an existentially cosmic scale, God is all there is. This is why both of our religions recognize Allah as our Sustainer, in fact not just our sustainer, but THE one and only Sustainer.

so...despite being a "mainline, historic, trinitarian Christian," you want us to believe that you think the following statement is false:

John 3:16 (Wycliffe New Testament)

16 For God loved so the world, that he gave his one begotten Son, that each man that believeth in him perish not, but have everlasting life.

do i have this correctly? that it was IMPOSSIBLE for "God [who] loved so the world, to ACTUALLY gIve his one begotten Son, that each man that believeth in him perish not, but have everlasting life?"

is that what you mean?

and thus, ALL Christianity is a lie?

really?

you sure?

 

[Al-manar]

Is it the view of Islam that in Christianity (I suppose I need to specify mainline, historic, trinitarian Christianity, given what some consider to be Christianity) that we think that God took a son.

In Islam, calling yourself or others , son(s) of God is something be condemned in the Quran ... a sonship related to the almighty, in whatever sense you may suggest ,is rejected entirely .....
I know that such topic is important and interesting, just try at best not to go so much offtopic...

let's postpone the discussion in that specific matter ,for the future term (Son of God)

 

[Al-manar]

Back to Issue .......................


(Origin of christianity , the christianity that should had been VS the christianity that shouldn't had been)


we tried in our last posts related,to shed light on the Quranic verses that ,though few,yet provided us with the basic guidelines needed to understand the origin of christianity as should had been ....
we described the duties of Jesus and the true message he preached ......

before shedding light on the christianity that shouldn't had been,we need to get the context .....

The Jewish reaction to the message of Jesus?

1- The disciples ,without exception, believed & supported him :

the Quran - 3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

and that verse not only negates the idea of a disciple writing about a divinity of Jesus,blood atonement (a disciple writing a gospel(s) of those that we have today) but also negates the gnostic based idea of a traitor disciple(so called Judah or whatever) who sold his prophet for a sum of money....

only the disciples believed in his message?

the Quran - 61:14
O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved.

Reaction of the disbelievers?

offenses:

"... the Jewish Encyclopœdia admits that Jewish legends concerning Jesus are found in the Talmud and Midrash . It is the tendency of all these sources to belittlethe person of Jesus by ascribing to Him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. "


1- illegitimate birth:

the Quran - 4:156
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny.

Jerusalem Abodah Zarah 2:2/7 "someone ... whispered to him in the name of Jesus son of Pandera"

In some of the texts, the father produced a son with a woman named Mary (Miriam in Hebrew). Several of the texts indicate that the mother was not married to Pandera, and was committing adultery and - by implication - Jesus was a basta*d child.(wikipedia)


2- Magic:

the Quran - 5:110
And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Babylonian Sanhedrin 107b - "The master said: Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic (Editions or MSs: Firenze II.1.8-9, Barco )

3-Shameful death:

Holy Quran [4:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him

Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b -"on the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus the Nazarene" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Karlsruhe 2)

Why would they attack him that way?

the Quran - 2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?


What the Jews desired him to be?

That is one serious,crucial question


till next post...

 

[Al-manar]

Before analysing the Jews motives for rejecting Jesus , we need to discuss some items strongly related items,left ....

we visited the Quranic verses that define who was the real Jesus ,and what is meant by real christianity ..... now let's visit both the terms (christians) and (Injeel) from a Quranic point of view....

the misunderstanding of both terms among muslims and christians is common ,now let's relax ,analyse the verses related ,to reach satisfying conclusion ...

Christians,who and when?


True Christians?


They are any human being that believed in the true message of Jesus during and after his earthly mission :

1- the disciples:

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

2- a section among the Jews during the life time of Jesus:

Holy Quran :O you who believe, be helpers of God, as Jesus, son of Mary, had said to the disciples: "Who will help me in the way of God?" and they had answered: "We are the helpers of God." Then a section among the children of Israel believed, but a section among them did not.

3- Any Jewish member (even if was misinformed and believed that Jesus was crucified) that contiuned keeping the law and stick to pure monotheism after the departure of Jesus till the coming of Islam.

Holy Quran : Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

4 - Muslims.

Quran - 42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them.

in a word,true christians is not such narrow term ,that some people would understand it to be....

