Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Grace Seeker]

If I have any refutations to offer then they certainly won't be such a loathsome cop-out as, "You're not a Muslim, therefore your word on the issue is worthless."

That's NOT what I said.

 

[Hiroshi]

You won't find anything in Islam remotely comparable to the Trinity, however, so it's not an issue.

When you were a Christian did you believe that the Trinity teaching was found in the Bible?

 

[IAmZamzam]

When you were a Christian did you believe that the Trinity teaching was found in the Bible?

Believe it or not I seem to remember that the subject wasn't on my mind a whole lot to begin with.

 

[IAmZamzam]

That's NOT what I said.

You didn't put it that harshly in your wording, but that is EXACTLY what you said. Being an outsider does not make one an automatic ignorant. It doesn't even make one automatically more ignorant than an insider. Even at the very most fundamental things. Sometimes being the person who holds a particular viewpoint makes you less aware of what it is you're really saying than a dissenter would be. Haven't you ever seen that happen to anyone? Don't you know what I'm talking about? Open your eyes, it happens all the time in this life.

 

[Hiroshi]

Believe it or not I seem to remember that the subject wasn't on my mind a whole lot to begin with.

I bet it is now.

 

[YusufNoor]

Quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman View Post
If I have any refutations to offer then they certainly won't be such a loathsome cop-out as, "You're not a Muslim, therefore your word on the issue is worthless."

Quote by Grace Seeker
That's NOT what I said.

;D

you DO say it! ALL the time!

the NEXT quip is usually:

"some form of" Allah is a moon god. [nauthubillah]

you have a history...

 

[IAmZamzam]

I bet it is now.

If I didn't have to deal with Christians about it so much then it wouldn't be. How often is the Hindu "one god pantheon" on your own mind?

 

[Al-manar]

Injeel ?


1- A revelation was sent to Jesus, as a guidance and light, confirmation yet modifying few items of the Law that had come before him, to make clear to Jews some of the (points) on which they dispute, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God, verses 5:046,3:50 ,43:63 ...

2 - It HAS TO BE mostly the saying parts of the the synoptic gospels

[007:157] "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Injil;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

the Quran though tells that both the books were tampered with(we have exposed that in previous posts),yet most the truth has remained therein .....
the verse is not telling christians,Jews to go look up a passage (s) in a lost gospel .....

the Injeel is mostly within the new testament .... why mostly?

The Quran quotes the Injeel (besides the torah),directly ?

[009:111] God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Torah, the Injil, and the Quran'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God?


Holy Quran [048:029] Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Injil is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

Are such promise & proverb to be found in the Old and New Testament?

if they are not there, then the Saying gospel (which is within the New testament) is missing some parts.....

If the following modifications of the Law were parts of the Injeel, and no mention about them in the saying gospel, then we can be assured of missing parts in the saying gospel that are parts of the Injeel .....


Holy Quran 3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Holy Quran 43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

that is why I said the Injeel is MOSTLY within the saying gospel ,and that MAY support PARTLY what Grace-seeker suggested regarding the well established Q gospel theory ,as being in oral form not written text .....


more to write next post InshaAllah....

 

[Grace Seeker]

;D

you DO say it! ALL the time!

the NEXT quip is usually:

"some form of" Allah is a moon god. [nauthubillah]

you have a history...

Something you hate to be referenced. But, check my history, I've never said that Allah is a moon-god, have I? What I have said is that in the same way that Muslims hate it when people from outside Islam make those types of statements with regard to Islam, so too do I hate it when people from outside of Christianity try to say what it is that Christians think and believe. If you hate the one, you can imagine then how much I hate the other.

You see you argue that Christians are not monotheistic and no amount of us saying that we are makes it so. But at the same time, no amount of someone outside of Christianity saying that we are not monotheistic makes that view so either. The best we can say is that despite Christianity's self understanding as being a monotheistic religion, you as a Muslim don't think that such a self-evaluation is true. But you can't say that it categorically is not true, because you are not the final arbitrar of what is and isn't true.

Additionally, it is rare that a Muslims properly states what it actually is that Christians believe with regard to God. And among the worst mis-staters of what we mean by the Trinity are those who claim that they were themselves once Christians.

That is why I have said:

I don't accept is that I or anyone else should be compelled to utilize any point of view that comes from outside of Christianity to define what is or is not Christian.

.
The adherents of a religion, any religion, should be the ones who get to define what it is that they believe.


That is not to say that they can't be critiqued from outside. However, there is a difference between critiquing another person's view and trying to define it for them. I assert that only Christians can define (however poorly) what it means to be a Christian, what Christians believe and what Christianity is. Let us do that first and then, after we have defined ourselves, critique what you perceive to be the invalidity of those beliefs or the manner in which we practice it.

So, I have no disagreement with this part of what Yahya Sulaiman said:
.

Being an outsider does not make one an automatic ignorant. It doesn't even make one automatically more ignorant than an insider. Even at the very most fundamental things. Sometimes being the person who holds a particular viewpoint makes you less aware of what it is you're really saying than a dissenter would be.

