Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?

[Ramadhan]

All of the problems which Muslims turn to the Hadith for answers to are answered in the Torah and the Gospel.

Really? I think it is clear that you misunderstand hadith.
Do the torah and gospel regulate personal and public hygiene and health? etc.
All I get from people explaining about gospel is that "jesus loves you and died for your sins" and so you can live your life as you pleased.
Even in simple things as what food are allowed to eat, God of the OT and NT seems to create confusion. Even today among christians there's disagreements over what is halal and what is haram.
While ahadeeths cover every aspects of human life because the prophet SAW played every roles as a trader, husband, son, father, businessman, head of state, scholars, worker, chief of military, head of government, poor person, rich person, healthy, ill, deeply spiritual, deeply entrenched in reality, etc etc.

For example, a common question is "how many times a day should I pray"? Jesus (pbuh) tells us to pray every time that we realize we have sinned, as soon as we are able to. If we cannot speak aloud, he also makes it clear that Allah (swt) knows what is in our heads before we say it aloud, so this is not a problem. Problem solved

For a moment, I thought you were one of a few christian who understood Islam, but I guessed wrong.
If you for a moment stop quoting articles from Islam haters, you will be able to to know the simple and stark difference of basic terms between "pray" and "shalah".

And if you have observed ahadeeth, and how true muslims practice their life, you will be able to know that muslims constantly pray from the moment we wake up in the morning until we close our eyes to sleep. we pray when we wake up, we pray when we eat, we pray when we are healthy, we pray when we are sick, etc.
As a muslims, we are not only required to pray only when we realize we have sinned, but we are required to be in constant remembrance of Allah.

I am inviting you to post your questions regarding Islam clarifications, discover islam or the general sections, because it seems you dont even know the basic information about islam and seem to have colored your opinions about Islam based on islamophobes and western orientals say about islam.

 

[SalamChristian]

All I get from people explaining about gospel is that "jesus loves you and died for your sins" and so you can live your life as you pleased.

That's not true Christianity. Catholics and Methodists have long emphasized that you do pay for your sins if you keep on sinning after you hear the Word/are shown your sin. John Wesley said that "the hottest places of hell are reserved for those who hear God's word do not fulfill all righteousness." Paul emphasizes it too. He says that if you keep sinning after you have truly received the message of Christ, then there are no more sacrafices for you--i.e. God will not be merciful to you.

Do the torah and gospel regulate personal and public hygiene and health? etc.

The Criterion is simple, as the Gospel and the Qu'ran BOTH testify. Remove sin from among you, forgive others, and pray for their salvation. Ibrahim did it. Muhammad (as) did it. The principle is sooo basic at its core, and it is ALL you need. As Jesus (pbuh) said, if your hand sins and you cannot stop it, cut it off. If your eye sins and you cannot stop it, pluck it out. If your brother sins, show him his sin, and if he refuses to recognize it, remove him from among you. And pray for your enemies, that they may find salvation if Allah pleases, and Allah knows best.

Allah will bring you a message concerning hygiene if he desires. And if you do not receive one, then surely he did not desire it, and you should not demand that he give you something which he chose not to do, for Allah knows best.

People these principles are really simple, in both of our religions. There is no need for this hate and this clinging on to that which is not divine. Allah most great, and he knows best.

I am inviting you to post your questions regarding Islam clarifications, discover islam or the general sections

Brother I have an Egyptian Sunni best friend here at college and another close Pakistani Shi'a friend. I ask them questions all the time. And I ask questions on this website too. I am constantly learning, and if you have something to show me then you will show me. If you don't show me, then surely it doesn't matter, for Allah is he who is the origin of all things and surely he knows best.

Peace

 

[Ramadhan]

No way! Someone on here was talking the other day about how one Hadith claims Muhammad (as) was short and overweight, which is a clear lie (all respect to Muhammad (pbuh)) Another Hadith clearly refutes it. NOTHING like that happens in the Gospels. It was a straight up insult to Muhammad (as) and hateful lie.

Please show us the hadith, who narrated it, who transmitted it, who recorded it, and the classifications of the hadith.
Muslims acknowledge that there are many false hadiths, but false and weak and doubtful hadith are clearly classified as being so.

