Is the Holy Spirit the angel Gabriel?

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Thanks for your candor and graciousness, ThisOldMan. Thanks, bro.

ThisOldMan:
In Islam, there are three things which cannot be said in jest: marriage, divorce and murtad (apostasy). What is said in jest, or in make-believe, or in a rhetorical sense, will be considered to be said in earnest and for real. So a Muslim cannot, just for the sake of argument, say that let's set aside, for the time being, the fact that the Quran is the truth. To say so, even in jest would mean that he is fasiq and therefor has murtad. To accept that the Quran is the truth is one of the principles of iman. To deny even just one of the principles of iman means that the iman is not complete. An incomplete iman is the same as no iman at all. Without iman, it is impossible to be a Muslim.

This was a very helpful explanation. As I understand this, a Muslim cannot even theoretically consider that the Quran may be errant on a point of doctrine...without that very consideration being conceptualized as apostasizing from Islam itself. Basically, it's a faith-mandatory (ie avoidance of fasiq and murtad) view of absolute inerrancy and infallibility of the Quran. As such, there cannot be any attempts at any objective standpoint to the Quran (and it's study) that would have it's possible errancy as a presupposition.

A Muslim could never say "Ok. Just for the sake of argument, let's say that the Quran COULD POSSIBLY be wrong on this point."

If I am wrong about what I've said, please let me know.

If what I've said is an accurate implication of your explanation, it would seem to put the Islamic scholar in an intractible situation, with respect to looking at ancient Jewish literature. There's simply no way that an Islamic scholar could even be OPEN TO the idea that the "Holy Spirit-completely-identified-with-Angel Gabriel" may actually be from an early misinterpretation of the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit partially via eisegesis of a New Testament text (Luke 1:19). Even as viable a possibility as that might actually be, given all of the historiographical evidence that can be brought to bear on the subject.

Intriguing.
 
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What's interesting to me, from a Christian perspective, is this: It was just the assumption of absolute inerrancy and infallibity of Scripture that lead to the Roman Catholic Church embarrassing itself when Galileo tried to say that the earth went around the sun.

Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime, when a large majority of philosophers and astronomers still subscribed to the geocentric view that the Earth is at the centre of the universe. After 1610, when he began publicly supporting the heliocentric view, which placed the Sun at the centre of the universe, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. In February 1616, although he had been cleared of any offence, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture",[10] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

The Roman Catholic Church's logic was clear: Your findings go against what we believe about Scripture and Scripture CANNOT be wrong, therefore you are wrong because your findings conflict with Scripture. This was their then-present logic...and it completely kept them blind from even seeing that they MAY have been wrong. And they are STILL paying for that mistake even today!

I don't see how Islam can avoid these same issues...if they hold the absolute inerrancy and infallibility view. Just my thoughts.
 
We could actually frame things like this, to take away some of the sting:

Whenever Maulana Maududi makes the claim that the angel Gabriel "is also called the Holy Spirit" and says that "in the mouths of the Old Testement prophets..., it carried exactly the same significance"...it is COMPLETELY FAIR to ask whether or not all of the information we can bring to bear concerning Jewish literature and historical understanding of the Holy Spirit comes into direct conflict with Maududi's claim.

In other words, we can academically contest Maududi's claim that the Old Testament prophets actually believed that the angel Gabriel was "also called" (and completely identified) with the Holy Spirit of God.

If we can't even ask THIS question, then...wow...

This is all a very interesting lesson for me as far as interfaith dialogue between Islam and other religions. Glad I'm learning this.
 
"It should be noted that the Quran uses the words Holy Spirit and Gabriel interchangeably. In one of the reports speaking of the first revelation to the Prophet the angel who brought the revelation is called al-Namus al-Akbar, or the great Namus, and Namus means the angel who is entrusted with Divine secrets (N.); the Divine secrets, of course, being the Divine messages to humanity sent through the prophets of God. The same report adds that it was the same angel that brought revelation to Moses. Thus both the Quran and the reports make it clear that Divine revelation was brought to the Prophet, as well as to the prophets before him, by the angel Gabriel who is also called the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit or the great Namus. This clears up all doubts as to what is meant by the Holy Spirit in Islam; and in the mouths of the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus Christ, it carried exactly the same significance. It is true that there is not the same clarity here as in Islam; but it is equally true that the orthodox Christian conception of the Holy Spirit was quite unknown to the Jewish mind, and in this respect Jesus Christ was a staunch Jew, his terminology being taken in its entirety from the Jews. In the Old Testament terminology, the form used is the Spirit or the spirit of God. In Ps 51:11 and Is. 63:10, the form used is Holy Spirit which is also the form adopted in the Talmud and Midrash."
--Maulana Maududi

Heh. This makes it even easier. He specifically talks about Psalm 51:11 and Isaiah 63:10...EXACTLY where the misinterpretation could have taken place!

