Atonement

[sumay28]

Okay. Thank you for your response. This is why I love Islam. Islam gives you 100% guidance if you follow it correctly. It's like a handbook for this life. Follow them, it'll all be gravy. Don't follow them... things are going to be difficult. The bible kind of leaves you like a blind chicken.

forget the story i had. nobody's business, really.

 

[POBook]

Hello Sumay28,
You seem to have pulled out from my clear responses to your questions. May I ask why?:?

Sincerely,

 

[POBook]

Hello again Ansar Al-‘Adl,

“I see you have dropped one analogy and moved on to another.”

First let me say that you are very skilled in debate. I sense you are also very knowledgeable. What chance do I have?

I would not say that I have dropped the analogy. Yes, if you do not understand the Trinity, I would like to find a way that will help you understand it. At the same time, I acknowledge that I can run out of finite illustrations to describe an Infinite GOD.

“The problem here is that the three states of water are simply that - states. They are not distinct entities.”

What do you mean by “distinct entities”? Are a pot, a carpet, and a clock distinct entities?

“If we have a group of water molecules, they will have a certain amount of kinetic (heat) energy. Depending on the amount of energy they have, the molecules will either be in solid state, liquid state, or gaseous state. The same molecules do not exist in all three states at the same time.”

Yes I agree. However, I would add that the molecules in a particular volume do not exist in all three states at one time. You have to set up a limit or specific volume of water. To say that all the water in the world is either in the state of liquid, solid, or gas would be incorrect. We all know that while water runs from a faucet in the form of liquid, water also sits in a freezer in the form of a solid and water steams from a boiling kettle in the form of gas. H2O around the world contains all three forms of molecular structure at some point and at some time. They all co-exist. I think it’s also important to understand that the alteration of the state of the molecule is not an alteration of the identity of the molecule. H2O is H2O whether in the molecular state of liquid, solid, or gas.
GOD is the H2O. Because God is eternal and is not confined or limited to a particular volume, as H2O, He exists in the molecular structure of liquid, the molecular structure of solid, and the molecular structure of gas all at the same time. He does not move from one molecular structure to another.

“Moreover, Christians maintain that there is still only ONE God, despite the existence of these three 'persons'.”

Christians maintain the triune molecular structure of H2O—GOD the Father, GOD the Son, and GOD the Holy Spirit. We do not maintain only ONE God and the existence of these three ‘persons’. GOD exists as three at the same time He exists as one.

“On the other hand, does it make sense to say that there is only one water?”

I’m not sure what you are saying here.

“So again, the bottom line is that there is no method of explaining logically how there can be three distinct entities co-existing, each individually God, and yet all-together there is still only one God.”

If you have H20 liquid on the continent of Africa; H20 solid on the continent of Asia; and H20 gas on the continent of South America, do you not have the three distinct entities co-existing? While distinct entities, are they not all H20?

“The conclusion is that neither of these can be interpreted as a statement of divinity”

What does this verse of Scripture mean to you: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God” (John 1:1)?

“If you want to prove the divinity of Christ from the scripture, you will have to bring explicit unambiguous proof.”

In Exodus 3:14 we read, “GOD said to Moses, ‘I AM who I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” The expression ‘I AM’ is the translation of the Hebrew word Yhwh—Yahweh—and is translated “Lord.” It was the personal name by which GOD revealed Himself. It occurs more than 6000 times in the Old Testament.

In John 8:58-59 we read, “’I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I Am.’ At this, they picked up stones to stone Him, but Jesus hid Himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” The Greek word for ‘I Am’ used here is eimi—to be. This term is not used in any context that contains limitation. ‘To be’ is eternal existence—no beginning and no end. People knew GOD existed before time. Jesus made them aware that He existed before time—that He was H2O in the molecular structure of liquid and He was also H20 in the molecular structure of solid.

“I noticed how you try to differentiate by using 'God' and 'GOD' but I must point out to you that in hebrew the word is just elohîm for both - there are no capitals in the language”

The only reason that I use the form GOD is in respect to Muslim people. They have a high regard for GOD, and I would like to respect that.

“I agree completely. So how do you know that the Israelites were not God in the true sense, and that the word was God in the true sense? How do we even know what the word is?”

