5,600 years since humanity began?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

According to a hadith narrated by many scholars, including Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the great hadith scholar and founder of the Hanbali school, in his ‘Ilal, our Prophet (saas) refers to the beginning of a new calendar, saying, the time that had passed in the world up until him was 5,600 years. Ismail bin Abdul Karim said from Abdussamed and he from Vahb that:

Five thousand six hundred years have passed from this world.

Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 88





Thoughts?

also...

 

[CosmicPathos]

That lineage has been taken from Israeliyat. Hardly the truth.

Earth is 4.2 billions years old. Anyone who says otherwise is insane.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ I am speaking about humanity, not the universe/earth itself.

its possible that Adam alaihissalaam existed around 6000 years ago.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Humanity is about 150,000 years old. We have human creation such as flutes, pottery as old as 40,000 years ago. We also dont have any human fossils that are 40 feet tall.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you CosmicPathos;

Humanity is about 150,000 years old. We have human creation such as flutes, pottery as old as 40,000 years ago.

5,600 years is roughly in line with Jewish scriptures and the Christian Old Testament, so I am happy to accept this. But for me it is more important to believe that God created Adam, I do not believe that God created apes that eventually evolved into Adam.

I cannot accept the theory of evolution in the way science explains it, I would rather trust in scripture.

In the spirit of searching for faith,

Eric

 

[CosmicPathos]

Greetings and peace be with you CosmicPathos;



5,600 years is roughly in line with Jewish scriptures and the Christian Old Testament, so I am happy to accept this. But for me it is more important to believe that God created Adam, I do not believe that God created apes that eventually evolved into Adam.

I cannot accept the theory of evolution in the way science explains it, I would rather trust in scripture.

In the spirit of searching for faith,

Eric

If evolution is true, I do not have a problem believing that humans evolved from animals, especially when many humans already show animal-like behavior. Moreover, in Quran God tells us that man has been created from fluid despised. There is no insult in accepting the fact if we really did evolve from lower animals, especially if God already tells us of our filthy origins. My problem is the fact that there is not enough evidence for evolution.

 

[Insaanah]

If evolution is true, I do not have a problem believing that humans evolved from animals, especially when many humans already show animal-like behavior. Moreover, in Quran God tells us that man has been created from fluid despised. There is no insult in accepting the fact if we really did evolve from lower animals, especially if God already tells us of our filthy origins. My problem is with the fact that there is not enough evidence for evolution.

Does this mean that you do not believe what Allah says in the Qur'an about creating Adam (alayhi assalaam) Himself with His hands?

Even Iblis acknowledged the fact:

And @ when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"[/COLOR] (17:61) [COLOR="#800080"][ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with Both My Hands? Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?" [/COLOR] (38:75)[/SIZE][/FONT];

 

[CosmicPathos]

And @ when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?" (17:61)[/quote] I believe that Adam was created from clay as the verse says. But animals are also created from clay, no? Allah swt also said at other place in Quran that all living things were created from water. So when Allah says clay in this ayat, He is clearly using different stages of human creation. Water, clay etc. This ayat in no way proves that Allah swt picked up clay stranded on the shore and made Adam out of it. And where does it say "by His own hands?" If there are other verses I am missing, please let me know. edit: Thanks for adding the second verse. I am not scholar of Quran but what does "Both my Hands" signify? Is Allah using that metaphorically to highlight the importance of humanity that its so spcecial that He had to use both His hands? Or did He really interact with matter and create Adam from stranded clay by His both Hands? Allah is all-powerful, He just kun and things are, why would He need to use hands to create human being? Even today, we say that Allah swt provides us rizq, Allah swt creates babies but we know that food comes from earning money and baby is created after a certain act and after sperm and eggs meet. w salam;

 

[Insaanah]

If evolution is true, I do not have a problem believing that humans evolved from animals, especially when many humans already show animal-like behavior. Moreover, in Quran God tells us that man has been created from fluid despised. There is no insult in accepting the fact if we really did evolve from lower animals, especially if God already tells us of our filthy origins. My problem is the fact that there is not enough evidence for evolution.

I see there's been a u-turn:

Originally posted by CosmicPathos:

so you are saying Adam had parents who were animal like? Did these "hominid like" parents, as you describe them, have souls? Did they commit zina as animals commit with each other? I am not sure Adam would be born to zaani "hominid like" parents.

If Adam's immediate parents were "homind like" and not entirely homo sapiens, then when did Adam become a homo sapien? When he was in womb of his "hominid like" mother's womb? Or later when he was undergoing puberty (yea ridiculous). Or hmm ?

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...-evolution-contradicts-quran.html#post1484736

I find it interesting and beautiful that in the Qur'an, Allah refers to the whole of humanity as:

Pickthall
"O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve." (7:35)

And doesn't refer to us as "O children of apes", or "O children of hominids", or O children of animals."

