Jews and Christians are welcome to read the Quran and to use the deeper insights and higher spirituality gained, to clarify and/or correct existing misunderstandings or misinterpretations of their Holy books. HOWEVER, the Quran SHOULD NOT be used to validate already existing errors, misinterpretations, misunderstandings. Such use is to abuse the gift of knowledge/wisdom of the Quran.
Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?
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YieldedOne
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Siam:
Just wanted to point out--from my understanding, Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) and Spirit are not identical in Judaism.----
Ruach Hakodesh is the spirit of Prophethood and from what I understand, in Judaism, this spirit can also inspire Rabbis (though apparantly does not speak to them....(?))
and Ruach (Spirit or God's breath---is what in eastern religions is called "the spirit that animates"---Qi, Chi, Prana-etc.---also understood in eastern religions as breath/wind)
There is a distinction between the Holy Spirit and "spirit" in a general sense, yes. The Holy Spirit is NOT all spiritual reality per se. But the Spirit of God is involved in all of these processes though the distinction is there. And please notice that, per Judaism, it is still the Holy Spirit that is directly involved in prophethood, revelation, and knowledge of God.
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Siam:
Muslims tend to speak of Angel Gabriel when speaking about the revelation of Quran because it avoids undue/unnecessary speculation about the Holy Spirit which the Quran advises Muslims against. An understanding of the precise nature of the Holy Spirit is not really required to understand how the Quran was transmitted or to understand the nature of Jesus Christ(pbuh) therefore---it is best to refer to Angel Gabriel. IMO, speculation of whether Angel Gabriel is identical or only similar to the Holy Spirit would really be irrelevant to a Muslim in terms of understanding Quranic concepts.
1) Hmmm... It's one thing to simply things dealing with revelation by just focusing on the personal agent of revelation (ie Gabriel) rather than it's possible ground in the Spirit of God. It's a whole other thing to affirm to say the personal agent in question IS completely identical to the Spirit of God. From what I've been seeing around the internet, many (most) Muslims seem to say the latter. That is specifically peculiar given the fact that such an idea is completely absent in Judaism, both past and present.
2) I think that you are quite wrong on the idea that an understanding of the Holy Spirit is not really required to understand the nature of Jesus Christ. Even focusing on Messenger of God, Prophet, and "Anointed one" (Anointed with WHAT??) Why? Because if we really just try to look HISTORICALLY as Jesus in his Second Temple Jewish milieu--something I would hope that informed, intellectually honest people of all faiths attempt to do--you simply cannot do so WITHOUT looking at the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit. You'd have to completely take Jesus out of his historical context to do so. Then all you are left with is some personality that any ideologue can just do what they want with. You DEFINITELY cannot understand Jesus as mystic without looking at his relationship to the Spirit of God as Jews saw it.
3) Maybe it's just me, but I really don't dig merely looking at concepts of historical religious figures merely for the sake of maintaining a belief in some holy book. That's why I'm not a Christian fundamentalist who refuses to take a critical eye towards the Bible and it's issues for the mere sake of maintaining my faith (Like the longer and shorter endings of Mark, etc). If all we are doing is contouring our research and conversation to maintain and deepen what we already believe...I don't know how such a process can be anything but intellectually DIShonest and merely a sophisticated form of indoctrination. I've seen it so much in the evangelical Christianity that I was raised in it just sickens me. +o( You ask too many questions then its like "God's ways are higher than ours." or "Don't question God's Word." I'm like whatever...
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Siam:
Jews and Christians are welcome to read the Quran and to use the deeper insights and higher spirituality gained, to clarify and/or correct existing misunderstandings or misinterpretations of their Holy books. HOWEVER, the Quran SHOULD NOT be used to validate already existing errors, misinterpretations, misunderstandings. Such use is to abuse the gift of knowledge/wisdom of the Quran.
Here's my question. Are Muslims welcome to read the Quran critically examining it by the Judaic roots of their faith? I'm slowly getting the impression that that's out of bounds. There seems to be so much concern that the Quran will be affronted in some way...that true critical analysis of the relationship between Islam and Judaism is hindered. It really does seem that way. But maybe that's just me...
Just wanted to point out--from my understanding, Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) and Spirit are not identical in Judaism.----
Ruach Hakodesh is the spirit of Prophethood and from what I understand, in Judaism, this spirit can also inspire Rabbis (though apparantly does not speak to them....(?))
and Ruach (Spirit or God's breath---is what in eastern religions is called "the spirit that animates"---Qi, Chi, Prana-etc.---also understood in eastern religions as breath/wind)
There is a distinction between the Holy Spirit and "spirit" in a general sense, yes. The Holy Spirit is NOT all spiritual reality per se. But the Spirit of God is involved in all of these processes though the distinction is there. And please notice that, per Judaism, it is still the Holy Spirit that is directly involved in prophethood, revelation, and knowledge of God.
************************************
Siam:
Muslims tend to speak of Angel Gabriel when speaking about the revelation of Quran because it avoids undue/unnecessary speculation about the Holy Spirit which the Quran advises Muslims against. An understanding of the precise nature of the Holy Spirit is not really required to understand how the Quran was transmitted or to understand the nature of Jesus Christ(pbuh) therefore---it is best to refer to Angel Gabriel. IMO, speculation of whether Angel Gabriel is identical or only similar to the Holy Spirit would really be irrelevant to a Muslim in terms of understanding Quranic concepts.