The context of Psalm 82 clearly points out that the Israelites were not GOD in the true sense. John 1:1 clearly points out that the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD. There is no ambiguity here.

“This verse states, “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s…And if Jesus were God, why doesn’t the passage read ‘Christ is God’ rather that ‘Christ is God’s’?”

The literal greek translation of this verse says, “And Christ is of God.” As ice is of H20, so Jesus Christ is of GOD. “Christ, the Messiah, is the gift of God’s eternal love and mercy to mankind; for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that they who believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Christ in his human nature is as much the property of God as any other human being. And as mediator between God and man, he must be considered, in a certain way, inferior to God, but in his own essential, eternal nature, there is no inequality - he is God over all” (Clark).

“What we see is that here you have a statement in the Bible that Satan is theos and another statement that the word is theos. How can we take the latter as proof of the divinity of Christ and not the former as proof of the divinity of Satan? being the theos of this world does not exclude other worlds, does it?”

If you take either of these two verses out of context, you can twist them to mean what you want. 2 Corinthians 4:4 reads, “Regarding them: the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” GOD is not simply the theos of this age. He is the theos of all creation; of all time. GOD does not seek to blind the minds of unbelievers. The mind is about truth. Satan is a deceiver and a liar—a blinder of the mind. GOD wants us to see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ—who by the way, is “the image of GOD. Again, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD.” In the beginning means from eternity in what we know as the past. Before anything else came into existence, the Word existed. We need to remember that Satan was an angel created by GOD. Satan never existed in the beginning. So Satan could not have been GOD. Jesus was GOD.

“Now this is where it gets interesting....
Quote:
Originally Posted by POBook Quote:Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl “But you told me that God died for your sins.” “But on the other hand, Christians say that God died (i.e. ceased to exist, became extinct) for their sins.”
No, I told you Jesus Christ died for our sins.
This is fascinating! Not only did you explicitly mention before that God died for our sins (which you are now denying) but did you not also say that Jesus WAS God?!”

H2O in the molecular structure of ice was crucified. However, H2O, still existed. GOD is GOD. GOD is Jesus. GOD is the Holy Spirit. The context of the discussion is going to determine whether I call Jesus GOD or call Him Jesus. Either way, Jesus is GOD; GOD is Jesus.

“It is clear from these comments that you not only explicitly claim that God died for our sins, but you equate Jesus with God, saying that Jesus is divine.”

I do not equate Jesus with GOD. That would be two separate beings. Jesus was GOD Himself in the flesh. As GOD in the flesh, Jesus was Divine.

“However, the water molecules are either in solid state or in liquid state; the same molecules cannot be in multiple states at the same time.”

Are all the water molecules around the globe in the ice state, the liquid state, or the gas state? Or, can you find water molecules around the globe in each of these three states?

I said, “I appreciate you giving me the freedom to quote Paul. Yes, GOD is immortal. But GOD never died.” You responded, “I'm glad we agree on this. So if God never died, then why do you claim that God died for your sins?” You have taken my statement out of context. GOD came to this earth in the form of Jesus Christ. In this sense, GOD died for us. But as Creator of the universe, the H2O never died. H2O as the solid was crushed. But H2O never ceased to exist.

“Are you saying that God suffers from indecision and hesitation just like humans? What kind of omnipotent and omniscient God is this?”

To say that GOD suffers from indecision and hesitation suggests that indecision and hesitation have power and control over whom they effect. Carefully considering the consequences of your future actions is not the same as suffering from indecision and hesitation. These two factors involve lack of self-control. GOD was perfectly self-controlled.

“What message of salvation? You told me that the entire purpose was that God wanted to forgive his creation but couldn't since someone needed to bear the punishment so He decided to punish Himself. Isn't this true? So what message does He have to give to the people other than "Hello. I'm God and you're all sinners and I'm going to take the burden of your sins so I have the right to forgive you so please kill me."”

