living god dies

[K.Venugopal]

Is it possible that the definitions of "God" are different in Hinduism and Islam?

Yes. In Islam God is defined as the creator and He is considered eternally separate from His creation. Hinduism defines God as existence and declares all existence as one; call it God, energy, life, consciousness, oneness or whatever. Islam is about obedience to the creator and reward for obeying Him and punishment for failure to obey Him. Hinduism is about discovering the oneness of existence and being freed from the cause of all man’s problems – his sense of lack.

In Islam, God is Unique, the Uncreated, the One.....In Hinduism---God may not be either Unique or Uncreated...or even One......?

Since Islam has posited a God separate from His creation, it says God is unique, uncreated, the One etc. Hinduism, which does not consider existence as irreconcilably separate units, celebrates the oneness of existence with all manner of names and forms.

In some shamanistic beliefs like Shintoism---God(Kami) is "everywhere", in every rock, and stream and tree....

Hinduism believes God is everywhere and celebrates His expression in various forms.

Perhaps in Hinduism, any elephant or cow or man or statue can be an "incarnate"/avatar---a "created" God?

Yes, but “created God” is a misnomer.

 

[K.Venugopal]

So.... what would be the criteria for such a created man-god?.....that he did (a)good-works and he did (b)"miracles"?...is that it?

There is no such thing as "created man-god". Good works and miracles may help man to recognize divinity in other men. But the ultimate recognition is the divinity in all existence. God takes human form to teach mankind this truth. Many consider Sai Baba as one such avatar (unlimited God taking a limited form).

 

[siam]

@ K.V.
so then, ...if all creation is "God" and "God" is all creation..then "God" cannot be the creator of creation---as that would require an existence of an Uncreated creator before creation occurs.^o) got it?;D

it would also mean that such a created "God" would come into existence at some point and also cease to exist at some point---and is therefore not eternal?

it also means that you may worship yourself as "God" as you---being part of creation---are therefore "God".....?;D

and therefore, any human being---good or bad is worthy of worship due to them being "God"?

and one more question....if God is creation and creation is God and God comes into existence and ceases to exit....what is the point?----You mentioned lack....lack of what?

 

[siam]

There is no such thing as "created man-god". Good works and miracles may help man to recognize divinity in other men. But the ultimate recognition is the divinity in all existence. God takes human form to teach mankind this truth. Many consider Sai Baba as one such avatar (unlimited God taking a limited form).

Interesting statement K.V., I thought only Christians were capable of illogic! Perhaps you want to rephrase?
I thought you just explained that "God"/divinity= existence? are you saying that God/divinity/existence begins to exist so that it can teach itself "this truth"---that it exists.....? ---that it is incapable of understanding its own existence unless taught by itself?......there is something wrong here....?........

 

[K.Venugopal]

Your questions are good. May I attempt to answer them.

so then, ...if all creation is "God" and "God" is all creation..

Yes. God is all “creation” and “creation” is all God.

then "God" cannot be the creator of creation---as that would require an existence of an Uncreated creator before creation occurs.^o) got it?;D

No, God is not the creator of “creation”. Existence is eternal and cannot be divided into Creator and created. Such a division is an illusion that comes about due to our ignorance.

it would also mean that such a created "God" would come into existence at some point and also cease to exist at some point---and is therefore not eternal?

Existence always exists and is not created at any point of time. Existence includes God and His so called-creation. The separation is an illusion based on man’s ignorance and in the period of ignorance man suffers. Religion teaches man to wake up from the illusion and suffering.

it also means that you may worship yourself as "God" as you---being part of creation---are therefore "God".....?;D

We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end.

and therefore, any human being---good or bad is worthy of worship due to them being "God"?

All existence is worthy of worship and that is why Hindus join their palms together as an indication of worship when they pray before idols or meet another person.

and one more question....if God is creation and creation is God and God comes into existence and ceases to exit....what is the point?----You mentioned lack....lack of what?

God, the formless, has always been and never ceases to exist. Only his forms change and only forms cease to exist.