False Christians?

1-Those who improbably believed in Jesus as God,yet thought of themselves as witnessing the end of times and of Jesus as fulfilling imaginary role he wasn't supposed to do ,and atoning others with his blood... eg; the writer of Matthew and those alike...

2- Those who believed in Jesus as God ,atoning others with his blood. ,possibly the writer(s) of John ,Paul etc.... who


3- Those who,though believed not in Jesus as God yet believed in everything else in the New Testament eg; Arius and other unitarians...

some Muslims mistakenly would suggest Arians as the true christians ,and the true followers of the message of Jesus.... but they ignore the fact that Arianism before the the second century AD ,never existed yet ..... and different of Islam and true christianity as well ..similar to the way Islam is different from Jehovah's Witness etc....

till next post

peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

now let's visit both the terms (christians) and (Injeel) from a Quranic point of view....

I accept that what you posted above does represent a Quranic point of view.

What I don't accept is that I or anyone else should be compelled to utilize any point of view that comes from outside of Christianity to define what is or is not Christian. Surely you would not allow for non-Muslims to define Islam. Likewise the Qur'an cannot define who are and who are not true Christians.

 

[Al-manar]

I accept that what you posted above does represent a Quranic point of view.

What I don't accept is that I or anyone else should be compelled to utilize any point of view that comes from outside of Christianity to define what is or is not Christian.

The Quranic point of view could be utilize ,only if we analyse objectively ,the source from which christians get their theology,and their belief that such theology is the true representative of of true christianity ........ after we provide our objections ,christians are free to counter argument ...and the reader is the judge ........ and never to be forgetten,all such objections from our part ,should be objective and focused on the bible itself .....

you have all the right to define your theology,but we have all the right to show you where you erred,from objective point of view..... I have compelling reasons to believe that what the writers of the New testament defined as true christianity,is not true and based on flawed Exegesis .... all that comes from the bible itself not the Quran....

that what will be our next posts about.....

 

[Grace Seeker]

Al-Manar, I have appreciated your thread. And as I was home having lunch today an article on the news made me think of a saying that I think I may have to modify to fit in this thread.

The news article highlighted a new debate in the scientific community and showed how unsettled science can sometimes be when new ideas are introduced. Hypotheses are set forth and then attacked. While many of us may think that science is all cut and dried having to do with facts, the process of arriving at those "universally accepted" opinions is anything but free of controversy. And it led me to think of the old Otto von Bismark quote: "Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." I said to my wife, I think we are going to have to add science to the list. Then we started to run off a few other things that experience has taught us one is better off dealing with the finished product than with the process by which it is formed -- catsup, chocolate milk, and creamed corn being a few of those examples.

Anticipating some of what you might write about from the opening chapter of Christian history, I suspect that theology might be another one of those things of which one could say "Politics, sausage and theology -- it is better not to see these being made." Things were definitely fluid back then and not near as neat and orderly as we try to present them centuries later. Nonetheless I look forward to your continued presentations.

 

[IAmZamzam]

What I don't accept is that I or anyone else should be compelled to utilize any point of view that comes from outside of Christianity to define what is or is not Christian.

And I find that unacceptable, as I have stated.

I not only was a Christian for years and years and years, I probably know at least as much about it as you do (or did at one time, maybe still do). Even if this were not the case, it still wouldn't magically preclude me from having a worthwhile viewpoint on the matter. It's just a sneaky ad hominem attack, and a puerile one at that.

 

[Grace Seeker]

And I find that unacceptable, as I have stated.

I not only was a Christian for years and years and years, I probably know at least as much about it as you do (or did at one time, maybe still do). Even if this were not the case, it still wouldn't magically preclude me from having a worthwhile viewpoint on the matter. It's just a sneaky ad hominem attack, and a puerile one at that.

Then you won't mind us non-Muslims defining what it is or is not Islamic?

 

[IAmZamzam]

If they know as much about Islam as I do about Christianity? No, I wouldn't necessarily mind, although that doesn't mean that I'll agree with them. If I have any refutations to offer then they certainly won't be such a loathsome cop-out as, "You're not a Muslim, therefore your word on the issue is worthless."

You won't find anything in Islam remotely comparable to the Trinity, however, so it's not an issue.