First, the message of salvation is this: “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is the simple message of Salvation. Jesus tried sharing this message for 3 years. Many Christians have tried sharing this message for two centuries—and still people do not believe. How would they believe the message in one statement if they cannot believe it after it has been clearly shared over and over again (I suspect you will make a certain response to this…but I will wait and see). Second, GOD did not come to this earth begging people to kill Him. He did not need to make this request. They…all of us…were in the wings, waiting to kill Him. Our sin is what took Jesus Christ to His death. He did not have to ask.

“I thought the entire purpose of the atonement was as you said, so God could acquire the right to forgive us. Now He has that right according to you, so why doesn't He forgive us? You mean that He went through all that pain for nothing? His ability to forgive us is still dependent on our will?”

We all have a choice to accept what GOD has done or we can reject it. GOD will no longer send us to hell for our sin. Unfortunately, too many of us choose to walk right past Him, rejecting His free offer of forgiveness, and we ourselves march down the road to eternal destruction. Because He has forgiven us, does not me that He is going to impose His desire on us. We have a free choice to accept his forgiveness or reject it.

“If I understand your analogy correctly, you are saying that (a) yes, God has paid for all our sins but (b) we should still avoid sin because neither we nor God likes it.”

Yes, GOD has paid the price for our sin. If we try to avoid sin simply because we don’t like it and GOD does not like it, then our motive is wrong and I question a sincere commitment of ourselves to GOD. We choose not to sin, because that’s the right thing to do. We choose not to sin, because we desire to please our Savior. We choose not to sin, not because we are trying to avoid it, but because we don’t want to sin.

“With regard to point (b) there are quite a lot of people who love to sin and couldn't care less if God didn't like it. God's already paid for their sins so either way they get salvation in paradise whether they fill their life with sin or spirituality.”

People who love to sin and couldn’t care less if GOD didn’t like it, are people who by their own choice are walking down the road to destruction. Jesus said in Matthew 7:14, “How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.” Through Jesus Christ, GOD has made a way for us to come to Him. The choice as to which road we take is up to us.

“I am not sure what you mean by "When GOD destroys our sinful human nature and gives us a clean, healthy nature". Does God's destruction of our sinful nature refer to when He was allegedly crucified? Clearly humanity is as sinful after that point in time as it ever was before, if not more.”

In Isaiah 1:18 we read, "Come, let us discuss this," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.” By identity, a born-again Christian has a clean, healthy nature. The old nature of sin, guilt, insignificance, and unimportance are gone. In our heart’s, mind, and conscience we sense freedom and purity. Yes, humanity is as sinful today as it was before. But through Jesus Christ, we can have a new life—a new nature; a new sense of identity.

“Moreover, you did NOT say that the purpose of the crucifixion was so that He could give us a "clean, healthy nature". You said that it was because God is just and He wanted to pay the price of our sins. Well if He has paid the price of our sins it means that we can sin. If you pay the price of something for me, then its mine.”

The purpose of the crucifixion was to pay the price for our sin. It was our atonement. When we humble ourselves and accept what GOD has done for us, and ask Him to change who we are, He does it…He simply does it. I speak from personal experience. Yes, GOD has paid the price for our sins. Yes, we can still sin. But that’s our choice. GOD is not going to force us to travel down the road of forgiveness and grace. He offers this road to each of us. If we choose to travel this road, GOD removes the load of sin we carry, at no cost to us, and we are holy in his sight and we have every right to enter the Kingdom of Heaven for eternity. Or, we can say no thanks; I can do this on my own; I’m not ready. And we continue down the path to destruction. It’s simple…it’s very simple.

Thanks again for your detailed response. I look forward to continuing dialogue.

 

[*Hana*]

Peace POBook:

Ok, we have to figure out a way to make these shorter. lol

I have to disagree with you. If GOD planned for these people to commit what they did,..

Ok, are you telling me God didn’t know this was going to happen? He just came down to wander among His creations and, darn, look what happened!! Come on, of course He planned for it to happen. And, yes, the atrocities committed by others against others also happens through His will. Why? We can’t know that. There are things only known by Allah, swt. You think God only created the good in this world? God created absolutely everything you can possibly imagine. I never attempt to put limitations on God and I try not to questions why He allows bad things to happen….regardless of what happens either to individuals or countries by way of catastrophes….all is by His will and all has been planned long before man was ever created.

Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men.”