The narrators, the transmitters, the charcters of all narrators and transmitters are examined and if there's even a blemish in the character, the hadith will be marked as doubtful. Also, one hadith that sayas the same thing may be narrated by as many persons as they were witnesses and transmitted by tehir students.
All these are meticuloulsy recorded and they are all still in the original language.
I can tell you who narrated and recorded and transmitted a praticular hadith, and this is true, historically and academically.

Can I ask you who wrote the gospel of mark? when it was written? what was the original language of the gospel? and the chain of transmissions?

I don't agree. Jibreel (as) testifies to their inherent Truthfulness, and that the problems are simply interpretational.

Can I ask you, which gospels that were written in first person story? I am not asking if God himself, but I only asked if any gospel were written from the point of view of Jesus (pbuh)?
You charged that ahadeeth are not words of God because they are accounts of the life of prophet Muhammad SAW, and I do agree.
Now, when I am applying the same standard that gospel contains the accounts of the life of prophet Jesus (pbuh), you reject, although it is your own standard.
Even then, the accounts of prophet Jesus (pbuh) as written in the gospel is extremely thin compared to the voluminous accounts of prophet Muhammad SAW as collected in the ahadeeth.

Do you know that christian scholars know prophet Muhammad life so much better so much more intimately than prophet Jesus' (pbuh)?

 

[SalamChristian]

Now, when I am applying the same standard that gospel contains the accounts of the life of prophet Jesus (pbuh), you reject, although it is your own standard.

My standard for the Gospel is that it is testified to in the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran testifies to the Truthfulness of the Injeel.

Muslims acknowledge that there are many false hadiths, but false and weak and doubtful hadith are clearly classified as being so. The narrators, the transmitters, the charcters of all narrators and transmitters are examined and if there's even a blemish in the character, the hadith will be marked as doubtful.

That's the problem with your whole framework for the Hadith. The Hadith have been debated on for nearly a thousand years. Changes have occurred in which were accepted, which were not, and how they were interpreted. To assume off the bat that the good ones are certainly known and the bad ones are certainly known is the wrong way to approach them. They are not divine, and your knowledge of which are acceptable and which aren't is also not divine, so you should not approach them with excess certainty.

Can I ask you who wrote the gospel of mark? when it was written? what was the original language of the gospel? and the chain of transmissions?

Brother we can go there, and I welcome the idea that Muslims might come to apply the same logic and criticism they apply to the Hadith to the Gospels. One of my majors is History, and I would enjoy that.

To be to the point, it isn't necessary. The earliest complete Bible we have was found in a Christian monastery in the Sinai Peninsula. It belongs to the Eastern Orthodox Church (closer to Muhammad). This same Monastery was written a letter by Muhammad (as) stating that he specifically gave them his peace and his protection and that anyone from the Ummah who might attack them or steal from them or harass their women or churches would surely suffer the hell fire. This Bible dates to 330 AD.

The Monastery is on holy ground, land mentioned in the Qu'ran.

Peace

P.S.

seem to have colored your opinions about Islam based on islamophobes and western orientals say about islam.

Nope. I have taken courses on Middle Eastern lit and read the thoughts of Muslims from Egypt to Saudi Arabia to Sudan to elsewhere. In fact, since you bring up "Orientalism," I actually read the groundbreaking book on it, written by Edward Said in 1978, titled Orientalism. I've of course read history of colonialism in the East too--All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of the Middle East Terror, for example. Actually, I was introduced to Islamic eschatology in the Salih's book, and I found out that it is identical to that described in the Bible. Like I said, my best friend is an Egyptian, and I prayed with him as he led the prayer on Ramadan last year, and all the other Muslims on campus. I've got mad love for the East, bro.

Salaam

 

[SalamChristian]

Omar and I spoke earlier tonight about this, in fact. I told him exactly what I told you here. His reply:

"Brother you are sooo right. ALL of the religions--Judaism, Christianity, Islam--ALL of them have been INSTITUTIONALIZED. People talk to each other and first thing they attack each others scriptures, and that is not good. It is not productive, and it causes divisions."

My response:
"It divides and it causes sects. And surely they who create sects are of the losers, and they will taste the hell fire."

