truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

I think Amigo is just making things up. The word "Mohammedan" didn't appear until long after the 7th century.

Speaking historically, Christians did at times consider Islam to be some kind of Christian heresy. Saint John of Damascus (8th century) calls it "the superstition of the Ishmaelites" and includes it in his book about heresies, which forms part of his Fount of Knowledge.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

I think Amigo is just making things up. The word "Mohammedan" didn't appear until long after the 7th century.

exactly.

Speaking historically, Christians did at times consider Islam to be some kind of Christian heresy. Saint John of Damascus (8th century) calls it "the superstition of the Ishmaelites" and includes it in his book about heresies, which forms part of his Fount of Knowledge.

Yep we know about john of damascus who wrote many false things about Islam.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

I think Amigo is just making things up. The word "Mohammedan" didn't appear until long after the 7th century.

Speaking historically, Christians did at times consider Islam to be some kind of Christian heresy. Saint John of Damascus (8th century) calls it "the superstition of the Ishmaelites" and includes it in his book about heresies, which forms part of his Fount of Knowledge.

Nop:) I am not making things up. I was just misunderstood.
Christians have considered those who don't agree with them heretic. It is true that among all who confess some connection with Christ, not all of them call themselves Christians, Muslims are an example. However, when they say that Jesus was Muslim, and that earlier true Christians were Muslim, what else are they saying beside that Islam is somehow the true christianity (religion of Jesus)?
I am saying that everyone can claim to be Christian, so when asking a question like the one on the thread, it is wrongly assumed that everyone share the same understanding of the words I mentioned... but they don't.
As I like to point out, good communication require a common language or consideration of various understanding of common words.

Thanks for mentioning the book by St. John of Damascus. I agree with him and I would like to read that book. I think I understand why he would say that about Ishmaelites, I believe as I said in the other thread that Islam is simply the spirit-uality of Hagar, just as whatever true Judaism is/was is the spirit-uality of Sarah.

And true Christianity, whatever it is, is the spirit-uality of the Virgin Mary. Now, a good understanding of the Virgin should lead to a clear understanding of God and therefore the answer of wether Jesus is the Son of God.
 
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Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Nop I am not making things up. I was just misunderstood.

You are definitely making things up. No, you were not misunderstood, you clearly are in confusion about your own religion.

Christians have considered those who don't agree with them heretic.

So we agree that christians call other christians that didn't agree with their own brand of christianity heretic. Catholics calle protestants heretic, and vice versa.

It is true that among all who confess some connection with Christ, not all of them call themselves Christians, Muslims are an example.

Are trying to rewrite history and definiton or simply
Christians are not simply those who confess some connection with christ, those who accept Jesus as savior and God who came down to earth to die to be able to forgive human sins.

Muslims never confess any connection with "christ", which simply mean "annointed".
And muslims definitely never believe in a god that is born as a helpless baby, a god that cried and suckled that breasts of virgin, a god that needed to go relieved himself doing #1 and #2 (and hence the question: is the excrement and urine of christians' god also holy? since you worship the torture tool of your god, would you also worship the stool and urine of your good? this is a genuine question)

owever, when they say that Jesus was Muslim, and that earlier true Christians were Muslim, what else are they saying beside that Islam is somehow the true christianity (religion of Jesus)?

Unlike christians, muslims believe in one god, the unchanged and everlasting. Just like prophets Abraham, Musa, Jacob, Isaac, David and Muhammad (pbut), Jesus also worshipped One God. Meanwhile, christians worship 3-in-1 god, in addition to various mother of god and thousands of dead people you call saints.
true christianity? Is there such a thing? the term christianity itself was invented long after the departure of prophet Jesus (pbuh).

Islam simply means submission to one God, and Jesus (pbuh) was a muslim.

I am saying that everyone can claim to be Christian, so when asking a question like the one on the thread, it is wrongly assumed that everyone share the same understanding of the words I mentioned... but they don't.

Everyone is free to say anything, as we can see in your example. However, most of what you say is not backed at all by reality, proof, and evidence.