The lack that I mentioned is the sense of lack – the sense that something is missing. This sense of lack would end only when our minds become wholesome.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Interesting statement K.V., I thought only Christians were capable of illogic! Perhaps you want to rephrase?
I thought you just explained that "God"/divinity= existence? are you saying that God/divinity/existence begins to exist so that it can teach itself "this truth"---that it exists.....? ---that it is incapable of understanding its own existence unless taught by itself?......there is something wrong here....?........

Hindu scriptures mention a reason why God the formless takes on forms. Sanskrit has a word "Leela" which is game. The reason is a game that God plays with himself - a sort of solitaire! We may call the game hide-and-seek.

 

[M.I.A.]

Your questions are good. May I attempt to answer them.
Yes. God is all “creation” and “creation” is all God.
No, God is not the creator of “creation”. Existence is eternal and cannot be divided into Creator and created. Such a division is an illusion that comes about due to our ignorance.

Existence always exists and is not created at any point of time. Existence includes God and His so called-creation. The separation is an illusion based on man’s ignorance and in the period of ignorance man suffers. Religion teaches man to wake up from the illusion and suffering.

We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end.

All existence is worthy of worship and that is why Hindus join their palms together as an indication of worship when they pray before idols or meet another person.

God, the formless, has always been and never ceases to exist. Only his forms change and only forms cease to exist.

The lack that I mentioned is the sense of lack – the sense that something is missing. This sense of lack would end only when our minds become wholesome.

i take dispute with this, not harshly but let me try and explain.

existence/creation is not worthy of worship, the treatment of existence/creation..your deeds are what count.

there is a subtle difference.
worship should only be reserved for the creator, the treatment of existence/creation should be guided by whatever standard you would use to best represent your creator.

im not sure about idols at all. if you remove the idol from a temple, what do you have?
god would still be present.

i would say we are all servants of god,
we can and should work for the betterment of each other but ultimately we do not always do that.
creation and creator are separated by the many layers of the creation..our human nature. even if you were to remove every part of self you would still see that you were at the mercy of god.

in this way i understand that creator and creation are separated until such time as we return to our creator.

even after removing the "illusion" of this world we can only claim to be servants of a creator.
im sure you have learned from many different people and have taught many different people, in this way the creator is always external.

also im sure you understand that not everything said is correct, no matter how long we live and learn, we are are still open to mistakes.

in that separation is room for growth in our human nature.. become more constant.. but the separation still exists.


"We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end."

not really,
you cant start mistreating the people simply because you think you are "at one with god"

 

[Muezzin]

From what i have read of this indivdual and his PR team. It was a great big money making con! Sai baba was revered by influential politicans and high profile celebs within india.

If you read about sects and there leaders and followers you will see many of the deviant characteristics. Sai Baba was also investigated for 'disgusting' acts toward children and his so called 'followers' revered him as a 'God'.

On the other hand he had an amazing hairstyle.

 

[M.I.A.]

On the other hand he had an amazing hairstyle.

i kinda lol'd

yeah but looking at that picture you would probably still high five him if you didnt know what he had done.

...there are probably a few iatola pictures that are would probably get a high five also.

 

[K.Venugopal]

i take dispute with this, not harshly but let me try and explain.

I appreciate it. It is a very decent way of discourse.

existence/creation is not worthy of worship, the treatment of existence/creation..your deeds are what count.

Worship is not about being supplicant. Worship is celebration of oneness. Our deeds count – they can lead us to ignorance or to enlightenment.

there is a subtle difference. worship should only be reserved for the creator, the treatment of existence/creation should be guided by whatever standard you would use to best represent your creator.

Worship if understood as being supplicant, would naturally be reserved for the creator. But when the approach is one of oneness, then there is no worship per se, there is only celebration.

im not sure about idols at all. if you remove the idol from a temple, what do you have?

The idol is a form representing the formless. There are temples without idols. Eventually, when we discover the oneness, even temples are not required.

god would still be present.

Yes, just as air in a container would still be present even if the container is broken.

i would say we are all servants of god,

There is no harm in saying that, so long as that does not restrict being one with God.

we can and should work for the betterment of each other but ultimately we do not always do that.

