Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?

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I'll bring this back. Repost remix...

If Maulana Maududi's interpretation of the Holy Spirit is a legitimate Islamic interpretation (ie. the Holy Spirit of God is to be completely identified with the angel Gabriel), then either one of two things has happened:

1) Judaism has had it's doctrine about the Holy Spirit of God inaccurate all these years--even unto this day--by never stating such a thing in any of it's literature...and Islam (via the Maududi's commentary on the Quran) has "clarified" that theological error. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia, with all of it's scholarship, was inaccurate on this.

or...

2) Mr. Maududi had possibly misunderstood the Jewish concept of the Holy Spirit held by the Old Testamaent prophets and Jesus, effectively allowing for an interpretation where the Holy Spirit is seen as nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel. This could have been done by effectively conflating the Jewish "angel of his presence" or "angel of the Lord" with the angel Gabriel.

Given all of the data we have currently, which option appears to have more historical support backing it?

Please note that I am NOT denying Muhammad's angelic visit by Gabriel at ALL. Nor am I asserting the the Holy Spirit is some kind of person ala trinitarianism. ALL OF THAT is extraneous to this conversation and this thread's intent. The only thing that's being considered, at this point, is whether or not it's true that the term "Holy Spirit" had the "exactly the same significance" to the OT Prophets and Jesus...as it did to Muhammad (and Maududi), such all parties believed that the Holy Spirit was equivalent to the angel Gabriel.

I just wanna keep focus with this.
 
Ok, dear readers. If you don't want to comment on the thread (for whatever reason), is it possible that you could private message me your thoughts on all this? I'll keep all comments confidential. Promise. I'd just like SOME feedback. Both Christians and Muslims.

The silence is deafening. :nervous:
 
Yes the silence is deafening. That often happens when the readers feel the original question has been answered. You actually have 3 somewhat incomparable answers here. The Muslim answer, the Christian answer and to a lesser degree the Jewish answer. It is impossible to reach a single conclusion as there is no full acceptance as to what are reliable sources for searching verification.

For Us who are Muslim it is simple the answer is: The "Holy Spirit" when thought of as being an entity is the Angel Jibreel. Nothing left to add to that
 
Woodrow:
Yes the silence is deafening. That often happens when the readers feel the original question has been answered. You actually have 3 somewhat incomparable answers here. The Muslim answer, the Christian answer and to a lesser degree the Jewish answer. It is impossible to reach a single conclusion as there is no full acceptance as to what are reliable sources for searching verification.

For Us who are Muslim it is simple the answer is: The "Holy Spirit" when thought of as being an entity is the Angel Jibreel. Nothing left to add to that

1) THANKS for the response! Glad it's you, too. :D

2) I'll ask this again, brothers and sisters. Let's PLEASE take "Christian" out of this. That does nothing but obscure the real issue. We are not dealing with Christian doctrine on Gabriel or the Holy Spirit in the least here right now. I am specifically talking about Jewish doctrine and belief right now. I repeat, we are not discussing the Christian perspective of either the Holy Spirit or Gabriel.

3) The rational question at hand is being posed: Is Mr. Maududi's claim that the term "Holy Spirit" had "exactly the same significance" to the Old Testament prophets and Jesus as what it means in Islam: the angel Gabriel...a historically credible claim? Is this not a fair question? (Side thought: If interfaith dialogue (atheist/Muslim; Jew/Muslim) cannot engage this historically-based question, doesn't that seem to be a serious limitation?)

4) What is the "lesser degree" Jewish perspective that we have so far, brother Woodrow? THAT'S the seat of the question right there! Is there evidence to suggest that the Jewish perspective of Gabriel and the Holy Spirit has the two concepts identified? That is to say, does what we can tell about Jewish views on the Holy Spirit AND Jewish angelology CONFIRM or DISCONFIRM Mr. Maududi's historically-based claim about what the Old Testament Prophets and Jesus believed?

5) You mentioned that "there is no full acceptance as to what are reliable sources for searching verification." Which of these sources do you believe to be unreliable? If you please, detail WHY it's unreliable. That would help me tremendously.

--Hebrew version of Torah, Prophets, and Writings
--Maududi's "The Religion of Islam", Section: "The Holy Quran"
--Articles in Jewish Encyclopedia ("The Holy Spirit"; "Angelology" )
--"The Spirit in First-Century Judaism" by John R. Levison (cited in Wikipedia)


6) My assumption is that everyone who is interested in this question wants to know truth about it. That's all we're after here...right? Woodrow said...