I think I understand why he would say that about Ishmaelites, I believe as I said in the other thread that Islam is simply the spirit-uality of Hagar, just as whatever true Judaism is/was is the spirit-uality of Sarah.

Who told you this?
The Satanic Ghost?
I'm surprised that for someone who claim they are in communion with god, you get all your facts wrong, which are even disproved by your own bible.

And true Christianity, whatever it is, is the spirit-uality of the Virgin Mary. Now, a good understanding of the Virgin should lead to a clear understanding of God and therefore the answer of wether Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus never taught christianity. Don't believe me?
Ask your priest, or ask the pastor grace seeker.
Christianity was a religion mostly created by saul of tarsus and 0officiated by the pagan roman emperors.
Read your own christianity history or better yet, read your own bible and see who wrote the most. None of them is named christ, nor jesus christ, nor Jesus, nor Eesa (pbuh).
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Some of the responses to items in the news are revelvant to the conversation on this thread: Is Mormonism a Cult or a Christian Denomination?. The key points for our discussion are the assertions:
What makes all the diversity of denominations or branches of global Christianity share a “family resemblance” despite our differences is that we are all built on a common confession rooted in the Council of Nicea and, in particular, the Nicene Creed. The Nicene affirmation is the ground of unity upon which the entire global church is built. This is why it is known as an historic, ecumenical creed.

This is why Arianism back in the fourth century was declared a heresy or a “cult” at the Council of Nicea in 325 even though they ardently claimed to be Christians. They, like modern day Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, do not fall within the “family” of Christianity primarily because they rejected orthodox Christology.

Obviously, how one defines Christianity is going to make a great deal of difference with how one answers this thread's thesis question. If one determines that anyone who simply asserts that they are a Christian is in fact a Christian and they then go around denying the teachings of the Nicene Creed as being true, then one could very easily have a situation in which one might accept the proposition that there are Christians who do not believe that Jesus is God or the son of God. However, I would suggest that to accept that argument is to dismiss the way that history has wrestled with and answered this question in the past.



(Truth in advertising, Dr. Tennent is the current president of the seminary from which I graduated.)
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Obviously, how one defines Christianity is going to make a great deal of difference with how one answers this thread's thesis question. If one determines that anyone who simply asserts that they are a Christian is in fact a Christian and they then go around denying the teachings of the Nicene Creed as being true, then one could very easily have a situation in which one might accept the proposition that there are Christians who do not believe that Jesus is God or the son of God. However, I would suggest that to accept that argument is to dismiss the way that history has wrestled with and answered this question in the past.

So if christians are defined as those who follow the nicene creed, shouldn't they be more aptly called as Niceneans instead of christians?
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

It is more like the Nicene creed (WITHOUT the Filioque:smile:) defines what all Christians believe. Likewise if anyone denies some part of the Shahada he is not a Muslim but that doesn't make Muslims "Shahadists".
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

It is more like the Nicene creed (WITHOUT the Filioque:smile:) defines what all Christians believe. Likewise if anyone denies some part of the Shahada he is not a Muslim but that doesn't make Muslims "Shahadists".

Shahadat was taught directly by prophet Muhammad SAW.

Was Jesus involved in the formation of nicene creed, or did he approve of it?

I know I shouldn't have been surprised, but again and again I'm taken aback by the amazing knowledge christians have of their own religion.
 
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Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son



Shahadat was taught directly by prophet Muhammad SAW.

Was Jesus involved in the formation of nicene creed, or did he approve of it?

Yes he did, through the Church which he founded as his body and the Holy Spirit which he sent.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Yes he did, through the Church which he founded as his body and the Holy Spirit which he sent.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of nicence creed:

For millenia, through the messengers and prophets that He sent, God taught humans that God is ONE and then he also sent Jesus (pbuh), but after Jesus (pbuh) ascencion, 300+ years later, God is suddenly not ONE, but THREE in ONE.
Through nicence creed, the new schizophrenic or multiple personality god decided in the fourth century that he came down to earth as a helpless baby, suckling from the breasts of a virgin, went to the loo regularly to do #1 and #2 (which pose serious question: since Jesus was fully man and fully god, and all his part was god, then were his excrement and urinen also god? and hence christians must also worship his excrement and urine if he were here now?), cried for help from the first god, and involuntarily go thimself killed because 300+ years later he would decided a new thing for humans where humanity needed to drink his blood so they could go to paradise?
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Of course you are correct- I must apologize for my rude behavior on this forum.