I, sadly, agree with you.

creation and creator are separated by the many layers of the creation..our human nature. even if you were to remove every part of self you would still see that you were at the mercy of god.

God, who is love unbridled, would never have anyone at His mercy. The separation between “creation” and “creator” is only an illusion.

in this way i understand that creator and creation are separated until such time as we return to our creator.

Are you saying that one day “we shall return to our creator”? This is exactly what I have been saying all along.

even after removing the "illusion" of this world we can only claim to be servants of a creator.

Why insist on living in illusion when the truth is discovered?

im sure you have learned from many different people and have taught many different people, in this way the creator is always external.

The concept of external creator is an illusion.

also im sure you understand that not everything said is correct, no matter how long we live and learn, we are are still open to mistakes.

Of course. We live and we learn.

in that separation is room for growth in our human nature.. become more constant.. but the separation still exists.

From separation to oneness – we move from ignorance to truth, from suffering to bliss.

"We may worship anything. Only when we realise that we are God would worship end."not really,

Why not?

you cant start mistreating the people simply because you think you are "at one with god"

The question of mistreating people does not arise in oneness. It arises only with our sense of separation.

 

[siam]

@ K.V.---fascinating....thankyou for the answers.......

So the thread should have been titled "living God changes form"....?

According to your explanation---no one can "die"---they just keep changing form eternally?

Just to get things straight---eternal existence=(eternal)God=(eternal)creation/form....?

but.....if existence IS God, IS creation/form...then what need is there for incarnation?---because then every single form---from an ant to an elephant are God/existence....in other words "avatars" anyway.......?.......

Which means.....if this Baba guy had known this "truth".....then his whole charade was not one of bringing people to the "truth" that they are "God/existence"---it was to decieve them away from it by having people fixated on worshipping him as "God/existence".....that is, instead of understanding they are one with existence....they have created an artificial seperation from understanding "existence' by fixating on "form"---particularly the single "form" of this Baba person.

If the purpose of existence is leela/eternal hide-and-seek then intelligence, understanding, reason...does not matter as no matter what we understand, or think, or even do---we are going to eternally change "form" anyway..................

 

[K.Venugopal]

So the thread should have been titled "living God changes form"....?

Or better sill, “Living God reverts to formlessness”. God, who is understood by Hindus as totality, limits Himself into forms and names (to the question why, a fascinating answer suggested by Hindu scriptures, as I said before, is because God wishes to play the divine game of “hide-and-seek”). While God limits himself, He always exists as the unlimited. That is, even as the limited exists, the unlimited also exists simultaneously. This is like the unlimited air existing even as the limited air in the container exists. Because the container is ephemeral, it is said to be illusionary in nature. The word illusion (maya) used by me in our discussion is used to indicate that which is ephemeral in the measure against the eternal – not that the ephemeral does not ever exist. When Hindus talk about avatar or incarnation of God in human form, the difference is that while formless God takes on forms to “create” the world, He remains “ignorant” of himself in those forms and eventually He discovers Himself. In the case of an avatar, God is always aware of His form. This, I suppose, is the difference between Sai Baba and us. Sai Baba, if it is true that he was an avatar, would have been conscious of himself as God all the time He was in his limited body. You and I, on the other hand, are ignorant or not fully convinced or are unable to display God’s powers while we are in this human form. By and by, through many lifetimes, we could come to realise our divinity and we would achieve absolute freedom (moksha in Sanskrit).

According to your explanation---no one can "die"---they just keep changing form eternally?

Yes, nothing in existence dies. Death is only a word used for change. Just like sound and silence. If sound “dies” and silence is not sound, then sound can never come about. In silence is contained sound though no longer capable of being audible to our human ears.

Just to get things straight---eternal existence=(eternal)God=(eternal)creation/form....?

Yes. Let us say when God is through with the game there are no more forms. But there is always another day and God plays again and forms come into being again.

but.....if existence IS God, IS creation/form...then what need is there for incarnation?---because then every single form---from an ant to an elephant are God/existence....in other words "avatars" anyway.......?.......