For Us who are Muslim it is simple the answer is: The "Holy Spirit" when thought of as being an entity is the Angel Jibreel. Nothing left to add to that.

I think there is, bro. You know as well as I do that it is either TRUE or NOT TRUE that the "Holy Spirit" actually IS the Angel Jibreel (Gabriel). But I leave that ultimate question open. I will concede that the Islamic perspective just is what it is, quranically speaking. Not negating that, ok?

But you also know as well as I do that it is either TRUE or NOT TRUE that the OT Prophets and Jesus had exactly the same beliefs about the angel Gabriel being the Holy Spirit as Islam does. This is a historically verifiable claim that is being made. It doesn't negate Muslim FAITH to answer this question. It would seem to me that all of the information we have about Jewish views on angelology and the Holy Spirit seems to stand as distinct from Islamic claims. Which is why I mention the two options above. Either Maududi's correct...and the Jewish theology, even it's most scholastic adherents, has been at best misinformed upon and/or misunderstanding that subject up unto even current day. OR Madudi's incorrect, possibly by a conflation of the "angel of His Presence" with Jibreel (Gabriel), who "stands in the Presence of God."

What wrong with saying that Jewish theology and angelology has been "unclear" in that area...until Islam "clarified" it for them? That's pretty much what Maududi says anyways.

What's wrong with saying that Mr. Maududi's historically-based claim about the OT Prophets and Jesus is, at best, historically unjustifiable? How does that cause any problems?
 
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Basically, all I guess I'm claiming is that it is not historically demonstrable or justifiable that Jewish believers in general (and the OT Prophets and Jesus, in particular) actually believed that Gabriel (Jibreel) was the "Holy Spirit" spoken about in Psalm 51:11 and Isaiah 63:10...against Maulana Maududi's claim that they did believe so.
 
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Yielded One,
I'm sorry, but you won't be able to take the Christian view out of the question because its a Christian dogma not a Jewish one. I think the best thing to do would be to close this thread. You know the muslim answer, and the christian one.

Peace be with you.
 
In simplest terms we do not know what is true in the bible or the torah unless it is also found in the Qur'an. We do believe the original scriptures that were followed by the Jews and Christians do not exist in their original form, therefore can not be verified.

In an over simplification If you look at how Jews and Muslims define the words Spirit and Holy, the Angel Jibreel is a "Holy Spirit"

I do not see any conflict between us in the view of Jibreel being a Holy Spirit. if there is any conflict it is over if we can call other things the Holy spirit or if it applies to Jibreel alone. Just my opinion I see it as applying to other things also, such as the Knowledge we gain from Allaah(swt), the feeling we sometimes get when we desire to do good.

I do agree with Mr. Maududi, but that is based upon opinion not proven fact.

A short summation the entity that spoke to the Prophets(PBUT) was in most if not all cases Jibreel.
 
gmcbroom:
I'm sorry, but you won't be able to take the Christian view out of the question because its a Christian dogma not a Jewish one. I think the best thing to do would be to close this thread. You know the muslim answer, and the christian one.

Welcome, gmcbroom! I'm afraid I don't understand what you've just said. What is a "Christian dogma not a Jewish one."? I don't know specifically to what you refer. Does the "dogma" you mention deal with the Holy Spirit and the angel Gabriel. I'm very unclear about what you mean.

But let's be clear about this. The answers we seek deal with the Muslim answer and the JEWISH answer. Christianity's not in this at all right now.
 
Woodrow:
A short summation: the entity that spoke to the Prophets(PBUT) was in most if not all cases Jibreel.

EXCELLENT SUMATION! I'm saying that it's not historically justifiable to say that that Judaism in general (and OT Prophets and Jesus in particular) actually believed that, against Maududi's claims.

Great summation. :D

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Woodrow:
In simplest terms we do not know what is true in the bible or the torah unless it is also found in the Qur'an. We do believe the original scriptures that were followed by the Jews and Christians do not exist in their original form, therefore can not be verified.

Ah, but the main texts of the Hebrew Scriptures in question are the one Maududi bring up HIMSELF. Surely we can look at those texts that Maulana Maududi says are valid to look at, right?