Ooooooooooh. :shade:

Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.

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In all their affliction he was afflicted,
and the angel of his presence saved them;
in his love and in his pity he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit;
therefore he turned to be their enemy,
and himself fought against them.
 
LOL!

Well, EVERYONE is encouraged to jump in this. You first, Fivesolas. What do you think of where the conversation is right now? What do you think of where some of this evidence points thus far? I'd love to hear from others like Naidamar, Siam, MustafaMC, and Woodrow, too.
 
Oh, that's rich! Maududi CLEARLY SAW the link between the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit and what happened with the earliest Jewish Christians' experience of the Holy Spirit!

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The function of the Holy Spirit is described thus:

"The visible results of the activity of the Holy Spirit, according to the Jewish conception, are the books of the Bible, all of which have been composed under its inspiration. All the prophets spoke "in the Holy Spirit"; and the most characteristic sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit is the gift of Prophecy, in the sense that the person upon whom it rests beholds the past and the future. With the death of the last three prophets, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, the Holy Spirit ceased to manifest itself in Israel" (En. J.).

It is clear from this that the Jewish idea was that the Holy Spirit brought inspiration to the prophets, the only difference between this and the Islamic conception being that the latter looks upon the very words of revelation as proceeding from a Divine source, while the former apparently regards the words as being those of the prophet speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ and his disciples used the word in exactly the same sense. Jesus' first experience of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove was the result of his baptism by John (Mt. 3:16) which seems to indicate its association with a certain stage in the spiritual development of man. The Holy Spirit did not descend upon him until he was baptised. The idea of a dove-like form is also met with in the Jewish literature. Moreover, Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as inspiring the righteous servants of God: "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord?" (Mt. 22:43); "For David himself said by the Holy Ghost" (Mk. 12:36); the Holy Spirit is given to them that ask Him (Lk. 11:13). Even the disciples' first experience of the Holy Spirit is a repetition of the old Jewish tradition. As there we find the Spirit coming with "a voice of a great rushing" (Ezk. 3:12), so in the case of the disciples of Jesus "there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind" (Acts, 2:2). Thus the Holy Spirit as conceived by Jesus and his disciples was the same as in the Old Testament prophets, which again is almost identical with its conception in Islam, and the orthodox Christian view of the spirit as one of the three persons of the Godhead, co-eternal with God, is of later growth.

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He was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT on that part. He was just wrong about the OT Prophets (and Jesus and the disciples) believing in the complete identification of the Holy Spirit with the angel Gabriel. I would submit that this particular interpretation is a product of wrongly eisegeting Luke 1:19 (Gabriel as angel who "stands before the presence of God) into Psalm 51:11 and Isaiah 63:9-10 (the "angel of His Presence")...in effect saying that Gabriel IS the "angel of His Presence."


Too funny!!! :omg:
 
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Sorry I'm so manic...but this is terribly exciting to me! :D

Maududi lays it on the LINE, too...

It was not the Prophet who spoke under influence of the Holy Spirit; it was a Divine Message brought by the angel Gabriel, and delivered in words to the Prophet who communicated it to mankind: "And surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. The Faithful Spirit has brought it on thy heart that thou mayest be a warner, in plain Arabic language" (26:192-195); "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel -- for surely he revealed it to thy heart by Allah's command" (2:97); "The Holy Spirit has revealed it from thy Lord with the truth" (16:102).

See what he's saying here. He is CLEARLY DISTINGUISHING the Islamic concept from the Judaic here. and he explains this in his note...

It is clear from this that the Jewish idea was that the Holy Spirit brought inspiration to the prophets, the only difference between this and the Islamic conception being that the latter looks upon the very words of revelation as proceeding from a Divine source, while the former apparently regards the words as being those of the prophet speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

In other words, he's saying this: According to Surah 16:102, Muhammad heard revelation from God straight from the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) rather than being merely speaking under his inspirational influence, like other prophets...such that the words of the Quran proceeded from a "Divine source."