Very good question indeed. When we dream and the dream went the way we did not like, we often quite hilariously wish that we had intervened in the dream and got things our way. But alas, we do not have the capacity to intervene in our dream. This creation can be seen as God’s dream but when God dreams He has the capacity to intervene in his dreams unlike us!

Which means.....if this Baba guy had known this "truth".....then his whole charade was not one of bringing people to the "truth" that they are "God/existence"---it was to decieve them away from it by having people fixated on worshipping him as "God/existence".....that is, instead of understanding they are one with existence....they have created an artificial seperation from understanding "existence' by fixating on "form"---particularly the single "form" of this Baba person.

Sai Baba, if he was actually an avatar, would have at all times been aware that he was God, unlike us. Sai Baba has reiterated in his teachings that we are one with God and he has also thought that people could worship his form as that of God. Such an approach is the traditional Hindu way of teaching religious truths. Both the higher teachings and the steps to reaching the higher teachings are available in Hinduism.

If the purpose of existence is leela/eternal hide-and-seek then intelligence, understanding, reason...does not matter as no matter what we understand, or think, or even do---we are going to eternally change "form" anyway..................

Forms are made to be changed, just like the dress we are wearing. Common sense is enough to understand this. Intelligence, understanding, reason has to be used to uncover what we are within our dress.

 

[Riana17]

Or better sill, “Living God reverts to formlessness”. God, who is understood by Hindus as totality, limits Himself into forms and names (to the question why, a fascinating answer suggested by Hindu scriptures, as I said before, is because God wishes to play the divine game of “hide-and-seek”). While God limits himself, He always exists as the unlimited. That is, even as the limited exists, the unlimited also exists simultaneously. This is like the unlimited air existing even as the limited air in the container exists. Because the container is ephemeral, it is said to be illusionary in nature. The word illusion (maya) used by me in our discussion is used to indicate that which is ephemeral in the measure against the eternal – not that the ephemeral does not ever exist. When Hindus talk about avatar or incarnation of God in human form, the difference is that while formless God takes on forms to “create” the world, He remains “ignorant” of himself in those forms and eventually He discovers Himself. In the case of an avatar, God is always aware of His form. This, I suppose, is the difference between Sai Baba and us. Sai Baba, if it is true that he was an avatar, would have been conscious of himself as God all the time He was in his limited body. You and I, on the other hand, are ignorant or not fully convinced or are unable to display God’s powers while we are in this human form. By and by, through many lifetimes, we could come to realise our divinity and we would achieve absolute freedom (moksha in Sanskrit).

Yes, nothing in existence dies. Death is only a word used for change. Just like sound and silence. If sound “dies” and silence is not sound, then sound can never come about. In silence is contained sound though no longer capable of being audible to our human ears.

Yes. Let us say when God is through with the game there are no more forms. But there is always another day and God plays again and forms come into being again.

Very good question indeed. When we dream and the dream went the way we did not like, we often quite hilariously wish that we had intervened in the dream and got things our way. But alas, we do not have the capacity to intervene in our dream. This creation can be seen as God’s dream but when God dreams He has the capacity to intervene in his dreams unlike us!

Sai Baba, if he was actually an avatar, would have at all times been aware that he was God, unlike us. Sai Baba has reiterated in his teachings that we are one with God and he has also thought that people could worship his form as that of God. Such an approach is the traditional Hindu way of teaching religious truths. Both the higher teachings and the steps to reaching the higher teachings are available in Hinduism.

Forms are made to be changed, just like the dress we are wearing. Common sense is enough to understand this. Intelligence, understanding, reason has to be used to uncover what we are within our dress.

Salam Alaikkum Mr Venugopal

There should be some logic and proper explanation in everything, when we are alive we should take advantage of finding out the truth, the truth with supportive facts & evidence.
When we leave this earth or DIE, we can't do anything anymore, sorry is always in the end.

