How does the Qur'an represent Christian beliefs?

[Fivesolas]

I would like this thread to, as much as possible, to represent how the Qur'an represents Christian beliefs. The title of this thread could be read with this emphasis: How does the Qur'an represent Christian beliefs?

This thread is started from another, where this kind of discussion could take the other off-topic somewhat. Here are some suggestions:

How does the Qur'an represent the Trinity?

How does the Qur'an represent the Sonship of Jeus?

 

[Woodrow]

I would like this thread to, as much as possible, to represent how the Qur'an represents Christian beliefs. The title of this thread could be read with this emphasis: How does the Qur'an represent Christian beliefs?

This thread is started from another, where this kind of discussion could take the other off-topic somewhat. Here are some suggestions:

How does the Qur'an represent the Trinity?

How does the Qur'an represent the Sonship of Jeus?

The Qur'an says very little about Christianity. the most notable ayyat regarding christianity would be:

5:82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
Latajidanna ashadda alnnasiAAadawatan lillatheena amanoo alyahooda waallatheenaashrakoo walatajidanna aqrabahum mawaddatan lillatheena amanooallatheena qaloo inna nasara thalikabi-anna minhum qisseeseena waruhbanan waannahum layastakbiroona

 

[siam]

The Quran also says very little about the trinity.

Because there are some stories similar to the Bible....Some people think the Quran is about the Bible---it is not---it's primary concern are not "Jews"/"Christians" but the People of the time of the Prophet(pbuh) and mankind in general over time. The Quran is not a book of "corrections" of the Bible---but primarily a book of Guidance to all mankind. ----Yes, it does on occassion answer specific questions posed by Jews/Christans to the Prophet(pbuh) and makes some general statements....but the Quran is foremost about Guidance.

Even the general statements about Jews/Christians are meant as Guidance---for example 5:82---emphasises humility, seeking knowledge, and simplicity as qualities that make a worthy person......

Most Christians aren't interested in the wisdom and Guidance of the Quran---they are mostly interested in what the Quran says about them----so one ends up with a distorted idea.......

 

[Ramadhan]

AFAIK, the does not say anything about trinity.
However, in several Qur'an verses, Allah condemns nasara who take up jesus as son of God.
In a Qur'an ayat, Jesus (pbuh) also implored that he never taught his followers to worship and elevate him as son of God.

 

[Sol Invictus]

i'll be quite frank and say that whenever the qur'an takes it upon itself to speak of the trinity it shows that the source of the qur'an does not seem to possess an accurate knowledge of what the trinity really is. given this problem, it has been my experience that in recent years muslims have moved away from claiming that the qur'an actually says anything about the trinity (i still remember when i would see arguments along the lines of "the qur'an is superior to the bible because while the latter does not even mention the trinity, the qur'an does and refutes it") because whenever these passages are examined, one finds that they clearly misunderstand what the trinity really is. that said, even if, for the sake of the argument, we accept that the qur'an says nothing about the trinity, it still incorrectly articulates the divinity of christ, and does not have a proper understanding of the basis for his sonship. it seems to believe that christ's sonship rests in the fact that the father engaged in a sexual union with mary ('the mother') to produce christ (the son). anyway, this is simply an initial post and we can get down to the details later.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Qur'an says very little about Christianity. the most notable ayyat regarding christianity would be:

The Quran also says very little about the trinity.

Even the general statements about Jews/Christians are meant as Guidance---for example 5:82---emphasises humility, seeking knowledge, and simplicity as qualities that make a worthy person......

Most Christians aren't interested in the wisdom and Guidance of the Quran---they are mostly interested in what the Quran says about them----so one ends up with a distorted idea.......

If the Qur'an says so little about Christianity or the Trinity and just makes general statements about Jews/Christians, then how is it that so many posts are made in this forum from Muslims who object to this and that thing which they assert is to be found with the doctrines and beliefs of the Christian Church and yet the first time I, who was raised in the Christian Church and have been a pastor for 30 years, have ever heard of these these supposed Christian teachings are from Muslims on this forum? If not from the Qu'ran or the Hadith, and certainly not from the Bible or the teachings of the Church, then from where do Muslims derive these erroneous views with regard to Christianity that are apparently held within Islam?

 

[Woodrow]

If the Qur'an says so little about Christianity or the Trinity and just makes general statements about Jews/Christians, then how is it that so many posts are made in this forum from Muslims who object to this and that thing which they assert is to be found with the doctrines and beliefs of the Christian Church and yet the first time I, who was raised in the Christian Church and have been a pastor for 30 years, have ever heard of these these supposed Christian teachings are from Muslims on this forum? If not from the Qu'ran or the Hadith, and certainly not from the Bible or the teachings of the Church, then from where do Muslims derive these erroneous views with regard to Christianity that are apparently held within Islam?