What really puzzles me is why you want to have God be less than what He is. Why, would the creator need to become a creation. He knows better than we do what we are capable of as He gave us everything we have. Do you think He was unaware of what it was like to be a slave? What exactly becomes of a God that empties Himself? An empty God is no God at all.

Consider this verse from John 1:1, 14
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD…The Word became flesh and dwelt among us…”

Yes, I am very familiar with that quote, and you should realize that even your most respected Christian scholars agree, this is not a proper translation and could very possibly be another addition to biblical text.

However, these statements were not made by Jesus Christ, nor were they attributed to him by the author of the Gospel according to John. Therefore, these verses do not constitute evidence for Jesus’ divinity, especially considering the doubts held by Christian scholars about the Fourth Gospel. The Bible scholars who authored The Five Gospels said: “The two pictures painted by John and the synoptic gospels (i.e., the Gospels of Matthew, Mark & Luke) cannot both be historically accurate. The words attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel are the creation of the evangelist for the most part, and reflect the developed language of John’s Christian community.”

This can also lead to another thread, as I can go on and on about that verse. lol but for the purpose of this discussion, I think I’ve said enough about it.

Can you imagine a greater act of love; a greater act of humility than what GOD was willing to do in order to set the path between Himself and us straight. He was willing to dwell among us and be part of us for our benefit! What an amazing act of love on His part!

Are you saying that God is of no benefit to us unless He lowers Himself to that of a human and walks among us? Are you saying He doesn’t have the power, the knowledge or understanding to love us without becoming us? His amazing acts of love comes when He forgives because the sinner is sincerely sorry and repents and prays to Him for guidance. The love is Him accepting our prayers and continuing to guide us. Alhamdulillah!

I’m going to answer from last to first here. Obviously GOD did not Father satan. But neither did GOD create satan for whom we know him to be. Satan was created as an angel but in his desire to become GOD, he found himself eternally punished by his Creator.

Ummmm, If God didn’t created satan….who did??? You think satan out-smarted God? You really believe God didn’t know about satan and that satan would rebel? Why so much limitations on God? You don’t give Him a lot of credit, POBook. There is nothing you can do or plan to do that God is not aware….absolutely NOTHING.

There is a big difference between satan and Jesus. ...Concerning DNA, you would have found exactly the same DNA in Jesus as you find in any person. ...

POBook, I agree there is a HUGE difference between satan and Jesus, pbuh, my point was that regardless of the amount of evil found in one and the goodness in the other, both are creations of God. And, do really believe satan isn’t roaming about creating evil, etc?

Errrmmm, I doubt very much you find the DNA of Jesus, pbuh, in me or anyone else. Lol DNA comes from both parents….who provided the other ½ of His dna? You’re not suggesting that you, Adam and Jesus, pbut, share the same dna, which means the same parents. You’re tip-toeing around the dna problem here. You know as well as I do that some random person on the street today would probably not share my dna and the only ones who would share it are those that are related to me. So, I will ask you again….who provided the DNA for Eve, Adam and Jesus, pbut??

Actually, you also contradicted yourself here. You said Jesus, pbuh, was not a spirit….He became a man, then you said God doesn’t have DNA because he’s a spirit. He can be one or the other, but not both…so which is He? Oh and we know He can’t be both because your bible explains the difference between a spiritual being and non-spiritual.

First, if the end result of our journey has been determined, then the logic of this is that there must be at least two possible results and only one will come to fruition. ...
Second, on the day of Judgement, where is GOD going to tell you to go? To heaven or to hell? Do you know?

Ok, I guess you didn’t understand what I was trying to explain to you. There are 2 things we know with absolute certainty….1. We’ve been born, 2. we will die. God, knows both when we will be born and the day, hour and minute of our death. How we will die and when is already known by God. For all we know it could be 5 minutes from now, tomorrow, next week, etc. Our life here is temporary, it is not our final destination. Our goal is to be granted Jannah. Our life is a test. The start of our destination and the end of it….already known by God, (as He also explains in the bible). The tests come in forms of obstacles, decisions, choices, etc. My example for you was to show you one of these tests. I could have easily kept the money not caring that the girl could have lost her job or be made to pay it back from her pocket. As I said, there were many who said they would have kept it. My other choice was to return it, as many others would have also done. This is a small, simple example of a test. Of course these tests go on for a lifetime…..hence the forks in the path and our freewill to choose which path we take. But, all these forks, will ultimately lead to our time of destined death and there is no one who can prevent that from happening. I never said the ending changed, I said what transpires in the middle of the two points (beginning and end) is our freewill. We will be judged on the choices we make, the fork we opt to take.