1) Hmmm... It's one thing to simply things dealing with revelation by just focusing on the personal agent of revelation (ie Gabriel) rather than it's possible ground in the Spirit of God. It's a whole other thing to affirm to say the personal agent in question IS completely identical to the Spirit of God. From what I've been seeing around the internet, many (most) Muslims seem to say the latter. That is specifically peculiar given the fact that such an idea is completely absent in Judaism, both past and present.
2) I think that you are quite wrong on the idea that an understanding of the Holy Spirit is not really required to understand the nature of Jesus Christ. Even focusing on Messenger of God, Prophet, and "Anointed one" (Anointed with WHAT??) Why? Because if we really just try to look HISTORICALLY as Jesus in his Second Temple Jewish milieu--something I would hope that informed, intellectually honest people of all faiths attempt to do--you simply cannot do so WITHOUT looking at the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit. You'd have to completely take Jesus out of his historical context to do so. Then all you are left with is some personality that any ideologue can just do what they want with. You DEFINITELY cannot understand Jesus as mystic without looking at his relationship to the Spirit of God as Jews saw it.
3) Maybe it's just me, but I really don't dig merely looking at concepts of historical religious figures merely for the sake of maintaining a belief in some holy book. That's why I'm not a Christian fundamentalist who refuses to take a critical eye towards the Bible and it's issues for the mere sake of maintaining my faith (Like the longer and shorter endings of Mark, etc). If all we are doing is contouring our research and conversation to maintain and deepen what we already believe...I don't know how such a process can be anything but intellectually DIShonest and merely a sophisticated form of indoctrination. I've seen it so much in the evangelical Christianity that I was raised in it just sickens me. +o( You ask too many questions then its like "God's ways are higher than ours." or "Don't question God's Word." I'm like whatever...
***************************************
Siam:
Jews and Christians are welcome to read the Quran and to use the deeper insights and higher spirituality gained, to clarify and/or correct existing misunderstandings or misinterpretations of their Holy books. HOWEVER, the Quran SHOULD NOT be used to validate already existing errors, misinterpretations, misunderstandings. Such use is to abuse the gift of knowledge/wisdom of the Quran.
Here's my question. Are Muslims welcome to read the Quran critically examining it by the Judaic roots of their faith? I'm slowly getting the impression that that's out of bounds. There seems to be so much concern that the Quran will be affronted in some way...that true critical analysis of the relationship between Islam and Judaism is hindered. It really does seem that way. But maybe that's just me...
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YieldedOne
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Lemme backtrack a bit...
Siam:
There are some scholars who feel that the words used in the Quran are specifically chosen for their meaning. These scholars feel that if God had meant something as X, he would have chosen the word for X and if he had meant Y he would have chosen the word for Y. I think such scholars have a point---so, in my opinion, when the Quran seems to use the words Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit interchangeably---it may be that the Holy Spirit expresses more of a "Quality"/Attribute.....
1) Who are these scholars?
2) When you say "using the words Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit interchangably"...are you saying that there is an active distinction in play between the two in Islam...such that they are NOT seen asidentical? That seems to be the presupposition of your whole statement.
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Siam:
Also---the Quran discourages speculation about the Holy Spirit/Spirit so there is not much anyone will find out directly about it except what is neccessary for understanding certain concepts....Generally, for all matters, Muslims rely on the Quran to explain itself...but, as the Quran says, aquiring knowledge always makes it easier to understand.....
Can you provide the particular Quranic passages that specifically discourage speculation on the nature of the Holy Spirit? I'd like to make a running list.
Siam:
There are some scholars who feel that the words used in the Quran are specifically chosen for their meaning. These scholars feel that if God had meant something as X, he would have chosen the word for X and if he had meant Y he would have chosen the word for Y. I think such scholars have a point---so, in my opinion, when the Quran seems to use the words Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit interchangeably---it may be that the Holy Spirit expresses more of a "Quality"/Attribute.....
1) Who are these scholars?
2) When you say "using the words Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit interchangably"...are you saying that there is an active distinction in play between the two in Islam...such that they are NOT seen asidentical? That seems to be the presupposition of your whole statement.
**************************
Siam:
Also---the Quran discourages speculation about the Holy Spirit/Spirit so there is not much anyone will find out directly about it except what is neccessary for understanding certain concepts....Generally, for all matters, Muslims rely on the Quran to explain itself...but, as the Quran says, aquiring knowledge always makes it easier to understand.....
Can you provide the particular Quranic passages that specifically discourage speculation on the nature of the Holy Spirit? I'd like to make a running list.
---As explained above---the Quran itself discourages blind belief---(That was the problem with the Meccan Pagans and the people of Prophet Abraham(pbuh) they uncritically followed the "traditions of their fathers" even though such traditions were filled with error....) I do not consider Judasim or Christianity to be the "root" of Islam. They were previous prophets/revelations sent by God (Yes ---- the ONE God) However, the Quran itself is complete and correct in and of itself and stands on its own. It does not require Judaism or Christianity to interpret it. However, all knowledge is helpful in understanding the Quran, whether it is knowledge of previous revelations or science, philosophy, history...etc.....
Why this stance? Muslims believe errors have crept into the previous revelations therefore it would be inadvisable to use them to interpret the Quran. Why did God allow errors to distort the previous revelations?....because the responsibility of preserving those revelations was given to mankind. ---and mankind failed.
---I am not aware of any scholars specifically discussing the issue of the Holy Spirit with this in mind----The comment about X,Y was meant as a general statement in terms of understanding the Quran---that is, the idea that the words of the Quran are chosen carefully and deliberately. ---in this context, perhaps, Utube video by Br Nauman Ali Khan may be interesting (its given to a Muslim audience though)---its called Divine Speech Prologue.