His response:
"Ya dude, except in Arabic, the word for losers is much worse."

Shalom

 

[siam]

I agree. I am amazed at how the Qu'ran has challenged my views of the scripture, and consistently been correct according to an exegetical reading of my scriptures. This thread is just one example. It has been happening for the last 2 months since I started reading it, and it is downright eerie. When I started this thread, I didn't believe at all that Gabriel or Angels had a connection with the giving of the Holy Spirit, but now after this thread you see that it is clearly true for all to see. Clarity, that's what the Qu'ran promises. A clear book.

Corrected, however, is not the right word. The Torah and Injeel are not corrected, and that is not what the Qu'ran says. The MISINTERPRETATIONS of those DIVINE scriptures are corrected, and the true, clear interpretation is presented. The Qu'ran does not deny the inerrancy of the Bible, it affirms it.

Peace

I know what you are speaking about. I have also read (small) parts of the (Jewish)Torah and the NT with the Quranic perspective/view in mind---and I can agree that the Quran corrects many misinterpretations/misunderstandings----BUT it also completes the concepts by adding nuance and linking them to other concepts creating an interwoven whole---It is wholistic/complete. (Once you have clarified the concepts for yourself,---I hope you will move on to how they are all linked together---it is interesting)

However, though I can agree that there is wisdom in the Torah and the NT if interpreted correctly, I cannot agree to their inerrancy........particularly if the Tawheed is compromised.......however, an argument on this aspect may simply be distracting from what you are discovering..........

 

[siam]

@YO
"Dude, are you just disagreeing just because? Man..."
-----'fraid so...my apologies......just one of those days where one has to get ones entertainment where ever one can......

 

[YieldedOne]

YO:
Dude, are you just disagreeing just because? Man..."
Siam: 'fraid so...my apologies......just one of those days where one has to get ones entertainment where ever one can......

Ha! Figures...

:haha:

 

[YieldedOne]

SalamChristian:
Don't forget to include the other points I made about the nature of the Holy Spirit/laying on of hands & breathing of it onto people from others. Did you see that post? You said you weren't going to respond to it because of that one question, but now that we have resolved it, what are your thoughts on the other points about the Holy Spirit that I make in that post?


I want to make sure to get your main point down. This is what I have so far after the little "Then and Now" game...

"I am now going to make a very solid argument that the Holy Spirit resides within the Angel Gabriel, as it resides within Jesus and all other Holy beings, and that a great amount of textual evidence exists that Gabriel is the preferred transmitter of it from Heaven, and that he was the one who transmitted it onto Mary at the birth of Jesus."

Then I asked if you were formally disagreeing with the idea that the Holy Spirit was completely identical to the angel Gabriel. You responded thusly...

"Of course, I formally disagree with the claim that he has a monopoly on the role of "conduit of divine support," because the Holy Spirit can also be transmitted by believers on this earth and is transmitted by Jesus to the Apostles."

All I could get from all your stuff is as follows:

1) The angel Gabriel is NOT THE SAME THING as the Holy Spirit of God. The two are NOT to be conceptualized as identical.

2) It it biblically feasible that the angel Gabriel can be a mediator of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit towards others.

3) The angel Gabriel is NOT the sole mediator of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, as other humans can and do have this ability.

If the above 3 statements are true, then your particular answer to the question "Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?" is a big NO. In other words, you are FORMALLY DISAGREEING with the Islamic idea that the Holy Spirit nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel.

I want to make absolutely sure that I'm getting what you are saying clearly.

PS: If all you are saying is 1-3 above, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

[YieldedOne]

In my mind, Salam, the crux of the issue is the following: Is the claim that the Holy Spirit is NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN the Holy Spirit of God a true claim? So far, I hear you answering "NO."

If this is the case, then all the other stuff seems pretty moot. As you said, the title of this thread is "Is the Holy Spirit the Angel Gabriel?" All we are trying to do is answer that question. Saying that Gabriel may be a "preferred" vehicle for mediatorial activity between the Holy Spirit of God and other persons is simply not the claim that Islam makes when it says that Gabriel IS the Holy Spirit.

Do you agree to all this?