Can I tell you I will achieve Jannah….nope. No one knows that….and quite frankly if you followed the teachings of Jesus, pbuh, instead of Paul, you would realize that too. Not knowing is what should keep up striving for it, not assuming that it will be handed to us and forgetting what God has commanded.

Hana_Aku: Please know that I say this with respect and not in a critical way: You have a great misunderstanding of the Scriptures and the context in which these Scriptures were written.

It’s ok that you feel that way, but it was because of studying the scriptures that I found truth in Islam. Alhamdulillah.

With all due respect, if you would read the scriptures without listening to all the analogies and parables, you would see the truth too. I have an enormous amount of respect for Christianity….don’t get me wrong about that. But, it’s the true Christianity taught by Jesus, pbuh, that you should be following, not a self-appointed disciple that is willing to lead you to Hellfire. These things we are discussing now I questioned when I was a little girl!!! No one then or now can explain them. When they can’t, they say, “you don’t have enough faith”, “you dare question God?” or your line, “You don’t have an understanding of the scriptures.” Tell me….why must it be me with the lack of understanding?

These righteous people upheld the law, didn’t they? Jesus did not teach the same message as others. ... In Matthew 5:17, Jesus says, “I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come to fulfill them.”

That part is correct. lol we agree on one part at least. (The verse, I mean). But, I have to disagree that His message was different from the prophets before Him….and the one that came after Him, Prophet Muhammed, pbuh. The basis of His (Jesus, pbuh), message was submission to the will of God, because that is the foundation of the religion which God prescribed for man since the beginning of time. Matthew 7:22, Jesus is quoted as saying: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven.” In this statement, Jesus places emphasis on “the will of the Father”, submission of the human will to the will of God. In John 5:30, it is narrated that Jesus also said: “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

The “will of God” is contained in the revealed laws the prophets taught their followers. Obedience to divine law is the basis of worship.

Jesus, pbuh, also said in the Gospel according to Matthew 19:16-17, to have made obedience to the divine laws the way to paradise: “16 Now behold, one came and said to him,“Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17So he said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” [50] Also in Matthew 5:19, Jesus Christ was said to have insisted on strict obedience to the commandments saying,

“Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus,pbuh stressed to his followers that his mission did not cancel the laws received by Prophet Moses, pbuh. As the prophets who came after Moses, pbuh maintained the law, so did Jesus, pbuh.

You put so many human attributes on God it’s like you’re trying to always drag him down to our level. We were created to worship Him and He gave instruction on how to do that. If you choose to follow a man NOT sent by God, your salvation is in serious jeopardy. You always talk like God owes us something, that He felt bad that we had to answer for our sins, our mistakes. Well, of course we do!!

How closely do you adhere to God’s laws?

Anyone that knows me will tell you I am far from perfect and I do make mistakes and I do sin.

Part of worshipping Allah, swt, is also turning to Him in repentance and asking Him for guidance. Allah, swt, knows the heart, knows our intentions, knows if we are sincere in our prayers and requests. As I’ve said over and over….I am solely responsible and will have to answer for all I do as will you.

Great to know you have a child—boy or girl. My wife and I have two girls—13 and 11

I have a wonderful little boy, 9 years old, Alhamdulillah.

Do you still sin?

Yes, unfortunately, I do. I am not perfect as I said. Do I set out to intentionally go against the laws just to spite Him….NEVER. But, of course I do sin, as all humans do, in various degrees perhaps, but sin they do.

To say that as long as we do our best for GOD He will have mercy on us, is to lower His standards to meet that of our own. We become our own measurement of righteousness. We make ourselves to be GOD.