Peace Gene,

In my humble opinion I suspect some of it comes from us former Christians. Many of us do see statements in the AHadith and Quran as being refutations of Christianity and often believe that was/is their purpose. also since we do come from a variety of backgrounds and denominations, we sometimes have conflicting views on such matters as the Bible and the Trinity.

The next largest cause I suspect comes from some of the modern day non-mainstream Christians. In particular some of the "Bible based" charismatic fringe element. since the mid 1800s there has been numerous individuals breaking away from any established denominations and presenting their own interpretation of Christianity based only upon the bible with no adherence to doctrine or canons.

As a result of those two things and Christian/Muslim contacts being more common, it is probable that many views that do not represent all Christians and even erroneous views, are the views of Christianity we are now often seeing.

To add to the problem. Us humans, all humans, are very lazy creatures and we often travel the easiest path. today that path is the internet and we all become instant experts on any subject if we can type in the name of a subject, with at least a close approximation at spelling it correctly. For many of us our replies to anything are a fast google search followed by cut and paste.

It is understandable we will disagree over our perspective beliefs. But, I hope we can all learn to disagree over actual beliefs and not misconceptions. We can live with honest, truthful disagreements. Misconceptions and lies only lead to hostility.

 

[siam]

The Quran is a book of Guidance. Its Guidance is based within a framework called Tawheed. Tawheed is about ONE God/monotheism and the Quran has A LOT to say about that. Tawheed is the major concept that centers and balances all other concepts, whether these are economic principles, concepts of governemnt/governorship or principles of etiquette, or personal/family relationships....etc

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Quran is a book of Guidance. Its Guidance is based within a framework called Tawheed. Tawheed is about ONE God/monotheism and the Quran has A LOT to say about that. Tawheed is the major concept that centers and balances all other concepts, whether these are economic principles, concepts of governemnt/governorship or principles of etiquette, or personal/family relationships....etc

TBDAQ -- True, But Doesn't Answer the Question.

How does this address any of the questions previously asked in the thread with regard to the Qur'an offering commentary on Christianity, or for that matter guidance with regard to Christianity?

 

[Ubeyde]

The Qur'an mentions those Chrisitans and Jews who know of the coming of the Holy Prophet Muhamad (SA) and the Quran but they have altered and lied to the people about his and its coming..

It reads in the Bible, that there will be a Prophet from Mecca who will be illterate- and to that person Christians and Jews should follow and give glad tidings to.. but in the above statement that isn't the case because Corrupt people decidied to alter the Books of Revelation..

 

[Fivesolas]

The Qur'an mentions those Chrisitans and Jews who know of the coming of the Holy Prophet Muhamad (SA) and the Quran but they have altered and lied to the people about his and its coming..

It reads in the Bible, that there will be a Prophet from Mecca who will be illterate- and to that person Christians and Jews should follow and give glad tidings to.. but in the above statement that isn't the case because Corrupt people decidied to alter the Books of Revelation..

Woodrow above reported the following from the Qur'an:
5:82 "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."

How is it that you can believe this and yet believe that such ones would lie to people and alter their sacred texts?

 

[Umm AbdurRahman]

Woodrow above reported the following from the Qur'an:
5:82 "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."

How is it that you can believe this and yet believe that such ones would lie to people and alter their sacred texts?

Because The Quran also says this,
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

Note the "Many".

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Qur'an mentions those Chrisitans and Jews who know of the coming of the Holy Prophet Muhamad (SA) and the Quran but they have altered and lied to the people about his and its coming..

It reads in the Bible, that there will be a Prophet from Mecca who will be illterate- and to that person Christians and Jews should follow and give glad tidings to.. but in the above statement that isn't the case because Corrupt people decidied to alter the Books of Revelation..

I accept that these are statements that you believe are true. Though I know they are related in your mind, what are the specific passages that substantiate each of the several points you have made:


1) Where in the Qur'an does it mention those Chrisitans and Jews who know of the coming of the Holy Prophet Muhamad (SA) and the Quran?


2) Where in the Qur'an does it mention that Christians and Jews have altered and lied to the people about the comming of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an?

3) I know where you believe it is found in the Bible that Prophet Muhammad is referred to, but where does it mention in the Qur'an or the Hadith that Prophet Muhammad is referred to in the Bible?

4) Where in the Qur'an or Hadith does it mention that corrupt people decidied to alter the Books of Revelation?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Because The Quran also says this,
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

Note the "Many".

I have been told that this only refers to some Christians and not all. You yourself noted the term "many". And I have also been told that many Christians think different from one another. Some ascribe to orthodox beliefs and some ascribe to heterodox beliefs. Where does the Qur'an say whether it is the orthodox or the heterodox that is on the right course or the wrong course?