---active distinction----I am not aware of any "active distinction" in Islamic scholarship---(Ofcourse, I am not a scholar myself, nor have I studied this issue in depth) However, if I were to accept that the Quran chooses words carefully, then it would stand to reason that if the Quran meant Angel Gabriel---it would have said so. That it adds the dimension of Holy Spirit, IN MY OPINION, may indicate a nuance. Such an understanding might be supported by the translation and tafsir by Yusuf Ali (particularly tafsir of Surah 70....)
to give some background---I was discussing the similarities about soul/spirituality between the Quran (and Islamic scholarship---particularly Al-Gazzali)and Judaism with a Jewish person when I came across the Jewish understanding that the Holy Spirit and Spirit are not identical. ---Such an understanding would not contradict the Quran IN MY OPINION.
SC has done a good job about the Muslim position of not speculating unnecessarily on the subject of Spirit (which I take it to be referring to all concepts of "Spirit" in the Quran)--there are also other more general verses about speculation as well. (This does not mean the Quran discourages healthy debate or seeking knowledge---it only discourages undue speculation that is not of benefit---Personally, I feel that discussions that are firmly rooted in Tawheed are fine.)
Ramadhan
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It seems your cover have been blown now.
You took the friendly username "salamchristian" in the usual christians missionaries deceitful way that they are friendly and respect Islam ,while the truth is they have nothing but hatred towards Islam because you/they know Islam is the truth.
Sadly, you may have more success being deceitful preaching christianity in really remote areas of developing countries. I guess you are only following paul/saul of tarsus who advocated deceit to preach to the gentiles.
Lately, you have been giving us youe views about Islam that you took from anti-Islam websites, hence the mods removed your sources, as your sources are nothing but pure lies, but I doubt you didnt know this.
Let me ask you, do you speak arabic? do you understand quranic arabic?
Let's see, I'll find refutation to expose the lies that you took from anti-Islam websites
I guess it took christians who are so obsessed with pornographic materials such as the bible to accuse that qur'an is also set at such extremely low standards.
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Ramadhan
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And Allah SWT has brought you the message via prophet Muhammad (SAW). I thought you acknowledge the propehthood of Muhammad SAW?
Or were you just being your deceitful-self?
You said this, and then you brought pure lies from sites which are clearly anti-Islam, which surely you knew.
Talk about hypocrisy.
christians should practice their "love, no hate" "let's kumbaya" instead of just talking about it. Starting from you.
Ramadhan
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Let me get this,
does this mean that you accept the Qur'an as being the truth and the word of God?
Allah SWT rebuked christians and jews who denied prophet Muhammad SAW, and told them that even in their maligned scriptures, they could still find the prophecy of Muhammad SAW.
Again, this is sign of christians missionaries who love nothing but to twist facts and words, I guess you inherited from early rabbis/priests who twisted the words of their own prophets, from Musa (as) down to isa (as).
You talked about earliest bible, what does this mean?
which bible are you talking about? the one with 66 books? 60? 70? which one?
Was the "bible" found written in the language that Isa (pbuh) spoke?
who wrote the bible found?
what was the chain of transmission?
How many bible versions are trying to sell that they are the "true" bible today?
Should christians use the "new world translation" bible, after all, it was expertly researched, wasnt it?
How about Good news bible?
Can you imagine if the earliest qur'an manuscript was from 1,000 AD, and that it was in persian, not in arabic, and no one was sure what the originals looked like, and no one knew who wrote which parts? and no tradition of memorisation was even existing?
Would you think it's still authentic?
I guess you can already see the truth, but since you prefer to keep clinging to your own desires and whims and made up belief that god is human, you deceive yourself.
the act by prophet Muhammad SAW to christians and jews were act of justice and kindness, he never said the belief that christians and jews were correct, in fact he rebuked the christians and jews.
And then you cited articles from an outright anti-Islamic website that you know is full of lies.
Your words hold very little weight.
Thats exactly what every orientalist said.
Thanks for confirming.
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Ali Mujahidin
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;DHow about the "wicked Bible"?
The 1631 KJV Bible that omitted a crucial word in one of the commandments so that it read;D"Thou shalt commit adultury"YieldedOne
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Siam:
my particular stance on this issue is that a Jewish understanding that the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Prophesy" does not conflict with what the Quran/Islam says. That this Holy Spirit is understood as same/similar to Angel Gabriel in Islam, does not create any problems in understanding either, since Angels Gabriel IS a messenger (The word for angel in Hebrew also means messenger). Muslims neither worship the Angel Gabriel , or the Holy Spirit as God.
I'm wondering why there is not problem, bro. Yes, the Jewish understanding of the Holy Spirit of God does involve it benig the "Spirit of Prophecy" that was upon all of the prophets. No Second Temple Jew would ever have denied that. But the idea that the Holy Spirit is the SAME as any particular angel is non-existent in what we know of Judaic theology, past and present. And the idea that the angel Gabriel is similar enough to the Jewish idea of the Holy Spirit simply because he's a messenger of God who aids divine revelation seems like a wrong logical leap. That is to effectively dismiss the problem based upon similarity of function...and that doesn't seem warranted. The major thing is that, from what I'm reading, many (most?) Islamic sources don't seem to say that the angel Gabriel is merely SIMILAR to the Holy Spirit, but in point of fact, is IDENTIFIED as the Holy Spirit. Basically, Gabriel and the Holy Spirit are seen as one and the same. Insofar as this perspective is seen as a legitimate Islamic perspective, it clashes radically with the Jewish understanding of the Holy Spirit. Note that we are not even talking about the later Christian idea of the Holy Spirit (ala third person of the Trinity) or anything like that. Actually, we could just as easily be specifically talking about solely Jewish concepts and resources here without any talk of Jesus at all...and we'd STILL have the issue.