What hasn't been related to us about the conditions at the time of the creation of Adam (peace be upon him) and any other creatures present, all counts as matters of the unseen, which we don't need to delve into.

Scientific theories can change at the drop of a hat, even after years of being held as accepted fact, and are precisely that, theories. Postulated by other humans who have the same human limitations and failings as us, which people nowadays rely on to shape their view of the world and its origins. We don't need to somehow see if we can make our belief accomodate those theories.

Allah told us that he created our parents Adam and Hawwa (peace be upon them both). There is no reason whatsover in Qur'an or sunnah to suppose that they evolved from anyone or anything, the only reason would be to try to see if we can "modernise" or "adapt" our belief to fit in with the current day trend, and this is really not a good road to go down.

And Allah knows best in all matters, and may He forgive me if I said anything wrong.

 

[Insaanah]

edit: Thanks for adding the second verse. I am not scholar of Quran but what does "Both my Hands" signify? Is Allah using that metaphorically to highlight the importance of humanity that its so spcecial that He had to use both His hands? Or did He really interact with matter and create Adam from stranded clay by His both Hands? Allah is all-powerful, He just kun and things are, why would He need to use hands to create human being?

His hands are different from ours akhi, we cannot perceive them, and nor should we attempt to:

There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. (42:11, part)

Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not. (3:66, part)

He told us He created Adam (alyhi assalaam) with His hands, that's all we need to know.

 

[CosmicPathos]

I totally agree with you.

I've said I do not believe in evolution. I still stand by the old post you quote, no u-turns sister. I wrote that old post with the understanding that there is not enough evidence for evolution and it is hard to conceive when Adam evolved from a hominid-like creature. And what I wrote today is still based on lack of evidence. If evolution is indeed true (unlikely so though), it still does not overly contradict Quranic account of Man's creation.

I agree also we do not need to delve into it. I've stopped thinking about this, only replied cuz of the thread.

I hope I have not said something which is against the revealed truth.

w salam.

 

[CosmicPathos]

sister, forward to 4:00 mins.

 

[Independent]

With regard to the timeline you quoted - I know that evolution is not accepted in Islam, but from other threads i got the impression that other members do believe that mankind/the Earth may be very much older than this (ie even billions of years, as in the scientific view). Have i got the wrong impression? Or is this something which Muslims hold different views on?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ no many muslims take scientists as firm authority when it comes to the age of the world with the evidence of "If you do not know, ask those who do know" as encouraged by islaam.


Allaah knows best but I just thought islamically its possible that the human race doesnt reach as far back as I myself once assumed it did. I thought 124,000 prophets came through in the time span of several hundreds of thousands if not millions of years. But Allah can send his prophets in huge numbers if he so wishes. The earth is a big place with a huge population right, it only makes sense for God to send a huge amount of prophets to each nation.

 

[Perseveranze]

السلام عليكم

We need to be careful when it comes to handling hadith. I did a search to find out where you got the contents of the OP and only found it to be on some dodgy web sites.

There are many hadiths which talk about "age of humanity" or "age of earth", and what people (who are misguided) do, is that they try to use these hadiths to "predict" when Imam Mahdi or Judgement day will come.

All these hadiths are Da'if (weak/unauthentic), some of them are plain fabrications as well. Regarding the hadith in the OP;

---

The narration regarding the occurrence of 5600 years of the world, that is narrated by Abd al-Samad b. Ma'qil I- Wahb is also weak

- [Muhammad Bin Tahir - Sahih Wa Da'if Tarikh At-Tabari - Volume 6 - Page 5 - Hadith Number 3 - Footnote 3 - Source]

---

Should also be noted that not everything in Imam Ahmad's(ra) book is sound.

There's also similar hadiths, but this time the Earth is 7000 years old, which are also fabricated. Ibn Qayyim(ra) sums it up;

---

...And from these [guidelines] is that the report contradicts explicit passages of the Qur'aan, like the hadeeth about the length of the dunyaa, that it is 7000 years, and that we are in the seventh thousand. This is from the most obvious of lies, since had it been authentic, everyone would know that there can only remain 251 years! [Ibn al-Qayyim likely wrote this around the year 749] How can this be so when Allaah has said (what means), "They ask you about the Hour, when will it come? Say: 'Knowledge of it is only with my Lord. None can reveal its time other than Him. Its affair is heavy throughout the heavens and earth. It shall not come upon you except suddenly (without warning).' They ask you about it as if you know about it! Say: Its knowledge is only with Allaah." [al-A'raaf 7:187] And Allaah has said, [what means], "Verily with Allaah is knowledge of the Hour."