But this whole reasoning is based off of the idea that it is TRUE that the Jewish "Holy Spirit" is nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel.

And THAT is what can be contested. :)
 
"And THAT is what can be contested. :) "

----Why?


As for Maududi, I think he is making a distinction between "revelation" and "inspiration"---- there is nothing to argue there.....

Since both Islam and Judaism have their own interpretative traditions----you can argue your Christian perspective all you want---it won't make much difference because neither Islam nor Judaism are influenced by Christian interpretations. Our interpretative traditions are internal. As I already explained we (Muslims and Jews)do not require other religious traditions to interpret for us.

Therefore--any debate on this issue is within the framework of Christianity only--that is---Do Christians feel it is appropriate to interpret Holy Spirit/Angel Gabriel as similar/same or are they different..............Has nothing to do with Judaism or Islam......SC simply used the Holy scriptures of other relgions to make his points---something that is standard practice in Christianity, I assume....
 
YO:"And THAT is what can be contested. :) "
Siam: Why?

In the interest of pursuing the truth of the matter. Why ELSE? :)

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Siam:
As for Maududi, I think he is making a distinction between "revelation" and "inspiration"---- there is nothing to argue there.....

Yes, he's made that distinction. I'm not even disputing whether or not the angel Gabriel actually gave Muhammad revelation. I'm questioning the idea that Gabriel is to be identified with the Jewish concept of the Holy Spirit. That's ALL.

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Siam:
Since both Islam and Judaism have their own interpretative traditions----you can argue your Christian perspective all you want---it won't make much difference because neither Islam nor Judaism are influenced by Christian interpretations. Our interpretative traditions are internal. As I already explained we (Muslims and Jews)do not require other religious traditions to interpret for us.

If you please, bro, I'd really like to keep the "Christian" stuff out of this. This has nothing to do with Christian interpretations at all. We are looking at sources dealing with Maududi's claims and the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit. We are specifically looking at a source that YOU brought into the conversation, remember? And this is not about trying to use another religious tradition to interpret Islam. It's specifically about looking at a claim being made and seeing if it's reasonable to think it true or not. Please, please, please don't make this some "Christian" agenda...because it's not.

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Siam:
Therefore--any debate on this issue is within the framework of Christianity only--that is---Do Christians feel it is appropriate to interpret Holy Spirit/Angel Gabriel as similar/same or are they different..............Has nothing to do with Judaism or Islam......SC simply used the Holy scriptures of other relgions to make his points---something that is standard practice in Christianity, I assume....

I could ask all of these same questions as an Orthodox Jew...or an atheist. This has nothing to do with an explicitly "Christian" framework. Again, please don't make this some "Christian" issue. It's an issue that any rational person approaching the data can look at.
 
"If you please, bro, I'd really like to keep the "Christian" stuff out of this. This has nothing to do with Christian interpretations at all. We are looking at sources dealing with Maududi's claims and the Jewish view of the Holy Spirit. We are specifically looking at a source that YOU brought into the conversation, remember? And this is not about trying to use another religious tradition to interpret Islam. It's specifically about looking at a claim being made and seeing if it's reasonable to think it true or not. Please, please, please don't make this some "Christian" agenda...because it's not."

"Maududi's claims"-----as per yr post---Maududi is claiming that the Jewish people feel the Holy Spirit is the "spirit of inspiration" ---and this has already been shown by my previous post---there is no dispute here. Maududi is further claiming that the "Holy Spirit" mentioned in the Quran is also mentioned by the Jews and Christians. ---since "Holy Spirit" is in the NT----there is no dispute here.

The Quran mentions the "Holy Spirit" in connection to Prophet Jesus(pbuh) and Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)---both Prophets who "recieved inspiration" therefore, the Holy Spirit can be understood according to the Jewish understanding of "Spirit of inspiration" ----again no dispute here.

Muslims believe the "Holy Spirit" mentioned in the Quran is Angel Gabriel. They arrive at this conclusion not because of anything Christians or Jews have to say---But through a thorough and critical look at Quranic language, grammer/syntax....etc. And What the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) said. Therefore-the only way to prove or disprove this is through the language/syntax/hermanuetics of the Quran. And the science of ahadith.