.
Indeed, there is actual value in understanding how an outsider might see one's faith.
.

 

[Grace Seeker]

the verse is not telling christians,Jews to go look up a passage (s) in a lost gospel .....

.
The term "Christian" wasn't coined during Jesus' earthly ministry. Indeed, it wasn't until Paul and Barnabas were engaged in ministry among both Jews and Gentiles who were becoming followers of the Way (as it was first known) that the term "Christian" became what the body of believers was called. Yet, based upon what I've heard many Muslims express in the past, given their distrust of Paul's ministry, would those who came under Paul's influence with regard to this new faith even qualify to be called Christians in the Quranic sense of the word?
.

 

[IAmZamzam]

So it's an especial shame for an ex-Christian like me to misunderstand (translation: have an alternate viewpoint than) a Christian doctrine. Or could it just be that the reason I left Christianity in the first place was precisely because I did understand it?

You act as though we Muslims are some minority voice quacking in a lonely wind. In reality Christians are the only group of people who don't agree that the Trinity is nonsense that tries to have it both ways. And not even all Christians. This is not some idiosyncratic theory of ours. Does the thought never pop into your head that when you speak of a plural singular and nobody but you sees any meaningful difference between this impossible distinction and a plain vanilla plural, they may be seeing things that way for a good reason?

And you still haven't answered my question from earlier (at least, I think it was you I asked) so I'll ask again: is the Trinity doctrine comprehensible? Because if it is then there should be an objective and coherent way of defining it which you can tell us and which we can check against others, and if it isn't then you have neither any right nor any reason to say that you Christians understand it any better than anyone else. I think the only reason you won't answer me is because you, like so many Christians, enjoy the luxury of being able to shift your ground on the issue whenever it supports your beliefs.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So it's an especial shame for an ex-Christian like me to misunderstand (translation: have an alternate viewpoint than) a Christian doctrine. Or could it just be that the reason I left Christianity in the first place was precisely because I did understand it?

.
Whether you understand it or not I can't say. What I said was that it is mis-stated.

You act as though we Muslims are some minority voice quacking in a lonely wind. In reality Christians are the only group of people who don't agree that the Trinity is nonsense that tries to have it both ways. And not even all Christians. This is not some idiosyncratic theory of ours. Does the thought never pop into your head that when you speak of a plural singular and nobody but you sees any meaningful difference between this impossible distinction and a plain vanilla plural, they may be seeing things that way for a good reason?

.
NO. Not even after you try to point it out.

And you still haven't answered my question from earlier (at least, I think it was you I asked) so I'll ask again: is the Trinity doctrine comprehensible?

.
It is the attempted expression of a truth that remains at it's heart a mystery. Comprehensible to some, while at the same time seemingly incomprehensible to others. I suspect that the vast majority of Christians who accept it don't understand it any better than those who reject it. But, yes, I do believe it is comprehensible -- though not by those who insist on doing a mathematical analysis of an ontological and existentialistic construct.

I think the only reason you won't answer me is because you, like so many Christians, enjoy the luxury of being able to shift your ground on the issue whenever it supports your beliefs.

.
Or perhaps, realizing how many times folks have gone round and round on this issue over the years, out of respect for this thread and a desire not to derail it.

 

[جوري]

though not by those who insist on doing a mathematical analysis of an ontological and existentialistic construct.

what constructs would you like us to understand it under?

 

[Predator]

Before analysing the Jews motives for rejecting Jesus , we need to discuss some items strongly related items,left ....

we visited the Quranic verses that define who was the real Jesus ,and what is meant by real christianity ..... now let's visit both the terms (christians) and (Injeel) from a Quranic point of view....

the misunderstanding of both terms among muslims and christians is common ,now let's relax ,analyse the verses related ,to reach satisfying conclusion ...

Christians,who and when?


True Christians?


They are any human being that believed in the true message of Jesus during and after his earthly mission :

1- the disciples:

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

2- a section among the Jews during the life time of Jesus:

Holy Quran :O you who believe, be helpers of God, as Jesus, son of Mary, had said to the disciples: "Who will help me in the way of God?" and they had answered: "We are the helpers of God." Then a section among the children of Israel believed, but a section among them did not.

3- Any Jewish member (even if was misinformed and believed that Jesus was crucified) that contiuned keeping the law and stick to pure monotheism after the departure of Jesus till the coming of Islam.

Holy Quran : Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

4 - Muslims.

Quran - 42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them.

in a word,true christians is not such narrow term ,that some people would understand it to be....