- [Ibn Qayyim al-Jowziyyah from his book, al-Manaar al-Muneef (pp.80-83)]

---

There's also another hadith which states the earth is 6,200 years old, but I think you already get the point; like the above, it's fabricated/unauthentic.

^ no many muslims take scientists as firm authority when it comes to the age of the world with the evidence of "If you do not know, ask those who do know" as encouraged by islaam.


Allaah knows best but I just thought islamically its possible that the human race doesnt reach as far back as I myself once assumed it did. I thought 124,000 prophets came through in the time span of several hundreds of thousands if not millions of years. But Allah can send his prophets in huge numbers if he so wishes. The earth is a big place with a huge population right, it only makes sense for God to send a huge amount of prophets to each nation.

Also, the 124,000 prophets hadith is weak (unauthentic). We don't truly know how many messengers Allah(swt) sent, we should just stay on the safe side and say like the Qur'an says;

---

And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e., do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). (Qur'ân 16:36)

---

And Allah(swt) knows best.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Persevranze, nice post, as usual.

 

[Perseveranze]

If evolution is true, I do not have a problem believing that humans evolved from animals, especially when many humans already show animal-like behavior. Moreover, in Quran God tells us that man has been created from fluid despised. There is no insult in accepting the fact if we really did evolve from lower animals, especially if God already tells us of our filthy origins. My problem is the fact that there is not enough evidence for evolution.

السلام عليكم

Evolution isn't the problem here, the problem is the belief that; Adam(as) came from or was a sub-human creature or that he(as) had a father or mother. We do not accept this, thus we do not (specifically speaking) accept "human evolution". Please read this article - http://www.jawziyyah.com/2009/11/evolution-prayer-mats-telescopes-2/

 

[CosmicPathos]

the problem is the belief that; Adam(as) came from or was a sub-human creature

Why is that problematic? Allah sswt already told us humans came from subhuman water and semen/fluid.

I am reading the article.

 

[Insaanah]

sister, forward to 4:00 mins.

Host: "Quran mein agar zikr nahin he to ghalat huwa". Translation: "If it's not mentioned in the Qur'an, it's not true". After this I stopped watching.

This man does not appear to believe in hadeeth, is firing off his own assumptions and firing questions, being quite arrogant, picking and choosing ayaat which he can use to support his views which he wants Dr Israr to succumb to and confirm, under TV pressure and rapid fire, and Dr Israr, may Allah bless him and grant him firdous, is doing his best to answer, still remaining calm and polite, under that pressure. This video shows nothing and has no importance or relevance, and certainly cannot be used as proof of anything. Googling the host, it seems he tends to advocate for those groups of Muslims on the very fringes of, or outside Islam.

If evolution is true, I do not have a problem believing that humans evolved from animals, especially when many humans already show animal-like behavior. Moreover, in Quran God tells us that man has been created from fluid despised. There is no insult in accepting the fact if we really did evolve from lower animals, especially if God already tells us of our filthy origins.

Why is that problematic? Allah sswt already told us humans came from subhuman water and semen/fluid.

You are getting confused.

When Allah refers to His creation of Adam (alyhi assalaam) specifically, He does not use the term despised fluid.

He uses the terms clay or dust.

It is subsequent generations of man in which conception involves despised fluid.

Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained. (32:7-8)

Adam was honoured by God, rather than being despised:

Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance. (20:122)

[Iblees] said, "Do You see this one whom You have honored above me? If You delay me until the Day of Resurrection, I will surely destroy his descendants, except for a few." (17:62)

My problem is the fact that there is not enough evidence for evolution.

But there is evidence from the Qur'an that Allah created Adam (alyhi assalaam) Himself, with His own hands.

The lack of evidence for evolution, is not a problem. Unless you really want to believe it.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Host: "Quran mein agar zikr nahin he to ghalat huwa". Translation: "If it's not mentioned in the Qur'an, it's not true". After this I stopped watching.

Ooh, I used the video to highlight Dr. Israr's answers, not the host. I do not even know who the host is.

Dr. Israr, who was a Quranic scholar of quite a high rank, does say in the video that evolution can fit in (for creation of Adam or after his creation, it is not clear). He also said that it is possible Allah swt created a whole generation of species out of whom He chose Adam as Prophet and the rest died off.

But yea, the host was being very provocative.

When Allah refers to His creation of Adam (alyhi assalaam) specifically, He does not use the term despised fluid.

Good point.

But there is evidence from the Qur'an that Allah created Adam (alyhi assalaam) Himself, with His own hands.

No one denies this. But we do not know what Allah's Hands mean or look like. It could involve a long process or it could be instant, you admitted that we do not exactly know what Allah using His Hands means. So it can be either way right? A long process of evolution (again guided by Allah's hands) or a direct creation? It is not as clear.