These words come from Allah, swt. He tells us how much He loves us and how much He loves to forgive. Just a small part of his attributes, all merciful, just, all knowing, etc. Remember, it is not the Muslims that bring God down to our standards. Never would you hear a Muslim say that God became a human with all our impurities that degrade God rather than raise Him up to the status of the MOST high.

Please point out to me specific verses in this letter that coincide with what you are saying

1 John 1:3 ”…that which we have seen…” 1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves….” 1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

1 John 2:2: Then it goes on to say that Jesus, pbuh, takes them away….and for the whole world. Which is kinda odd, considering He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel….hardly the whole world.

1 John 2:3: “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”

And more, but this is too long already to be writing 1 John. lol

First, Jesus did more than simply claim divinity. He acknowledged His divinity and pointed His divinity out to the Jews. John 8:58 says, “’I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’”

The concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘an. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as: “ 5Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”

Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”

According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”

So, yes, as I have been saying all along, Allah, swt, is the best of planners and knows everything that has happened and will happen before we know it.
Hmmm, ok, I hope I have answered everything, if not, please remind me.

Peace
Hana

 

[sumay28]

Hello Sumay28,
You seem to have pulled out from my clear responses to your questions. May I ask why?:?

Sincerely,

I've been very lathargic lately. And I'm usually fierce when it comes to the Bible. Thank you for smacking me to wake up and get in on the debate. It's on like donkey kong!!!!!! ;D

If you have a very difficult decision to make about something you know you have to do, do you not find yourself struggling with yourself. You are trying to weigh up the pro's and con's of this decision. On the one hand, you don't want to do what must be done. On the other hand you you know you must do it. There is a struggle there.

This is GOD we're talking about here. I just can't imagine God, coming down as a human being, struggling like a human being, and yet he's clearly not human. He's walking on water, bringing life to the dead, yet he's struggling with a decision?

Luke 23:46 says, "Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit.' When He had said this, He breathed His last.
John 19:30 says, "When He had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Which one is it??

My guideline for life is the Bible. It contains all I need to know to live productively and constructively.

And could you list these guidelines?

Well, the first step in true Christianity is accepting Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior. This is what Christianity is. It is not trying to do a lot of good things with the hope of getting to heaven.

Islam is the opposite. We are taking a test and trying to get all the right answers in before Allah tells us to put our pencils down. As you probably know. Some of us burn holes in our wallets in God's cause. We look at this life as nothing but a bridge that we're trying to get across. You can't get any more humble than that. Nothing wrong with it..


POBook, honey, I really enjoy reading your posts. Masha Allah, you seem to have so much patience. I don't agree with a lick of what you're saying, but I like ya. May Allah lift the veil from your heart, may he open your eyes so you can see the beautiful light around Islam, may he open your ears to the truth, may he guide you and make your children pious. Ameen. I hope you get a nice taste of Islam because I will put my life on the line for this deen. It's the truth, it's the meaning of life, and it just makes me a happier person overall. To know that everything is in Allah's hands, comforts me. I hope someday you will take that passion that you have and direct it toward what is true. Christianity is a puppet show. You've gotta look closely to see the strings.

 

[mansio]

Sumay

According to Gospel of John 3:18 you are condemned (probably to hell) if you do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God. So before you wish well to others you should take care of yourself first.

 

[POBook]

Hello again Hana_Aku,

You are fast:happy: I will respond again. Please be patient...and thanks for your patience and your continuing dialogue.

“I don’t believe He died on the cross.”

Why do you believe Christ never died on the cross?

“Even if I took my friend’s punishment, it doesn’t change the fact she sinned.”

Exactly. She sinned. Nothing can change that.

“SHE, not me is still going to answer for her sins and, yes of course, my friend will still need to be forgiven for the sin she committed. Even by agreeing to take the punishment doesn’t make her sinless.”

Why will either of you have to answer for the sins? What is your understanding of forgiveness? What is your understanding of a “sentence served”? You taking the punishment does not make her sinless, but the punishment has been given and the sentence has been served. Must the sentence be served by two different people? It’s like your friend coming to you and saying, “Look, I know you have served my sentence. I realize that I do not have to serve the sentence as well. However, I just cannot accept what you have done for me. I need to go and serve the sentence as well.” This is the rejection of forgiveness and the choice to bear consequences. What GOD first saw, was sin. Then He saw a punishment for that sin. As a Holy, Righteous GOD, He no longer sees the sin. He sees the sentence served. Because a prisoner served his time in jail, does not mean that he never committed a crime. What it does mean is that he no longer has to pay a price for his crime. The price has been paid.