Just think about what is the craziest idea a person can have, yes that is to think that there are TWO GOD

Okay, lets give some samples, do you think it is possible to have 2President in a country?
Do you think there can be two mother to a son?
Do you think there can be two father to a boy?
If you think so, think please think 1000 times again because if you are a father and someone claims he is also father of your son, then i think that will not be a crazy idea, it will be a total disaster, and if that is possible, both of you guys will end up in mental hospital and will never ever recover INSHALLAH.

Just a week ago, I offer to share the noodles to our new teaboy. He said "Hmm, is that a beef?" I said, no its a chicken then he replied me "Good because beef is our GOD, I am HINDU"
I was so shocked, I said okay dear if COW is your GOD, why not a chicken? He said because beef is our mother, she gives milk. Oh tearfully interesting, , i was speechless and in the end i feel so so sad for him (& now I wonder a male beef is not GOD because he aint produce milk), why with all this advance technology, people can't think and open their mind?

Hence insha Allah, the ONE AND ONLY CREATOR (ALLAH) will have mercy on you and guide you to the right path. Amen
If you are a man of Science, perhaps, you can consider watching the youtube videos about Science in QURAN (THERE ARE 7videos)


Miracle of Qur'an(1 of 7)‏ - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=temQ6bd3Cuk

 

[K.Venugopal]

Salam Alaikkum Mr Venugopal

There should be some logic and proper explanation in everything, when we are alive we should take advantage of finding out the truth, the truth with supportive facts & evidence.
When we leave this earth or DIE, we can't do anything anymore, sorry is always in the end.

Just think about what is the craziest idea a person can have, yes that is to think that there are TWO GOD

Okay, lets give some samples, do you think it is possible to have 2President in a country?
Do you think there can be two mother to a son?
Do you think there can be two father to a boy?
If you think so, think please think 1000 times again because if you are a father and someone claims he is also father of your son, then i think that will not be a crazy idea, it will be a total disaster, and if that is possible, both of you guys will end up in mental hospital and will never ever recover INSHALLAH.

Just a week ago, I offer to share the noodles to our new teaboy. He said "Hmm, is that a beef?" I said, no its a chicken then he replied me "Good because beef is our GOD, I am HINDU"
I was so shocked, I said okay dear if COW is your GOD, why not a chicken? He said because beef is our mother, she gives milk. Oh tearfully interesting, , i was speechless and in the end i feel so so sad for him (& now I wonder a male beef is not GOD because he aint produce milk), why with all this advance technology, people can't think and open their mind?

Hence insha Allah, the ONE AND ONLY CREATOR (ALLAH) will have mercy on you and guide you to the right path. Amen
If you are a man of Science, perhaps, you can consider watching the youtube videos about Science in QURAN (THERE ARE 7videos)


Miracle of Qur'an(1 of 7)‏ - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=temQ6bd3Cuk

Dear Riana, I have never said anywhere there are two Gods, because by God I mean totality and by definition there cannot be two totalities. However, I believe God can and does express Himself in innumerable forms and because the forms are nothing other than Him, it is also correct to call his forms or "creation" as Gods. This does not mean there are many Gods. God is one and His expressions are many. The One and the Many are the same. Difference does not mean separate. Our sense of separation is an illusion that occurs because we are unable to see the oneness.

 

[Riana17]

Dear Riana, I have never said anywhere there are two Gods, because by God I mean totality and by definition there cannot be two totalities. However, I believe God can and does express Himself in innumerable forms and because the forms are nothing other than Him, it is also correct to call his forms or "creation" as Gods. This does not mean there are many Gods. God is one and His expressions are many. The One and the Many are the same. Difference does not mean separate. Our sense of separation is an illusion that occurs because we are unable to see the oneness.

Salam Alaikkum
When we say one, it means absolutely one (La Illaha Illalah). A person himself is different from his shadow or a person is not same as his soul. There can be only one person, one shadow and one soul.

Now pls tell us logically, why would the ONLY GOD would have to produce multiple forms of His? The God you are talking about is badly imaged, why the CREATOR would be in forms of animal, plants, or human or a thing, that is so silly and unrespectable. If you are believe like that, then you can be God anytime you wished and back as human as you wish as well.

Creation is not a joke and the CREATOR is not a joker either.