Ibn Kathir 61:14 also speaks about the True Christians who were killed


Imam Abu Ja`far bin Jarir At-Tabari reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "When Allah decided to raise `Isa to heaven, `Isa went to his companions while drops of water were dripping from his head. At that time, there were twelve men at the house. `Isa said to them, `Some of you will disbelieve in me twelve times after having believed in me.' He then asked, `Who among you volunteers that he be made to resemble me and be killed instead of me; he will be with me in my place (in Paradise).' One of the youngest men present volunteered, but `Isa commanded him to sit down. `Isa repeated his statement and the young man again stood up and volunteered, and `Isa again told him to sit down. `Isa repeated the same statement and the young man volunteered. This time, `Isa said, `Then it will be you.' The appearance of `Isa was cast upon that young man, while `Isa, peace be on him, was raised to heaven through an opening in the roof of the house. The Jews came looking for `Isa and arrested the one that appeared as him, killing him by crucifixion. Some of them disbelieved in `Isa twelve times, after they had believed in him.
They divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (the Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as much as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (the Nestorians), said, `Allah's son remained with us as much as Allah willed and He then rasied him up to heaven.' A third group said, `Allah's servant and Messenger remained with us as much as Allah willed and then Allah raised him up to Him.' The last group was the Muslim group. The two disbelieving groups collaborated against the Muslim group and annihilate it. Islam remained unjustly concealed until Allah sent Muhammad
　
Paul is undoubtedly a part of those disbelieving groups which killed the Muslim group as we can see that a few of Paul’s murders are listed in the bible
"Saul, yet breathing out threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord...."
(Acts 9:1)
"...many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them"
(Acts 26:10)
"And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women"
(Acts 22:4)
The list of Paul’s murders of the true believers is a very long one. and his intentions are very clear to everyone, "To destroy the true religion" of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) and yet he says he is free from any sin of murder.
"I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men"
(Acts 20:26)
This way, even Hitler would be in Christian heaven as murder is a very minor sin and anyone can get away with it.

 

[IAmZamzam]

All right then, Grace Seeker, if the Trinity is comprehensible to all but the precious elite few who have this esoteric or expert theological knowledge necessary to master it, why don't you use your own to do your best to initiate us into these mysteries? Feel free to start another thread on it if you like. I am very interested to see what, in all my three years constantly at the top of all my theology classes at a very fine accredited Christian high school, and throughout all my readings in C.S. Lewis and others, and all my exegetical study through books and internet articles, and all my discussions with much more knowledgeable Christians than myself, and all the countless discussions and arguments I've had with WAY too many missionaries to count in the many years since I left Christianity, I somehow missed. Let's hear it. Explain.

 

[Grace Seeker]

[/SIZE][/FONT]Paul is undoubtedly a part of those disbelieving groups which killed the Muslim group.

.

Paul most certainly originally opposed the followers of the Way. But do you remember on what grounds who opposed them?

 

[Ramadhan]

The term "Christian" wasn't coined during Jesus' earthly ministry. Indeed, it wasn't until Paul and Barnabas were engaged in ministry among both Jews and Gentiles who were becoming followers of the Way (as it was first known) that the term "Christian" became what the body of believers was called. Yet, based upon what I've heard many Muslims express in the past, given their distrust of Paul's ministry, would those who came under Paul's influence with regard to this new faith even qualify to be called Christians in the Quranic sense of the word?

Actually, the word used in the Qur'an is Nasara (nasrani).

not sure if all followers of Paul/Saul (christians) can be classified under the term "nasara"

 

[Ramadhan]

Something you hate to be referenced. But, check my history, I've never said that Allah is a moon-god, have I? What I have said is that in the same way that Muslims hate it when people from outside Islam make those types of statements with regard to Islam, so too do I hate it when people from outside of Christianity try to say what it is that Christians think and believe. If you hate the one, you can imagine then how much I hate the other.

ah GS, you are at it again.

You are making analogy of muslims who say that christians worship jesus as god (along with the father as god and holy spirit as god) to christians who say that muslims worship moon god.

It is either you are awfully naive or the other option (which I dare not mention, lest it hurt your ego).

Isn't christians themselves who declare they worship jesus, in addition to Holy spirit and the father?
Isn't jesus pbuh a human?
so christian worship a human god, right?
so there are three entities that christian worship, correct?

Now, tell me if there is a muslim who proclaim that they worship moon, or that if there is any Qur'an verse and/or hadith that say or even subtly or vaguely indicate that we worship god?
Makes you wonder why christians love saying that muslims worship moon god, eh? and makes you question their intention?

You know the answers to the above questions.

 

[Ramadhan]

The term "Christian" wasn't coined during Jesus' earthly ministry. Indeed, it wasn't until Paul and Barnabas were engaged in ministry among both Jews and Gentiles who were becoming followers of the Way (as it was first known) that the term "Christian" became what the body of believers was called. Yet, based upon what I've heard many Muslims express in the past, given their distrust of Paul's ministry, would those who came under Paul's influence with regard to this new faith even qualify to be called Christians in the Quranic sense of the word?

You know very well that not all early christians were followers of Paul.

 

[Hiroshi]

Injeel ?



[007:157] "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Injil;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

Allah is speaking to Moses here, right? Did the Injil even exist in Moses' time?