 

[SalamChristian]

1) The angel Gabriel is NOT THE SAME THING as the Holy Spirit of God. The two are NOT to be conceptualized as identical.

He doesn't have a monopoly on it. Jesus is also full of the Holy Spirit, as are the Apostles et cetera. However, I made a point about how the language of the Holy Spirit is also cryptic. Think of the mystic you quoted the other day: "there is nothing in my cloak but Allah." This is precisely how Psalm 51 describes the "emptying"--kenosis of Jesus on the cross. If a being is totally filled with the Holy Spirit, I think you could say they are "one" with the Holy Spirit Just a thought. But, do be clear, I DO NOT think that Gabriel is the absolute manifestation of the Holy Spirit (at this time, that seems impossible).

2) It it biblically feasible that the angel Gabriel can be a mediator of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit towards others. 3) The angel Gabriel is NOT the sole mediator of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, as other humans can and do have this ability.

Yes and yes. However, it is not only biblically feasible, it is the typical biblical method by which the Holy Spirit is transmitted. Daniel and Mary receive it from Gabriel. An angel gives it to John in Revelations. 12 Seraphim give it to the Apostles on Pentecost. And, as my analysis pointed, the evidence that an angel transmitted it at the Baptism of Jesus is compelling. From my reading of scripture, only Angels and Jesus bring the Holy Spirit from heaven. Humans, however, of course also have this ability. Paul transmits it, for example. The Apostles and other people function as a middle link--once it is brought to heaven they bring it to others.

"Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?" is a big NO.

Look to my answer for #1. It could be a mystical issue we are dealing with here. "That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" could lead us to a claim that a being filled with the Holy Spirit is one with the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is greater than any individual container.

In other words, you are FORMALLY DISAGREEING with the Islamic idea that the Holy Spirit nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel.

Yes. I am disagreeing with this interpretation. However, I'm not sure this is Qu'ranically supportable anyway. Gabriel says that he blows the Holy Spirit into Mary. Moreover, Allah is taken to be the author of the Qu'ran, so when it says "Our Spirit" you could argue it is talking about God's Spirit, not Gabriel's. There are Muslims who argue this direction.

Shalom

 

[SalamChristian]

Is the claim that the Holy Spirit is NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN the Holy Spirit of God a true claim? So far, I hear you answering "NO."

Correct. You can't say Nothing more or less. You might be able to say, though, that Gabriel is NOTHING MORE than a container for the Holy Spirit, just like all other Holy Beings, as God is all in all.

 

[SalamChristian]

Saying that Gabriel may be a "preferred" vehicle for mediatorial activity between the Holy Spirit of God and other persons is simply not the claim that Islam makes when it says that Gabriel IS the Holy Spirit. Do you agree to all this?

Again, that is providing that this is the claim that the Qu'ran makes, because the Qu'ran is the authority in Islam, and nothing else. There is not uniformity in Islam about this issue. There are Muslims who argue along differing lines regarding the relationship of the Holy Spirit and Gabriel. There is even a verse which recommends that people do not make conclusions about "The Spirit," because they have only been given a little knowledge of what it is.

Peace

 

[YieldedOne]

YO: In other words, you are FORMALLY DISAGREEING with the Islamic idea that the Holy Spirit nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel.

SC: Yes. I am disagreeing with this interpretation.

OK! That's what I wanted to know. Thanks!

****************************
SalamChristian:
There is not uniformity in Islam about this issue. There are Muslims who argue along differing lines regarding the relationship of the Holy Spirit and Gabriel.

What would you say is the MAJORITY perspective on the issue? In other words, what would MOST Islamic adherents claim about Gabriel being identical to the Holy Spirit?

 

[Thinker]

Why did God choose to deliver his message to Moses personally and in writing yet sent Gabriel to deliver the message to Muhammad and deliver it verbally and hope he remembered it correctly?

 

[YieldedOne]

Thinker:
Why did God choose to deliver his message to Moses personally and in writing yet sent Gabriel to deliver the message to Muhammad and deliver it verbally in trust to his memory?

Interesting question. VERY interesting question. Particularly if many (most) prophets in the Bible had direct encounters with God and direct words from God himself, not solely through an angel.

Good question.