I'm glad you realized that.

Next step is to realize that worshiping statues and paintings and icons is something that God commanded you AGAINST.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son



Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of nicence creed:

For millenia, through the messengers and prophets that He sent, God taught humans that God is ONE and then he also sent Jesus (pbuh), but after Jesus (pbuh) ascencion, 300+ years later, God is suddenly not ONE, but THREE in ONE.


God is and has always been Trinity, one in essence and undivided. The truth of the Trinity was only revealed in shadows and hints in the Old Testament- God only revealed it fully with the incarnation of the Son. The first full revelation of it was when Christ was baptized in the Jordan, and the voice of the Father was heard, and the Holy spirit descended upon the Son in the form of a dove.

The creed proclaimed
by the Holy Fathers of Nicaea did not create any new doctrine but only confirmed in writing what had been taught by Christ and his apostles. For the first centuries of the Church most Christian doctrine remained unwritten, being passed by oral tradition, and was only later written down. The New Testament itself took a long time to be solidified and collected into one volume, and there was not full agreement as to exactly which books should be included. For example, there are some books such as the Shepherd of Hermas and the didache which were considered scripture by some Fathers but which did not end up in the final NT, though they are still considered profitable reading.

(On a side note, some secularists have recently claimed (e.g. Dan Brown in "The Da Vinci Code") that the New Testament canon was decided at Nicaea; in reality, the New Testament canon was not even an item on the agenda. The main goals of this council were: 1. Deciding the question of Arianism; 2. Resolving the calculation for Pascha. All parties involved already agreed on which books were scripture.)

The New Testament scriptures are the first parts of our tradition to be written down; later, in the face of heresies and misunderstandings, the Christian faith was further clarified in writing, through the works of the Holy Fathers, the creeds, the canons, and, perhaps most importantly, the hymns of the church. Many of our great theologians were also great hymnographers, and often the best expressions of Orthodox Christian belief are found in our hymns.

A beautiful ancient hymn, sung in every Orthodox liturgy, which is almost like a second creed, is the "Only-begotten Son":

Only-begotten Son and immortal Word of God, who for our salvation willed to be incarnate of the Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, who without change became man, and were crucified, O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, who are one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit- save us.

Christianity was never simply a "book" religion, though this is what some Protestant reformers have attempted to make of it. Christian teaching was always drawn from a combination of scripture and tradition. The fathomless depths of scripture could never be interpreted in isolation or solely through the application of human reason, but with the guidance of bishops, elders, and other teachers, the Church as a whole, and ultimately the Holy Spirit. In the dark period of Soviet atheism which produced so many martyrs, it was often illiterate grandmothers who were the best guardians of the faith, when priests and bishops could not act or even betrayed the Church, and this illustrates well the power of Tradition in God's Church.

A final point: Christ went to his death voluntarily, though not without the very human aversion to death. So he says to the Father, in the garden: "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me. But not my will, but yours be done." So, while he had the natural fear of death in his human nature, he overcame it by his submission to the Father and gave us all an example of bowing to the will of God. So he ascended the cross willingly and accomplished the greatest act of love in history. Glory to God.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

God is and has always been Trinity, one in essence and undivided. The truth of the Trinity was only revealed in shadows and hints in the Old Testament- God only revealed it fully with the incarnation of the Son. The first full revelation of it was when Christ was baptized in the Jordan, and the voice of the Father was heard, and the Holy spirit descended upon the Son in the form of a dove.

This is what you believe.

But this belief is not shared by all prophets and not definitely not shared by Jesus (pbuh).