If you are asking ---Did Jews believe the Holy Spirit was Angel Gabriel?---I'd say---I've no idea....you'll have to ask the Jews.:D


--------------I suppose that leaves us with nowhere to go from here...;D
 
Siam:
"Maududi's claims"-----as per yr post---Maududi is claiming that the Jewish people feel the Holy Spirit is the "spirit of inspiration" ---and this has already been shown by my previous post---there is no dispute here. Maududi is further claiming that the "Holy Spirit" mentioned in the Quran is also mentioned by the Jews and Christians. ---since "Holy Spirit" is in the NT----there is no dispute here.
The Quran mentions the "Holy Spirit" in connection to Prophet Jesus(pbuh) and Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)---both Prophets who "recieved inspiration" therefore, the Holy Spirit can be understood according to the Jewish understanding of "Spirit of inspiration" ----again no dispute here.

You are missing the main thing here, Siam. Maududi is also claiming that the Old Testament prophets and Jesus believed that the Holy Spirit was nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel. He CLEARLY claims this...and this is the claim that's in dispute. That's what this whole thread is about, remember?


********************************************

Siam:
Muslims believe the "Holy Spirit" mentioned in the Quran is Angel Gabriel. They arrive at this conclusion not because of anything Christians or Jews have to say---But through a thorough and critical look at Quranic language, grammer/syntax....etc. And What the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) said. Therefore-the only way to prove or disprove this is through the language/syntax/hermanuetics of the Quran. And the science of ahadith.

If the "Holy Spirit" language of the Quran has absolutely NO TIES WHATSOEVER to "anything...Jews have to say", then why would Maududi spend such time MAKING THE TIE of the Quranic "Holy Spirit" (via Surah 16:102) to the Holy Spirit of the Judaism (ie Old Testament prophets and Jesus)? Maududi himself is the one who makes the historical tie. Maududi makes it CLEAR that he believes the Holy Spirit that Quran is talking about is the SAME ONE that the Old Testment Prophets and Jesus were talking about. It's right there in his work, Siam.

So the idea that this can be solved ONLY be diving into the Quran and Hadith is mistaken. All that is needed is to CONFIRM or DISCONFIRM Maududi's claim that the OT Prophets and Jesus actually believed that the HOly Spirit was nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel. We can formally separate Maududi's claims about the Quran from the Quran itself for that purpose.

**********************************

Siam:
If you are asking ---Did Jews believe the Holy Spirit was Angel Gabriel?---I'd say---I've no idea....you'll have to ask the Jews.

What do you think I've been doing using that Jewish Encyclopedia article. That is authoritative and authentically Jewish thinking there. It's a great resource for this. This IS "asking" the Jews what they think. But that's my point. If the Jewish adherents were to DISAGREE with Mr. Maududi that the Old Testament Prophets (Islamically speaking, this would include David!) actually believed that the Holy Spirit of God was identical to the angel Gabriel, would this have any bearing on the credibility of Maududi's claims, insofar as that was true?


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Siam:
I suppose that leaves us with nowhere to go from here

Oh, really? Surely you can give your opinion about Maududi's claim, given all of the information you've seen so far on this thread. Do you think it stands up to scrutiny? Surely you can form some kind of intelligent perspective on that.


*********************************

Hey! Where's everyone else? I know there's more people reading than this... :)
 
It's actually this simple:

If there is no evidence anywhere that adherents of Judaism (including the Old Testament prophets and Jesus) believed that the angel Gabriel was the Holy Spirit of God, then that provides us with reason to believe that Mr. Maududi's claim in that respect is inaccurate. As I've been trying to note (via the Jewish Encyclopedia article and other info), there really IS no evidence of such a belief. If anything, Siam, the "triple parallelism" book you cited from Wikipedia--the Levison book--proves too much. There were two major interpretations given there: 1) holy spirit as refering to purified human spirit and 2) holy spirit as refering to representation of God's Presence. Please note that NONE of the options for interpretation included any claim about Gabriel being identical to the Holy Spirit at all. That's very, very significant.
 
CAUTION: My hearing is very poor, but I believe I detect instrument music in the video.


While I'm waiting...a break.

Here's one of my favorite songs of all time. I have the album. Love it.

Holla. :)

All praises be to the Holy One.

(thanks for the caution, admins. I hope this isn't causing any trouble, rule wise. If so, just delete it. I most definitely don't want to offend with such a beautiful song! Blessings!)
 
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YO,
I didn't see Maududi making any direct claims that the Jews thought the Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel.......