The Bible itself speaks of people who once believed and practice the Christian faith rightly and then turned to follow a course that one might describe as evil:

Revelation 2

2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Revelation 2

...you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.
14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam.

Revelation 3

I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life.

Could any of these be the people that the Qur'an speaks of in 5:66?

 

[Fivesolas]

Also,

Look at the following translated from Pickthal: "Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them..." 7:157

Or this one

And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:90


7:157 is especially interesting because gives the impression that we (or the Muslim) would be able to find Muhammed talked about in the Torah (the books of Moses) and the Gospel (which I take to mean the life and teaching of Jesus) that are with us. Either this text is timeless, and applies to every generation since written, or else it is in reference to that generation in which it was written...between 600-623AD.

We do have whole copies dating from the 5th century, and ancient translations from the same time period. I find it hard to understand why Muslims would try to convince Christians and others that the New Testament (or Old) has been malicously corrupted so much that the actual Gospel has been lost. The speal from the Qur'an is that I (or a Muslim) should be able to find Muhammed spoken of in the Old and New Testaments. But, then I am told that the Old and New Testaments have been so corrupted that they cannot be relied upon as a source of guidence.

Never once does the Old or New Testament reference a future book, such as the Qur'an, in the manner in which the Qur'an references the Old and New Testament. And I am not seeing in the Qur'an's teaching any thought that the Torah and Gospel which is with me is unreliable.


And this part, "And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession..." What is meant by "confirmign that in their possession" If the first part is to refer to the Qur'an, and the later part to the Old and New Testaments (Bible), then why would it be supposed that the Bible has been corrupted beyond recognition? Doesn't this Surah suggest any corruption at all? Wouldn't the skeptical Jew or Christian search their Scriptures to see if the things Muhammed claimed were true.

It would be just like when the Apostle Paul went and preached to the Berean Jews that it says they searching the Scriptures daily to see if the things Paul preached were true. Paul never once chided them if they did not believe by suggesting the the Old Testament Scriptures were corrupt!! Rather, he worked to show them FROM the Scripture that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God, crucified, and risen from the dead.

Again, it is said that the Christians twisted and corrupted their Scriptures. This implies intent, full knowledge. Which means malicious intent, fraud, deceipt, and of the worst kind, to decieve men in such a way that doesn't just rob them of temporal goods, but eternal. Why would such ones, when being persecuted by Rome or others, not immediately give up and sacrifice to the gods? It is a fact of history that if the Christians were to show their allegience to Ceaser, by offering to the gods and calling Ceaser Lord, they would be released. Yet, they chose to hold to their faith and suffer the most cruel penalties.

It is sometimes rebuffed in that men of conviction have often died for what they believed in. True enough. But this is not the point we are making. We are not saying that because Christians suffered and died for their belief, therefore it is true. We are answering the critic who is suggesting that the Christians themselves with malicious and purposeful intent corrupted their Scriptures for their own personal gain would then later choose to suffer the loss of all things, even their lives, to maintain such a ruse. We find this very incredible, if not impossible, to believe. A man may die for a lie believing it to be true, but who dies for a lie knowing it is such?

My point is this. I am hearing from Muslims that the Bible is so corrupt that it cannot be trusted. I am looking at the words of the Qur'an to see if this view comes from it, but I cannot find it. Here is the kind of thing I keep finding...

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. 5:47

If you go and read that in context, it is most certainly referring to the Old and New Testament. This Surah is NOT speaking to Muslims per se, but to the Christians (who else is the People of the Gospel), and it is saying to us to judge by that which God has revealed to us in the Law and Gospel, Torah and Injeel, Old and New Testaments. To such an admonision I agree to. I am glad to listen, hear, weigh and test the things taught by Muhammed as seen in the Qur'an and judge them by what is revealed by God beforehand in the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Fivesolas]

Because The Quran also says this,
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

Note the "Many".

And I note that their are among them those who are on the right course. I won't dispute with the text as it is something you hold holy. However, who is the judge of these things? How can it be known that any did or did not stand by the Law and the Gospel if it said now that the Law and the Gospel have been corrupted beyond recognition? All I have to judge that this is the case is what Muhammed said. But it is Muhammed's words that need judging. Those of you who did not receive Muahmmed as a prophet know what I mean....whether it was in 600AD or 2011AD, anyone standing and claiming to be a prophet..to speak for God, we know by what was revealed by God before that God often does this to test our hearts to see if we will remain faithful to Him. (Deut 13)

 

[Umm AbdurRahman]

7:157 is especially interesting because gives the impression that we (or the Muslim) would be able to find Muhammed talked about in the Torah (the books of Moses) and the Gospel (which I take to mean the life and teaching of Jesus) that are with us. Either this text is timeless, and applies to every generation since written, or else it is in reference to that generation in which it was written...between 600-623AD

My point is this. I am hearing from Muslims that the Bible is so corrupt that it cannot be trusted. I am looking at the words of the Qur'an to see if this view comes from it, but I cannot find it.