Your belief has a lot more things in common with Hinduism than with monetheistic message brought by Jesus (pbuh), and you believe more the words of your rabbis and priests and church leaders than the words of Jesus (pbuh).
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

The New Testament scriptures are the first parts of our tradition to be written down; later, in the face of heresies and misunderstandings, the Christian faith was further clarified in writing, through the works of the Holy Fathers, the creeds, the canons, and, perhaps most importantly, the hymns of the church. Many of our great theologians were also great hymnographers, and often the best expressions of Orthodox Christian belief are found in our hymns.

This is what New Testament is:

Some of the changes and addition to the old books of NT:

Mark 16:9-20 was added. It says, "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

John 7:53 - 8:11 was added. It says, "And every man went unto his own house. Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

Matthew 6:13 was added. It says, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

Matthew 12: 47 was added. It says, "Then one said unto him, behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee."
Matthew 19:9 was added. It says, "and whoso marrieth her which is put away, doth commit adultery."
Luke 9:55 - 56 was added. It says, " Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
Luke 22:19 - 20 was added. It says, "which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying this cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
Luke 24:6 was added. It says, "He is not here, but has risen"
Luke 24:12 was added. It says, "Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulcher; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass." In some Christian bibles it also reads, "But Peter rose and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths by themselves; and he sent home wondering at what had happened."
John 5:3 - 4 was added. It says, "waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
Acts 8:37 was added. It says, "If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he replied, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

These are just a few of the additions done to bible which was not there in earlier writings. How do you call these writings you use the same as the ones that was there earlier?
W.F. Albright wrote:
The four books in our New Testament which are called the "gospels" stand alone, in that there is no other material by which to judge them. This is not to say that they are a wholly new literary form, but rather that the material they discuss is not to be found paralleled anywhere else. It is true that during the centuries after the events recorded in the New Testament, the apocryphal gospels and various Gnostic compilations of sayings attributed to Jesus were composed. But an examination of the materials so collected, and a comparison of them with the canonical gospels of the New Testament, reveals that these later compositions were slanted to form a belief about the person and work of Jesus which finds no expression in the pages of the New Testament. (W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann. Matthew. The Anchor Bible. New York: Doubleday, 1971, p. xix)

Forgeries
I John 5:7 “… is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifth century. It is not cited by ANY of the Greek ecclesiastical writers; nor by any of the early Latin fathers, even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious; and was first cited (though not as it now reads) by Virgilius Tapsensis, a Latin writer of no credit, in the latter end of the fifth century, but by whom forged, is of no great moment, as its design must be obvious to all.” (information from different sources)
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

And this is how christians promoted Jesus (p), after his ascencion and when he was unable to rebuke anymore, into the position of smaller God with more active voice, and kicked out the OT god:

Benjamin Wilson , one of the foremost Bible translators & a pioneer in the transliteration of the Greek Scriptures , has said in his forward of the "THE EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT"(first published in 1864), under "HISTORY OF ENGLISH VERSIONS"--that the KJV:
----"It has veen convicted of containing over 20,000 errors. Nearly 700 Greek MSS. are now known and some of them very ancient: WHERE AS the translators of the common version (KJV-my comment)had only the advantage of 8 MSS, none of which was earlier than the tenth century"
--THUS with so few MSS it would be easy for discrepancies to influence doctrine , without a refining of the text to provide accuracy.
---AND when Trinitarian translators & scholars want to give spurious backing to their beloved 3 headed god , the KJV can be a tool that suits their wishes!
--THUS THEY have "RAPED" the name of Jehovah or Yahweh from their versions some 7,000 times which are 7,000 examples of dishonesty in their rendering!

***NOW that there are thousands of manuscripts and other accuracy tools available , more & more translations are careful to provide closer renderings to what was originally inspired by God!
From: THE EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT.
(According to the Recension of Dr. J.J. Griesbach)'s INTERLINEARY WORD FOR WORD ENGLISH TRANSLATION!
(BASED ON THE INTERLINEARY TRANSLAION , ON THE RENDERINGS OF THE EMINENT CRITICS, AND OF THE VARIOUS READINGS OF--"THE VATICAN MANUSCRIPT") Unquote.