I have some questions for you.....(I am looking for your personal opinion....)

1) Is Jesus Christ(pbuh) the Holy Spirit?

2) What is your idea/definition of Holy Spirit?

3) If Jesus Christ(pbuh) is a mystic in yr opinion---How does the role of crucifixion work out?
 
Siam:
I didn't see Maududi making any direct claims that the Jews thought the Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel.

Exact quote from Maududi...

It should be noted that the Quran uses the words Holy Spirit and Gabriel interchangeably. In one of the reports speaking of the first revelation to the Prophet the angel who brought the revelation is called al-Namus al-Akbar, or the great Namus, and Namus means the angel who is entrusted with Divine secrets (N.); the Divine secrets, of course, being the Divine messages to humanity sent through the prophets of God. The same report adds that it was the same angel that brought revelation to Moses. Thus both the Quran and the reports make it clear that Divine revelation was brought to the Prophet, as well as to the prophets before him, by the angel Gabriel who is also called the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit or the great Namus. This clears up all doubts as to what is meant by the Holy Spirit in Islam; and in the mouths of the Old Testament prophets, as well as Jesus Christ, it carried exactly the same significance.

Now, I don't know how else to read this except the following:

The term "Holy Spirit" had "exactly the same significance" to the Old Testament prophets and Jesus...as what is meant by the term "Holy Spirit" in Islam: it is nothing more or less than the angel Gabriel.

Please notice that "...exactly the same significance" line. With that, the above is all the sense I can make of Maududi's quote. And this is a direct claim that the Old Testament Prophets and Jesus (all Jewish prophets) thought the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel.

Does everyone else see this clearly?
 
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Siam:
I have some questions for you.....(I am looking for your personal opinion....)

1) Is Jesus Christ(pbuh) the Holy Spirit?

2) What is your idea/definition of Holy Spirit?

3) If Jesus Christ(pbuh) is a mystic in yr opinion---How does the role of crucifixion work out?

Tell you what. I'd rather not derail the thread any further than we have to. I can answer all those questions for you via private message if you are just looking for my personal opinions on these things. Is that cool? :)
 
Actually, take a close look at something. In the quote above, Maududi specifically says that one of the reports says that the angel who brought the message to Muhammad (Gabriel) was the "same angel" that brought revelation to Moses. He's speaking about Exodus 3:2 (referred to in
Acts 7:20). Basically, Maududi claims that the reports says that the "angel of the Lord" who appeared to Moses in the burning bush was the same angel Gabriel who appeared to Muhammad.

But that's interesting. Again, there is NOTHING from the Jewish side of things that attest to the "angel of the Lord" being equivalent to Gabriel. Here is the whole Jewish Encyclopedia article on angels. It talks about Gabriel a lot of times...with ABSOLUTELY NO INDICTATION that Gabriel should be identified as the Holy Spirit OR the "angel of the Lord."

Doesn't this count for anything? Don't you think that if Gabriel was the "Holy Spirit" mentioned in Psalms and Isaiah...and that ALL the OT prophets held this belief...that Blau and Kohler would have mentioned that? Seriously.

As far as the credibility and "Jewishness" of the Jewish Encyclopedia...

The Jewish Encyclopedia was an encyclopedia originally published in New York between 1901 and 1906 by Funk and Wagnalls. It contained over 15,000 articles in 12 volumes on the history and then-current state of Judaism and the Jews as of 1901. It is now a public domain resource. Jenny Mendelsohn, of University of Toronto Libraries, in an online guide to major sources of information about Jews and Judaism, writes of this work, "Although published in the early 1900s, this was a work highly regarded for its scholarship. Much of the material is still of value to researchers in Jewish History." Rabbi Joshua L. Segal of the Reform movement called it "a remarkable piece of Jewish scholarship" and added, "For events prior to 1900, it is considered to offer a level of scholarship superior to either of the more recent Jewish Encyclopedias written in English."
 
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So some of our sources for discussion right now:

1) Hebrew Scriptures
2) Maududi's "The Religion of Islam", Section: "The Holy Quran"
3) Articles in Jewish Encyclopedia ("The Holy Spirit"; "Angelology" )
4) "The Spirit in First-Century Judaism" by John R. Levison (cited in Wikipedia)

Personally, I think this is more than enough for us to answer the question of whether or not the OT Prophets believed the Holy Spirit was the angel Gabriel.
 

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