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Siam:
From the Muslim Perspective, Prophet Jesus(pbuh) was a human being just like any other prophet before him. The details of his birth or the various aspects of his life do not detract from the fact that he was a human being---NOT GOD. Understanding the intricacies of the nature of the Holy Spirit and/or Angel Gabriel does not change the fact that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a human being who was a Prophet. Previous Prophets as well as Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) were strengthened with the Holy Spirit. It is not unusual other than that Prophet Jesus(pbuh) was given this at birth, whereas Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) for example, recieved it later in life....
We are not talking about Jesus being God. That line of thinking has absolutely no bearing or weight in what we are talking about here. We are talking about Jesus being a totally finite human being who was a prophet ONLY by the Holy Spirit of God, even in his own self-understanding. Jesus would have been very aware of the Jewish theology around divine revelation, prophecy, and wonderworking. He also would have been aware of the messianic claims of Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Joel. As a mystic (which even the most liberal of theologians will say), his historical life would have been centered on working with the Holy Spirit of God upon him. Why is this important? Simply because it is very highly unlikely that when Jesus (or his contemporaries) talked about the Holy Spirit of God...that they refered to any individual angel, let alone Gabriel. No Second Temple Jew woud have thought that the Holy Spirit that inspired Moses and all the rest of the Prophets and Teachers was nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel. No way. They would have thought of the Presence of God being "upon" an individual, working in and through that one for God's purposes. Basically, what I'm saying is this: honest observation of Jesus as a Jewish prophetic figure (and NOTHING MORE THAN THAT) cannot omit his belief in God's Spirit ala Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel. He wouldn't even qualify for being the Messiah AT ALL if that weren't the case.
Again, notice that none of this has anything to do with any claim of Jesus being God. This is simply looking at him through JUDAIC eyes. And that's all I'm asking to happen.
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YO: Here's my question. Are Muslims welcome to read the Quran critically examining it by the Judaic roots of their faith? I'm slowly getting the impression that that's out of bounds. There seems to be so much concern that the Quran will be affronted in some way...that true critical analysis of the relationship between Islam and Judaism is hindered. It really does seem that way. But maybe that's just me...
Siam: As explained above---the Quran itself discourages blind belief---(That was the problem with the Meccan Pagans and the people of Prophet Abraham(pbuh) they uncritically followed the "traditions of their fathers" even though such traditions were filled with error....) I do not consider Judasim or Christianity to be the "root" of Islam. They were previous prophets/revelations sent by God (Yes ---- the ONE God) However, the Quran itself is complete and correct in and of itself and stands on its own. It does not require Judaism or Christianity to interpret it. However, all knowledge is helpful in understanding the Quran, whether it is knowledge of previous revelations or science, philosophy, history...etc.....
Why this stance? Muslims believe errors have crept into the previous revelations therefore it would be inadvisable to use them to interpret the Quran. Why did God allow errors to distort the previous revelations?....because the responsibility of preserving those revelations was given to mankind. ---and mankind failed.
Ok. This is my thought. Let's say that we had a Judaism scholar who specialized in Second Temple Judaism, specifically expert on messianism of the time. Let's further say that this scholar HAPPENED to be Muslim. How would this professional academic scholar approach the Old Testament texts in his research? Would his Muslim sensibilities about "errors" in the text (qua the Quran's statements on such) condition his academic, intellectual integrity about what he found AS scholar? In other words, if he had all the data to know to get at the best possible sources that we have for all the OT texts...and he found them to be as historically viable as any other type of documents like that we use for historiographical purposes...would he STILL be functionally dismissive of the texts simply because the Quran said there were "errors"? My thought would be that this scholar would NOT be prejudiced against the OT texts simply because his belief in the Quran inclined him towards doing so. He would supposedly look at all the evidence FAIRLY and OBJECTIVELY and let the proverbial chips fall where it may. That's what academic, scholarly integrity is all about. And I bet that any Judaism scholar who looked at Islam would have to through out any sense of academic objectivity to deny that "roots" of Islam that are found in Judaism.
So, my thought is this: Can Muslims be ACADEMICALLY OBJECTIVE about the historical lines of thought that lead to the rise of Islam and Christianity from Judaism. If faith in the Quran itself NEGATES that ability, then that is very, very, VERY serious. And it implicitly says something about the faith itself. Don't you agree?
For example, if there was a scholar of Islamic studies who happened to be a Christian...who dismissed the historical data concerning the Quran because he felt like the Quran denied Jesus being the Son of God, that "scholar" would INSTANTLY lose all credibility and stature by his peers. Would the same thing happen for a scholar of Judaism who was Muslim?
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Siam:
I am not aware of any scholars specifically discussing the issue of the Holy Spirit with this in mind----The comment about X,Y was meant as a general statement in terms of understanding the Quran---that is, the idea that the words of the Quran are chosen carefully and deliberately. ---in this context, perhaps, Utube video by Br Nauman Ali Khan may be interesting (its given to a Muslim audience though)---its called Divine Speech Prologue.
I'll try to look for that on YouTube today. Thanks!