Look, What we believe is that, the Bible is NOT entirely fabricated. There are many parts in it, which are the true words of God. But, it is a really difficult task for us to find out what is true and what is false. And, for the record, the reason why we say that all of it is not true is because The Glorious Quran says so,

"So woe to those who write the 'scripture' with their own hands, then say: 'This is from Allaah,' in order to change it for a small price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn” [Quran, 2:79]

"… who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, “This is from Allaah,” but it is not from Allaah. And they speak untruth about Allaah while they know." [Quran: 3:78].

So, The Bible was meant for a particular time and NOT The Quran, The Quran is meant for the entire humanity till the end.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Those of you who did not receive Muahmmed as a prophet know what I mean....whether it was in 600AD or 2011AD, anyone standing and claiming to be a prophet..to speak for God, we know by what was revealed by God before that God often does this to test our hearts to see if we will remain faithful to Him. (Deut 13)

true. case in point is the matter of the bahai faith. why is it that muslims at large do not convert to the bahai religion? it is for the fact that they measure this new 'revelation' by what the muslim deity had supposedly already revealed and seeing that the tenets of the bahai faith are not in keeping with those of islam, they simply cannot bring themselves to convert. the bahai religion simply is not in keeping with what the qur'an says of itself. in the same manner as the muslim disbelieves in the bahai religion because of the revelation they have already received, the christian also does not accept the new revelation given by the islamic prophet because it is simply not in keeping with what god has already revealed. therefore, the christian is not a muslim for the same reasons that he is not a bahai nor a mormon; these new revelations are not in keeping with what god has already revealed and they make god out to be a liar for having previously claimed that his words would abide forever and no manner of evil would prevail over his words.

 

[Umm AbdurRahman]

I won't dispute with the text as it is something you hold holy.

That is really kind of you. Thank You.

Those of you who did not receive Muahmmed as a prophet know what I mean....whether it was in 600AD or 2011AD, anyone standing and claiming to be a prophet..to speak for God, we know by what was revealed by God before that God often does this to test our hearts to see if we will remain faithful to Him. (Deut 13)

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him......" [Deuteronomy:13]

That is exactly what The Quran commands,

“O mankind! Be dutiful to your Rabb (Cherisher and Sustainer, Allah).." [Quran, 4:1]

"Verily, I am Allah: There is no god but I: So worship Me (only), and perform regular prayers for My remembrance.” [Qu’ran 20:14]

“The Revelation of this Book (the Holy Qur’an) is from Allah, the Exalted in Power Full of Wisdom. Verily, it is We Who have revealed the Book to you in Truth: so worship Allah alone offering Him sincere devotion.” [(Qu’ran 39:1-2]

And there are so many more verses that declare The Unity of Lordship of God Almighty.

And, whatever the Prophet Muhammad spoke was from divine inspiration, it was not his own words, just like the Prophet Isa.

“Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed,” [(An-Najm (The Star) 53:3-4]

 

[Zafran]

true. case in point is the matter of the bahai faith. why is it that muslims at large do not convert to the bahai religion? it is for the fact that they measure this new 'revelation' by what the muslim deity had supposedly already revealed and seeing that the tenets of the bahai faith are not in keeping with those of islam, they simply cannot bring themselves to convert. the bahai religion simply is not in keeping with what the qur'an says of itself. in the same manner as the muslim disbelieves in the bahai religion because of the revelation they have already received, the christian also does not accept the new revelation given by the islamic prophet because it is simply not in keeping with what god has already revealed. therefore, the christian is not a muslim for the same reasons that he is not a bahai nor a mormon; these new revelations are not in keeping with what god has already revealed and they make god out to be a liar for having previously claimed that his words would abide forever and no manner of evil would prevail over his words.

The same thing could be said about the Jews and how they see christainty - If christainty is completion of the messenic prophecy why dont the Jews at large accept christainty and christ? The understanding of the OT of a christian and a Jew is very different so much so that christianty preety much does away with the law thanks to Paul while the Jews find that shocking - Can you imagine what a Jew thinks of a man being born of virgin birth, Or God actually coming down as a man - Its a total rewrite.

Your argument is as blind as the people that reject christ with all his miracles and proofs. He was a proof of God - Just like Muhammad pbuh is for the sealing of the Abhramic messege. Prophets have the authority to tell us what God commands.