"It should be noted that the Quran uses the words Holy Spirit and Gabriel interchangeably. In one of the reports speaking of the first revelation to the Prophet the angel who brought the revelation is called al-Namus al-Akbar, or the great Namus, and Namus means the angel who is entrusted with Divine secrets (N.); the Divine secrets, of course, being the Divine messages to humanity sent through the prophets of God. The same report adds that it was the same angel that brought revelation to Moses. Thus both the Quran and the reports make it clear that Divine revelation was brought to the Prophet, as well as to the prophets before him, by the angel Gabriel who is also called the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit or the great Namus. This clears up all doubts as to what is meant by the Holy Spirit in Islam; and in the mouths of the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus Christ, it carried exactly the same significance. It is true that there is not the same clarity here as in Islam; but it is equally true that the orthodox Christian conception of the Holy Spirit was quite unknown to the Jewish mind, and in this respect Jesus Christ was a staunch Jew, his terminology being taken in its entirety from the Jews. In the Old Testament terminology, the form used is the Spirit or the spirit of God. In Ps 51:11 and Is. 63:10, the form used is Holy Spirit which is also the form adopted in the Talmud and Midrash."
--Maulana Maududi




***************************************

Woodrow:
I do not see any conflict between us in the view of Jibreel being a Holy Spirit. if there is any conflict it is over if we can call other things the Holy spirit or if it applies to Jibreel alone. Just my opinion I see it as applying to other things also, such as the Knowledge we gain from Allaah(swt), the feeling we sometimes get when we desire to do good.

Your bolded part is absolutely right. That IS what the conflict is. Mr. Maududi says that is ONLY applies to Jibreel...and he cites the Pslams and Isaiah in his commentary breakdown. So your opinion differs with his on that, yes?
 
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I apologize Yielded One I misspoke. I should have said Catholic dogma. I believe there are Oneness Christians such as Pentacostals, and Jehova's Witnesses that may be able to give you there answer. As for the Jewish answer I just registered at a Jewish forum and if they accept it then I'll post a Question there to get their view on the Holy Spirit. Though they'll view me as a heretic.
Peace be with you
 
Not a problem at all, bro. Peace unto as well! You said...

"As for the Jewish answer I just registered at a Jewish forum and if they accept it then I'll post a Question there to get their view on the Holy Spirit."

That's actually a GREAT idea! Maybe I can do that too. A possible encapsulating question is a simple one: Does the "Holy Spirit" spoken of in Psalm 51:11 and Isaiah 63:10 only refer to the angel Gabriel? Maududi says yes. Let's see what they say.

Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Psalm 51:11

But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
Isaiah 63:10
 
YieldedOne said:
"It should be noted that the Quran uses the words Holy Spirit and Gabriel interchangeably. In one of the reports speaking of the first revelation to the Prophet the angel who brought the revelation is called al-Namus al-Akbar, or the great Namus, and Namus means the angel who is entrusted with Divine secrets (N.); the Divine secrets, of course, being the Divine messages to humanity sent through the prophets of God. The same report adds that it was the same angel that brought revelation to Moses. Thus both the Quran and the reports make it clear that Divine revelation was brought to the Prophet, as well as to the prophets before him, by the angel Gabriel who is also called the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit or the great Namus. This clears up all doubts as to what is meant by the Holy Spirit in Islam; and in the mouths of the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus Christ, it carried exactly the same significance. It is true that there is not the same clarity here as in Islam; but it is equally true that the orthodox Christian conception of the Holy Spirit was quite unknown to the Jewish mind, and in this respect Jesus Christ was a staunch Jew, his terminology being taken in its entirety from the Jews. In the Old Testament terminology, the form used is the Spirit or the spirit of God. In Ps 51:11 and Is. 63:10, the form used is Holy Spirit which is also the form adopted in the Talmud and Midrash."
--Maulana Maududi
Click to expand...

i can't access to the link u've provided :/........it's blocked...
can u post another link to the same stuff?
 
Hi folks, I just dawned on me. Though I'm still waiting to post the question on the jewish forum. The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit. So I'm not likely to find an answer on that forum as its a trinitarian theology and they are not trinitarians. Also a similar question was answered earlier in another thread. The Holy Spirit is the paraclete not the arch angel Gabriel.
Peace be with you.
 