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Siam:
However, if I were to accept that the Quran chooses words carefully, then it would stand to reason that if the Quran meant Angel Gabriel---it would have said so. That it adds the dimension of Holy Spirit, IN MY OPINION, may indicate a nuance. Such an understanding might be supported by the translation and tafsir by Yusuf Ali (particularly tafsir of Surah 70....)
to give some background---I was discussing the similarities about soul/spirituality between the Quran (and Islamic scholarship---particularly Al-Gazzali)and Judaism with a Jewish person when I came across the Jewish understanding that the Holy Spirit and Spirit are not identical. ---Such an understanding would not contradict the Quran IN MY OPINION.
Well, that's just it: how representative of Islamic thought do you believe your opinion to be? Do MOST Muslims that you know make the allowance for nuance that you do? Or is the majority perspective that the angel Gabriel is nothing more or less that the Holy Spirit? The vast amount of discussion of this subject that I see online by Muslims seems to indicate to me that it is. If it is, then the issue is still rearing it's head.
Do many Muslims you know think like Nader here?
my particular stance on this issue is that a Jewish understanding that the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Prophesy" does not conflict with what the Quran/Islam says. That this Holy Spirit is understood as same/similar to Angel Gabriel in Islam, does not create any problems in understanding either, since Angels Gabriel IS a messenger (The word for angel in Hebrew also means messenger). Muslims neither worship the Angel Gabriel , or the Holy Spirit as God.
I'm wondering why there is not problem, bro. Yes, the Jewish understanding of the Holy Spirit of God does involve it benig the "Spirit of Prophecy" that was upon all of the prophets. No Second Temple Jew would ever have denied that. But the idea that the Holy Spirit is the SAME as any particular angel is non-existent in what we know of Judaic theology, past and present. And the idea that the angel Gabriel is similar enough to the Jewish idea of the Holy Spirit simply because he's a messenger of God who aids divine revelation seems like a wrong logical leap. That is to effectively dismiss the problem based upon similarity of function...and that doesn't seem warranted. The major thing is that, from what I'm reading, many (most?) Islamic sources don't seem to say that the angel Gabriel is merely SIMILAR to the Holy Spirit, but in point of fact, is IDENTIFIED as the Holy Spirit. Basically, Gabriel and the Holy Spirit are seen as one and the same. Insofar as this perspective is seen as a legitimate Islamic perspective, it clashes radically with the Jewish understanding of the Holy Spirit. Note that we are not even talking about the later Christian idea of the Holy Spirit (ala third person of the Trinity) or anything like that. Actually, we could just as easily be specifically talking about solely Jewish concepts and resources here without any talk of Jesus at all...and we'd STILL have the issue.
*****************************
Siam:
From the Muslim Perspective, Prophet Jesus(pbuh) was a human being just like any other prophet before him. The details of his birth or the various aspects of his life do not detract from the fact that he was a human being---NOT GOD. Understanding the intricacies of the nature of the Holy Spirit and/or Angel Gabriel does not change the fact that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a human being who was a Prophet. Previous Prophets as well as Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) were strengthened with the Holy Spirit. It is not unusual other than that Prophet Jesus(pbuh) was given this at birth, whereas Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) for example, recieved it later in life....
We are not talking about Jesus being God. That line of thinking has absolutely no bearing or weight in what we are talking about here. We are talking about Jesus being a totally finite human being who was a prophet ONLY by the Holy Spirit of God, even in his own self-understanding. Jesus would have been very aware of the Jewish theology around divine revelation, prophecy, and wonderworking. He also would have been aware of the messianic claims of Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Joel. As a mystic (which even the most liberal of theologians will say), his historical life would have been centered on working with the Holy Spirit of God upon him. Why is this important? Simply because it is very highly unlikely that when Jesus (or his contemporaries) talked about the Holy Spirit of God...that they refered to any individual angel, let alone Gabriel. No Second Temple Jew woud have thought that the Holy Spirit that inspired Moses and all the rest of the Prophets and Teachers was nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel. No way. They would have thought of the Presence of God being "upon" an individual, working in and through that one for God's purposes. Basically, what I'm saying is this: honest observation of Jesus as a Jewish prophetic figure (and NOTHING MORE THAN THAT) cannot omit his belief in God's Spirit ala Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel. He wouldn't even qualify for being the Messiah AT ALL if that weren't the case.
Again, notice that none of this has anything to do with any claim of Jesus being God. This is simply looking at him through JUDAIC eyes. And that's all I'm asking to happen.
***************************************
YO: Here's my question. Are Muslims welcome to read the Quran critically examining it by the Judaic roots of their faith? I'm slowly getting the impression that that's out of bounds. There seems to be so much concern that the Quran will be affronted in some way...that true critical analysis of the relationship between Islam and Judaism is hindered. It really does seem that way. But maybe that's just me...
Siam: As explained above---the Quran itself discourages blind belief---(That was the problem with the Meccan Pagans and the people of Prophet Abraham(pbuh) they uncritically followed the "traditions of their fathers" even though such traditions were filled with error....) I do not consider Judasim or Christianity to be the "root" of Islam. They were previous prophets/revelations sent by God (Yes ---- the ONE God) However, the Quran itself is complete and correct in and of itself and stands on its own. It does not require Judaism or Christianity to interpret it. However, all knowledge is helpful in understanding the Quran, whether it is knowledge of previous revelations or science, philosophy, history...etc.....
Why this stance? Muslims believe errors have crept into the previous revelations therefore it would be inadvisable to use them to interpret the Quran. Why did God allow errors to distort the previous revelations?....because the responsibility of preserving those revelations was given to mankind. ---and mankind failed.