On being questioned about why the change of text and failure to use the name of God where it appears about 7000 times in ancient bible manuscripts, in the translation the Greek and Hebrew Text, to NIV, Edwin H. Palmer, Th.D., Executive Secretary for the NIV’s committee wrote:,

“Here is why we did not: You are right that Jehovah is a distinctive name for God and ideally we should have used it. But we put 2 1/4 million dollars into this translation and a sure way of throwing that down the drain is to translate, for example, Psalm 23 as, ‘Yahweh is my shepherd.’ Immediately, we would have translated for nothing. Nobody would have used it. Oh, maybe you and a handful [of] others. But a Christian has to be also wise and practical. We are the victims of 350 years of the King James tradition. It is far better to get two million to read it—that is how many have bought it to date—and to follow the King James, than to have two thousand buy it and have the correct translation of Yahweh. . . . It was a hard decision, and many of our translators agree with you.”

That is how all your bibles were translated. From the earliest copies of the Septuagint to the latest versions, human liberalism ruled over God's words. Most of the time, priority was given to church politics and profit. Not exactly what the old manuscripts or what the REALITY says.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of nicence creed:For millenia, through the messengers and prophets that He sent, God taught humans that God is ONE and then he also sent Jesus (pbuh), but after Jesus (pbuh) ascencion, 300+ years later, God is suddenly not ONE, but THREE in ONE.Through nicence creed, the new schizophrenic or multiple personality god decided in the fourth century
OK. You are wrong in your understanding of the Nicene Creed.
God is and has always been Trinity, one in essence and undivided.
Exactly! The Nicene creed neither creates additional gods nor creates a new understanding of God that Christians do not see as having already been present in the scriptures all along. It only serves to explicate that which we understand as having been previously implied regarding the internal nature of God, a nature which is now made clearer to us in the person and teaching of Jesus the Chirst. It affirms categorically that there is one and exactly only one God, not three. To read it to say something different than this is to not understand the Nicene Creed.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Exactly! The Nicene creed neither creates additional gods nor creates a new understanding of God that Christians do not see as having already been present in the scriptures all along. It only serves to explicate that which we understand as having been previously implied regarding the internal nature of God, a nature which is now made clearer to us in the person and teaching of Jesus the Chirst. It affirms categorically that there is one and exactly only one God, not three. To read it to say something different than this is to not understand the Nicene Creed.

Jesus never taught trinity.

The latin pagan romans and the myriads of rabbis and priests who wanted to get the favor of the latin communities twisted stories and attributed them to jesus and created the inexplicable, indefensible, illogical, evidence-lacking trinity.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

The latin pagan romans and the myriads of rabbis and priests who wanted to get the favor of the latin communities twisted stories and attributed them to jesus and created the inexplicable, indefensible, illogical, evidence-lacking trinity.
Really? Not just the priests, but myriads of rabbis too? I believe you have an even more vivid and overactive imagination than you accuse us Christians of having.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son

Really? Not just the priests, but myriads of rabbis too? I believe you have an even more vivid and overactive imagination than you accuse us Christians of having.

You clearly does not know history of your own religion, which is very very surprising, considering you are a pastor. But I shouldn't be surprised really, as most christians I've met demonstrated their severe lack of christianity history, of what bibles are, of history of bibles and the fundamentals of tehir own belief.

Jesus was a jewish teacher (aka rabbi), and all of his followers were jews, who later became teachers themselves (rabbis).

And christians do suffer from cognitive dissonance.
 
Re: Do all Christians believe Jesus is God and or God's Son


Jesus was a jewish teacher (aka rabbi), and all of his followers were jews, who later became teachers themselves (rabbis).

Ah, glad you cleared that up. So Jesus and his followers are the rabbis you refer to when you say
myriads of rabbis...created the inexplicable, indefensible, illogical, evidence-lacking trinity.
Hey, if Jesus and his followers said it, then even if it is inexplicable, indefensible, illogical, and evidence-lacking, I'm going to believe in the Trinity simply because they said so. I would think they would no better than either of us.
 

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