Just for kicks I did a google search of "Jewish discussion forum" and "Holy Spirit" and I came up with the following things...

Beliefnet Community: Jewish concept of the Holy Spirit

and...

Israel Forum: What is the Holy Spirit in Judaism?

If you do look through all the posts--amid all the various views---you will notice a significant ABSENCE of any talk about the angel Gabriel.

Hence what I've been saying:

Either...

1) Maududi is accurate about the OT Prophets and Jesus [as Jewish prophets] believing Gabriel was the Holy Spirit...and most--if not all--Jewish understanding on the Holy Spirit (past and present) is in error to the degree it doesn't claim this to be true

or

2) Maududi has misunderstood the Jewish understanding of the Holy Spirit held by the OT Prophets and Jesus...and attributed to the Jewish understanding an historically unjustifiable interpretation of the Holy Spirit as Gabriel.

Both of these cannot be true at the same time.
 
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Woodrow. I'm seeking clarification.

Do you agree or disagree with Maulana Maududi that the "Holy Spirit" term applies to Jibreel alone? You said that you agreed with him...but in your personal opinion statement, you appeared to say that you thought that the term "Holy Spirit" could apply to things OTHER THAN Gabriel, Islamically speaking. You said...

Just my opinion I see it [the term "Holy Spirit" ] as applying to other things also, such as the Knowledge we gain from Allaah(swt), the feeling we sometimes get when we desire to do good.

So, I'm seeking clarification. Which is it for you, Woodrow: agreement or disagreement with Muadudi? It's unclear at this point.
 
Ooops. I must beg everyone's pardon. Caught a major goof-up. :embarrass

It seems I conflated to different persons. Maulana Maududi and Maulana Muhammad Ali. Two different Muslim scholars with the first name Maulana. I got the two Maulanas mixed up early on in the thread...and just kept it going. The quote I've been quoting is from the LATTER "Maulana" and not the FORMER. Totally my bad. Wish I'd seen that earlier. So, it's Maulana Muhammad Ali who makes the particular direct claims we are talking about, NOT Maulana Maududi.

However, both Maulanas affirm that the "Holy Spirit" (ala Surah 16:102) who brought revelation to all the Old Testament Prophets (and Jesus) and revealed the Quran to Muhammad was the same entity: the angel Gabriel. In other words, both believed, as Woodrow said, that "The 'Holy Spirit' when thought of as being an entity is the Angel Jibreel."

So...we're still on track as far as the main question goes: whether or not such a view of the "Holy-Spirit-as-angel-Gabriel" is actually seen anywhere in Jewish belief (particularly the OT Prophets and Jesus), per Maulana Muhammad Ali's claim.

Once again, very sorry for the verbal snafu. Wish I'd have caught that sooner.
 
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"This clears up all doubts as to what is meant by the Holy Spirit in Islam; and in the mouths of the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus Christ, it carried exactly the same significance."

Note the words "Holy Spirit IN ISLAM" and "Significance"

Perhaps my english is not very good---but what I understand from that statement is that in Islam the Holy Spirit is believed to be Angel Gabriel (in a particular context) and such an understanding can be applied to the mention of Holy Spirit in the other 2 religions.----Nowhere does the person claim the JEWS (historically)think the Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel. ---in fact the person (if it's the same) previously explained that the Jews think that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Prophethood/inspiration and IMO this understanding applies/works within the context of the Quran.

Christianity has been brought up from your own quote----see here....
"It is true that there is not the same clarity here as in Islam; but it is equally true that the orthodox Christian conception of the Holy Spirit was quite unknown to the Jewish mind, and in this respect Jesus Christ was a staunch Jew, "

---therefore---what this person is communicating isn't about Judaism---but about Christian misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit.---that is, though Judaism may not have understood the Holy Spirit with the same clarity as Islam (----as Angel Gabriel)--it would have understood it as the Spirit of Prophethood/inspiration and the person is further claiming that Jesus Christ(pbuh) being a Jew---would have also understood it this way.....

You are simply trying to muddy the waters for the sake of an entertaining argument........;D

However--Let us assume, hypothetically, that some Muslim person claimed that the Jews historically believed that the Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel----and let us further assume, hypothetically, that we have all agreed that this is not correct.....then what?---the issue simply goes nowhere....time to give up YO?
 
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