Ok. This is my thought. Let's say that we had a Judaism scholar who specialized in Second Temple Judaism, specifically expert on messianism of the time. Let's further say that this scholar HAPPENED to be Muslim. How would this professional academic scholar approach the Old Testament texts in his research? Would his Muslim sensibilities about "errors" in the text (qua the Quran's statements on such) condition his academic, intellectual integrity about what he found AS scholar? In other words, if he had all the data to know to get at the best possible sources that we have for all the OT texts...and he found them to be as historically viable as any other type of documents like that we use for historiographical purposes...would he STILL be functionally dismissive of the texts simply because the Quran said there were "errors"? My thought would be that this scholar would NOT be prejudiced against the OT texts simply because his belief in the Quran inclined him towards doing so. He would supposedly look at all the evidence FAIRLY and OBJECTIVELY and let the proverbial chips fall where it may. That's what academic, scholarly integrity is all about. And I bet that any Judaism scholar who looked at Islam would have to through out any sense of academic objectivity to deny that "roots" of Islam that are found in Judaism.
So, my thought is this: Can Muslims be ACADEMICALLY OBJECTIVE about the historical lines of thought that lead to the rise of Islam and Christianity from Judaism. If faith in the Quran itself NEGATES that ability, then that is very, very, VERY serious. And it implicitly says something about the faith itself. Don't you agree?
For example, if there was a scholar of Islamic studies who happened to be a Christian...who dismissed the historical data concerning the Quran because he felt like the Quran denied Jesus being the Son of God, that "scholar" would INSTANTLY lose all credibility and stature by his peers. Would the same thing happen for a scholar of Judaism who was Muslim?
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Siam:
I am not aware of any scholars specifically discussing the issue of the Holy Spirit with this in mind----The comment about X,Y was meant as a general statement in terms of understanding the Quran---that is, the idea that the words of the Quran are chosen carefully and deliberately. ---in this context, perhaps, Utube video by Br Nauman Ali Khan may be interesting (its given to a Muslim audience though)---its called Divine Speech Prologue.
I'll try to look for that on YouTube today. Thanks!
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Siam:
However, if I were to accept that the Quran chooses words carefully, then it would stand to reason that if the Quran meant Angel Gabriel---it would have said so. That it adds the dimension of Holy Spirit, IN MY OPINION, may indicate a nuance. Such an understanding might be supported by the translation and tafsir by Yusuf Ali (particularly tafsir of Surah 70....)
to give some background---I was discussing the similarities about soul/spirituality between the Quran (and Islamic scholarship---particularly Al-Gazzali)and Judaism with a Jewish person when I came across the Jewish understanding that the Holy Spirit and Spirit are not identical. ---Such an understanding would not contradict the Quran IN MY OPINION.
Well, that's just it: how representative of Islamic thought do you believe your opinion to be? Do MOST Muslims that you know make the allowance for nuance that you do? Or is the majority perspective that the angel Gabriel is nothing more or less that the Holy Spirit? The vast amount of discussion of this subject that I see online by Muslims seems to indicate to me that it is. If it is, then the issue is still rearing it's head.
Do many Muslims you know think like Nader here?
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YieldedOne
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Wikipedia: Judaism and Islam...
The historical interaction of Judaism and Islam started in the 7th century CE with the origin and spread of Islam in the Arabian peninsula. The two religions share similar values, guidelines, and principles. Islam also incorporates Jewish history as a part of its own. Muslims regard the Children of Israel as a central religious concept in Islam. This is evident by Moses being mentioned in the Qur’an more than any other prophet (including Mohammad) and the Exodus being the most recurring theme. There are approximately forty-three references to the Israelites in the Quran (excluding individual prophets), and many in the Hadith. From the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, until the present, the history of Judaism has spanned approximately 3400 years. For the first 2000 years of this history Islam was not in existence. As a result there is no discussion of Islam in the founding texts of Judaism. However, later rabbinic authorities and Jewish scholars such as Maimonides discuss the relationship between Islam and Jewish law extensively.
Because Islam has its foundation in Judaism and they share a common origin in the Middle East through Abraham, both are considered Abrahamic religions. There are many shared aspects between Judaism and Islam; Islam was strongly influenced by Judaism in its fundamental religious outlook, structure, jurisprudence and practice. Because of this, as well as through the influence of Muslim culture and philosophy on the Jewish community within the Islamic world, there has been considerable and continued physical, theological, and political overlap between the two faiths in the subsequent 1,400 years.
The historical interaction of Judaism and Islam started in the 7th century CE with the origin and spread of Islam in the Arabian peninsula. The two religions share similar values, guidelines, and principles. Islam also incorporates Jewish history as a part of its own. Muslims regard the Children of Israel as a central religious concept in Islam. This is evident by Moses being mentioned in the Qur’an more than any other prophet (including Mohammad) and the Exodus being the most recurring theme. There are approximately forty-three references to the Israelites in the Quran (excluding individual prophets), and many in the Hadith. From the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, until the present, the history of Judaism has spanned approximately 3400 years. For the first 2000 years of this history Islam was not in existence. As a result there is no discussion of Islam in the founding texts of Judaism. However, later rabbinic authorities and Jewish scholars such as Maimonides discuss the relationship between Islam and Jewish law extensively.