 

[YieldedOne]

SalamChristian:
Yes. I am disagreeing with this interpretation. However, I'm not sure this is Qu'ranically supportable anyway.

Well, let's ask. Yo, yo! Siam. Naidamar. Woodrow. Whoever else. Is it Quranically supportable to say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more or less than the angel Jibreel?

Link #1

Link #2

Link #3

 

[SalamChristian]

Thinker: Why did God choose to deliver his message to Moses personally and in writing yet sent Gabriel to deliver the message to Muhammad and deliver it verbally in trust to his memory? Interesting question. VERY interesting question. Particularly if many (most) prophets in the Bible had direct encounters with God and direct words from God himself, not solely through an angel. Good question.

Maybe God had better things to do? lol. Gabriel spent 24 years with Muhammad (as), if not more. He was not only present at times of revelation, he also functioned as as a Guardian Angel. God just doesn't do anything like that in the OT. When he comes, it is to make drama--shock and awe.

Well, let's ask. Yo, yo! Siam. Naidamar. Woodrow. Whoever else. Is it Quranically supportable to say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more or less than the angel Jibreel?

Asking is totally fine with me, but it is not going to be sufficient. Now that the Qu'ran has taught us that Gabriel transmitted the Holy Spirit to Mary--and that our biblical scriptures have reaffirmed this account--I am not going to simply reject this issue in the Qu'ran without a sound exegesis of its texts. Moreover, I think any real Muslim would encourage you to read the Qu'ran for itself and to let it make its own impression on your mind:

I think such scholars have a point---so, in my opinion, when the Quran seems to use the words Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit interchangeably---it may be that the Holy Spirit expresses more of a "Quality"/Attribute..... Also---the Quran discourages speculation about the Holy Spirit/Spirit so there is not much anyone will find out directly about it except what is neccessary for understanding certain concepts....Generally, for all matters, Muslims rely on the Quran to explain itself...but, as the Quran says, aquiring knowledge always makes it easier to understand.....

Tempting as it may be to make brash conclusions about the Qu'ran so you can reject it and feel more easy about its flaws and the superiority of your own scripture, that would be a mistake. The Qu'ran has brought sound exegesis to the Bible today, and you owe it the respect to turn around and consider what it says in its own right. The Truth Will Set You Free--Veritas Liberabit Vos, as Jesus said.

Shalom

 

[YieldedOne]

SalamChristian:
Now that the Qu'ran has taught us that Gabriel transmitted the Holy Spirit to Mary...

Ok. You've read the Quran, apparently. Exactly WHERE and HOW does the Quran specify that Gabriel transmitted the Holy Spirit to Mary. Do NOT use any Bible verses. Just go by Quranic passages, please.

 

[SalamChristian]

"and kept herself in seclusion from them, whereupon We sent unto her Our angel of revelation, who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being . . . . [The angel] answered: 'I am but a messenger of thy Sustainer, [who says] 'I shall bestow upon thee the gift of a son endowed with purity.' [The angel] answered: 'Thus it is; [but] thy Sustainer says, 'This is easy for Me; and [thou shalt have a son,] so that We might make him a symbol unto mankind and an act of grace from Us. And it was a thing decreed [by God:]"

The "bestowed with purity" is actually Holy here. To bestow upon you a holy son (see Yusuf Ali's translation). It's actually amazing how identical the accounts are with our scriptures.

When Allah speaks of himself, he always does so in the plural, in Hebrew and Arabic. This is true of Genesis as well as the Qu'ran. The plurality does not imply many, but a divinity beyond human comprehension. "We did this, we did that." the Royal We--that's where we get that phrase, by the way. Thus Adonai means LORDS--while it is the substitute word for the ONE true God in Hebrew. Adonis is the singular.

"And her who gaurded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples. Verily, this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood and I am your Lord and Cherisher. But (later generations) cut off their affair (of unity), one from another; (yet) will they all return to Us."

Here it is in the plural. God is breathing the Spirit in, Gabriel is bestowing the son. Don't you see the interesting exegesis and relationship already developing here of the Qu'ran? My friend told me once, "Man, reading the Qu'ran in Arabic is like an antidote. It sucks the poison out."

Salaam