Mr. Venugopal, I would like for us to be realistic and I am just gently reminding you. I wont loose anything here, so pls once again, support the ideas you have.

Please bear with me, lets say I killed an ant, do we think I can return his life just because I think it would? I am a God, i think I can ... ??????

Of course, we cant Sir, there is no single chance for GOD is ALONE and HE has no other FORMS or partner. Just like you, you are a man of yourself, responsible for your own thinking and acts.

Please consider and let us have an open mind.
I would leavee you with another thing to think about inshallah, what do you think is God's message when He is in form of a plant or a COW? Is it recipe time?

And a bonus query of mine, so how about I walk a street and I saw a cow? how do I know the heck is god or an animal? do i have to stop think and identify the signs? what are the signs? okay let's say because there is milk dropping in her (I would really be kicked far doing this), okay how do i pay respect to God? shall I stop and offer my prayer? okay lets say i am done with that, how about if I cross with another hundreds of cows, a flock of goats & sheeps, whom shall I worship first? will I be a sinner when I worship the other before the rest, or will i survive the day without feeling guilty? is it peaceful life Mr Venugopal knowing that everywhere of you are gods? are you even allowed to drink the milk of your gods?

I am indeed sorry, I dont like to offend you, but I wish, i do wish this idea would touch your intelligent mind, you seems fairly educated Sir. Everyone can agree with me here, you are an excellent communicator and better than many of us.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Salam Alaikkum

Alaikkum Salam, Riana

When we say one, it means absolutely one (La Illaha Illalah). A person himself is different from his shadow or a person is not same as his soul. There can be only one person, one shadow and one soul.

The shadow is dependent on the body to exist. The body does not depend on the shadow to exist. The body is dependent on the soul to exist. The soul does not depend on the body to exist. The soul is dependent on God to exist. God is not dependent on the soul to exist. In fact, God is not dependent on anything to exist or do anything. God is self-existent. I think both of us agree upto this point.

So if God created something, that creation would not have come through anything other than Himself. If you agree with me on this, then you have to agree that God and His “creation” are both one. They may be different, like man and his shadow, but they are not separate.

Now pls tell us logically, why would the ONLY GOD would have to produce multiple forms of His? The God you are talking about is badly imaged, why the CREATOR would be in forms of animal, plants, or human or a thing, that is so silly and unrespectable.

Because He wanted to do that and why not?

If you are believe like that, then you can be God anytime you wished and back as human as you wish as well.

Yes, when I move from my limited self to my unlimited self.

Creation is not a joke and the CREATOR is not a joker either.

I did not say so either.

Mr. Venugopal, I would like for us to be realistic and I am just gently reminding you. I wont loose anything here, so pls once again, support the ideas you have.

I base my contentions on logic. If you shatter the logic, then my contentions would fail.

Please bear with me, lets say I killed an ant, do we think I can return his life just because I think it would? I am a God, i think I can ... ??????

When I move from my limited self to my unlimited self, then I would be able to once again be the ant that was killed.

Of course, we cant Sir, there is no single chance for GOD is ALONE

Maybe that is why He “created” us – to have company.

and HE has no other FORMS or partner.

He can be without form or with forms and have partners if He wishes. Why do we want to limit the capacity of God?

Just like you, you are a man of yourself, responsible for your own thinking and acts.

Ah, you have just said God is like me. Is this allowed in Islam?

Please consider and let us have an open mind.

The whole idea of Hinduism is to cultivate open-mindedness.

I would live you with another thing to think about inshallah, what do you think is God's message when He is in form of a plant or a COW? Is it recipe time?

God has only one message – discover Him by discovering yourself. I am not sure if plants and cows would be able to do it, but I am sure with God’s help, they too would be able to do it. I would be underestimating God if I thought otherwise.

I am indeed sorry, I dont like to offend you, but I wish, i do wish this idea would touch your intelligent mind, you seems fairly educated Sir. Everyone can agree with me here, you are an excellent communicator and better than many of us.

Thank you for your praise. I really don’t deserve it. I am quite an ordinary chap just trying to put across ideas that I think are important.