Because Islam has its foundation in Judaism and they share a common origin in the Middle East through Abraham, both are considered Abrahamic religions. There are many shared aspects between Judaism and Islam; Islam was strongly influenced by Judaism in its fundamental religious outlook, structure, jurisprudence and practice. Because of this, as well as through the influence of Muslim culture and philosophy on the Jewish community within the Islamic world, there has been considerable and continued physical, theological, and political overlap between the two faiths in the subsequent 1,400 years.
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YieldedOne
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Thus, it is simply NOT TRUE that Judaism is not "ancestral" to Islam. You don't even have to be a scholar to see THAT.
So...given this "ancestral" relationship of Judaism to Islam...and if it is true that a legitimate Islamic interpretation that the Holy Spirit of God is to be completely identified with the angel Gabriel, then either one of two things has happened:
1) Judaism has had it's doctrine about the Holy Spirit of God absolutely WRONG all these years, even unto this day, by never stating such a thing...and Islam (via the Quran) has corrected that theological error.
or...
2) Islam has possibly MISUNDERSTOOD the Jewish concept of the Holy Spirit, effectively allowing for an interpretation where the Holy Spirit has been reduced to only a particular angel (Gabriel).
As I see it, one of these two things has to be true. Now, can this question be OBJECTIVELY asked and answered by Islamic adherents who are academically able to do so?
So...given this "ancestral" relationship of Judaism to Islam...and if it is true that a legitimate Islamic interpretation that the Holy Spirit of God is to be completely identified with the angel Gabriel, then either one of two things has happened:
1) Judaism has had it's doctrine about the Holy Spirit of God absolutely WRONG all these years, even unto this day, by never stating such a thing...and Islam (via the Quran) has corrected that theological error.
or...
2) Islam has possibly MISUNDERSTOOD the Jewish concept of the Holy Spirit, effectively allowing for an interpretation where the Holy Spirit has been reduced to only a particular angel (Gabriel).
As I see it, one of these two things has to be true. Now, can this question be OBJECTIVELY asked and answered by Islamic adherents who are academically able to do so?
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YieldedOne
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Hmmmm....this sews it up right here...
From The Holy Quran by Maulana Muhammad Ali...
It should be noted that the Quran uses the words Holy Spirit and Gabriel interchangeably. In one of the reports speaking of the first revelation to the Prophet the angel who brought the revelation is called al-Namus al-Akbar, or the great Namus, and Namus means the angel who is entrusted with Divine secrets (N.); the Divine secrets, of course, being the Divine messages to humanity sent through the prophets of God. The same report adds that it was the same angel that brought revelation to Moses. Thus both the Quran and the reports make it clear that Divine revelation was brought to the Prophet, as well as to the prophets before him, by the angel Gabriel who is also called the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit or the great Namus. This clears up all doubts as to what is meant by the Holy Spirit in Islam; and in the mouths of the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus Christ, it carried exactly the same significance. It is true that there is not the same clarity here as in Islam; but it is equally true that the orthodox Christian conception of the Holy Spirit was quite unknown to the Jewish mind, and in this respect Jesus Christ was a staunch Jew, his terminology being taken in its entirety from the Jews.
Did y'all get that? Basically, Maududi is saying that the conclusion that Gabriel IS the Holy Spirit is NOT CLEARLY SEEN in the Judaic view (supposedly) as it is in Islam. Basically, he's admitting that it WASN'T THERE. Y'all see this, right? Saying that the Jews didn't have a Christian view of the Holy Spirit doesn't make up for this.
So it seems that Mr. Maududi would take the route that Islam "clarified" that which was left "less clear" concerning the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit. This is a euphemistic way of saying that that Judaism had the concept WRONG...and Islam straightened it out.
Now THAT seems pretty convenient, now, doesn't it? Real talk, yo! :shade:
From The Holy Quran by Maulana Muhammad Ali...
It should be noted that the Quran uses the words Holy Spirit and Gabriel interchangeably. In one of the reports speaking of the first revelation to the Prophet the angel who brought the revelation is called al-Namus al-Akbar, or the great Namus, and Namus means the angel who is entrusted with Divine secrets (N.); the Divine secrets, of course, being the Divine messages to humanity sent through the prophets of God. The same report adds that it was the same angel that brought revelation to Moses. Thus both the Quran and the reports make it clear that Divine revelation was brought to the Prophet, as well as to the prophets before him, by the angel Gabriel who is also called the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit or the great Namus. This clears up all doubts as to what is meant by the Holy Spirit in Islam; and in the mouths of the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus Christ, it carried exactly the same significance. It is true that there is not the same clarity here as in Islam; but it is equally true that the orthodox Christian conception of the Holy Spirit was quite unknown to the Jewish mind, and in this respect Jesus Christ was a staunch Jew, his terminology being taken in its entirety from the Jews.
Did y'all get that? Basically, Maududi is saying that the conclusion that Gabriel IS the Holy Spirit is NOT CLEARLY SEEN in the Judaic view (supposedly) as it is in Islam. Basically, he's admitting that it WASN'T THERE. Y'all see this, right? Saying that the Jews didn't have a Christian view of the Holy Spirit doesn't make up for this.
So it seems that Mr. Maududi would take the route that Islam "clarified" that which was left "less clear" concerning the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit. This is a euphemistic way of saying that that Judaism had the concept WRONG...and Islam straightened it out.
Now THAT seems pretty convenient, now, doesn't it? Real talk, yo! :shade:
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YieldedOne
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Now, here's where things get crazy. Mr. Maududi says that to the Old Testament prophets (and Jesus himself) it had EXACTLY the same meaning. Basically, saying that ALL of the Old Testament prophets and Jesus believed that the Holy Spirit was NOTHING OTHER THAN the angel Gabriel.
But...
How does he explains how David (a prophet) described the Holy Spirit in his Psalms?
Part of Psalm 139
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
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Part of Psalm 51
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
Ok. Anyone who knows Hebrew parallelism (particularly in poetry literature) KNOWS how this works. Basically, the second statement is a RESTATEMENT of the first such that in this case, "your presence" is related to and restated as "your Holy Spirit" in Psalms 51. Same way between "your Spirit" and "your presence" in Psalms 139. Any people here that know Hebrew can corroborate my take on this!
So in these two passages where David SPECIFICALLY ASSOCIATES the Holy Spirit of God with God's OWN PRESENCE...what he really and intentionally meant was NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN the individual angel, Gabriel?
Is that really what we are supposed to believe?
But...
How does he explains how David (a prophet) described the Holy Spirit in his Psalms?
Part of Psalm 139
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
----------------------
Part of Psalm 51
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
Ok. Anyone who knows Hebrew parallelism (particularly in poetry literature) KNOWS how this works. Basically, the second statement is a RESTATEMENT of the first such that in this case, "your presence" is related to and restated as "your Holy Spirit" in Psalms 51. Same way between "your Spirit" and "your presence" in Psalms 139. Any people here that know Hebrew can corroborate my take on this!
So in these two passages where David SPECIFICALLY ASSOCIATES the Holy Spirit of God with God's OWN PRESENCE...what he really and intentionally meant was NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN the individual angel, Gabriel?
Is that really what we are supposed to believe?
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YieldedOne
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And David is seen as an ISLAMIC PROPHET in the Quran, right?
Be patient over what they say and remember Our servant, David, the possessor of strength; indeed, he was one who repeatedly turned back [to Allah ]. Indeed, We subjected the mountains [to praise] with him, exalting [ Allah ] in the [late] afternoon and [after] sunrise. And the birds were assembled, all with him repeating [praises]. And We strengthened his kingdom and gave him wisdom and discernment in speech.
Surah 38:17-20
Your Lord is most knowing of you. If He wills, He will have mercy upon you; or if He wills, He will punish you. And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], over them as a manager. And your Lord is most knowing of whoever is in the heavens and the earth. And We have made some of the prophets exceed others [in various ways], and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].
Surah 17:57-58
Be patient over what they say and remember Our servant, David, the possessor of strength; indeed, he was one who repeatedly turned back [to Allah ]. Indeed, We subjected the mountains [to praise] with him, exalting [ Allah ] in the [late] afternoon and [after] sunrise. And the birds were assembled, all with him repeating [praises]. And We strengthened his kingdom and gave him wisdom and discernment in speech.
Surah 38:17-20
Your Lord is most knowing of you. If He wills, He will have mercy upon you; or if He wills, He will punish you. And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], over them as a manager. And your Lord is most knowing of whoever is in the heavens and the earth. And We have made some of the prophets exceed others [in various ways], and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].
Surah 17:57-58
aadil77
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Islam and Judaism are similar because they're from the same God. We believe one faith became corrupted and the other did not, we don't believe that islam took any inspiration from any previous faiths.
Everything we have is from new revelation, not from previous.
YieldedOne
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aadil77:
Islam and Judaism are similar because they're from the same God. We believe one faith became corrupted and the other did not, we don't believe that islam took any inspiration from any previous faiths. Everything we have is from new revelation, not from previous.
Ok. Is is it for us to look at this not from a position of FAITH per se, but from the position of OBJECTIVE MINDS just looking at all the data we have? Basically, is it possible for us to examine these things from a religiously UNBIASED persepctive...and see where things lead?
Seriously. Let's all pretend that we are in a LIBERAL ARTS UNIVERSITY COURSE on this stuff. Lets' call it: "Judaism and Islam: Historical Perspective" Let's say that we are all MA students in this class. How would go about looking at these things? What kind of presuppositions would we SUSPEND in looking at the material? How would we allow for (and make adjustments of) our religious biases such that we could actually produce quality ACADEMIC WORK in that context?
I know as a Christian, I'd have to suspend the idea of Islam "being wrong" simply because they deny Jesus as Son of God. There's no way I could bring that bias into the class and still be as OBJECTIVE AS POSSIBLE in looking at all of the data between Judaism and Islam.
THAT'S the type of mentality I'd like us to take towards this.
Islam and Judaism are similar because they're from the same God. We believe one faith became corrupted and the other did not, we don't believe that islam took any inspiration from any previous faiths. Everything we have is from new revelation, not from previous.
Ok. Is is it for us to look at this not from a position of FAITH per se, but from the position of OBJECTIVE MINDS just looking at all the data we have? Basically, is it possible for us to examine these things from a religiously UNBIASED persepctive...and see where things lead?
Seriously. Let's all pretend that we are in a LIBERAL ARTS UNIVERSITY COURSE on this stuff. Lets' call it: "Judaism and Islam: Historical Perspective" Let's say that we are all MA students in this class. How would go about looking at these things? What kind of presuppositions would we SUSPEND in looking at the material? How would we allow for (and make adjustments of) our religious biases such that we could actually produce quality ACADEMIC WORK in that context?
I know as a Christian, I'd have to suspend the idea of Islam "being wrong" simply because they deny Jesus as Son of God. There's no way I could bring that bias into the class and still be as OBJECTIVE AS POSSIBLE in looking at all of the data between Judaism and Islam.
THAT'S the type of mentality I'd like us to take towards this.
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