“He tried, in vain, to have Himself cleared of wrong doing. He tried to defend Himself.”

Where in the gospels is this self-defense recorded? Can you give me references?

“You want us to believe He was happy and content to be tortured, beaten, battered, bruised and hung?”

No. I do not want you to believe this at all. He was not happy. This was the saddest and loneliest time of His life on this earth. I would say He was content in some respects. He prayed to His Father, “Not my will, but Yours be done.” Contentment does not always reflect happiness. But it always reflects acceptance.

“And to put God on the same status as man, as I said before is nothing less than blasphemous.”

I apologize if I have offended you in any way. Was Jesus an ordinary man? Did Jesus sin?

“And I will reiterate what I said to both you and PrIM3: God is the planner of ALL things, both before the creation of this world and long after it’s gone. NOTHING happens here but by His will and planning.”

And I will ask you once again…and please answer this question: Did GOD will and plan little children to be aborted? Did GOD will and plan woman to be raped? Did GOD will and plan people to take drugs? Did GOD will and plan for people to steal, kill, destroy, lie, and deceive? Did GOD will and plan all these things? If you came home and found that your child had been severely raped and beaten (this happens all the time all around the world), are you going to say that GOD willed and planned that?

“Finally, it seems you understand why it is totally illogical to have Jesus, pbuh, take sins from those who committed them”

Allow me to say again. Jesus does not remove the sins we have committed. He removes the price that needs to be paid for those sins. So many people do not understand forgiveness. They say they forgive but each year they remember pain that may have been inflicted on them and they still struggle with feelings of anger and hatred. This is not true forgiveness.

“Now, please tell me know how punishing the 2 people will totally relieve you of your sin. Punish whoever you want….you still sinned, you are still responsible. And what kind of justice would I be giving my child if I didn’t teach him to be responsible for them. Teaching him “don’t worry, someone else has already taken your punishment….go, be free, sin, God will love you even if you disobey Him….”

Allow me to make myself a little more clear. There is a difference between discipline and punishment. Discipline has the purpose of education and improvement. Punishment is simply paying the price for something done wrong. It has no particular purpose to it. The issues of mercy and justice are attached to punishment, not discipline. Parents who simply punish their children, accomplish nothing. Parents who discipline their children work toward their growth, maturity, and well-being. It is good to discipline. Discipline must never be taken away. Discipline must be experienced. In this sense, punishment is neither good or bad. It’s simply a fulfillment of a law. To break a law of punishment means the punisher must be punished. When I talked about “parents” I did not have in mind 2 people. The principle of a law giver paying the price for a law breaker is my point. One last question on this issue: If your child disobeys you, are you going to hate your child or are you going to hate the action he or she performed?

Again, thanks for your continuing dialogue. I look forward to hearing from you and seeing your answers to my questions.

Sincerely,

 

[*Hana*]

Sumay

According to Gospel of John 3:18 you are condemned (probably to hell) if you do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God. So before you wish well to others you should take care of yourself first.

Mansio:

Who is this John? Who is the author of that book? If you know, you might want to inform the most respected biblical scholars, as they have already admitted they don't know who authored John and are convinced the author is not quoting Jesus, pbuh, but is speaking as an evangulist to his community. The book of John has been a major controversy for many years within the Christian and Biblical scholar community. The vast majority agree....this author was definitely not an eyewitness to anything and the authenticity of this book is in serious doubt.

So, unless you find the Gospel according to Jesus, pbuh, stating in no uncertain terms He is the biological son of God and condemns you to Hell if you don't believe it....you might want to find something a little more reliable to quote.

Peace,
Hana

 

[mansio]

Hana Aku

You're right, nobody knows who wrote the Gospel of John. I used the word John to show were the verse stood in the Gospels.
You do not believe either that the longest chapter of the Quran was written by a prophet called Baqara.
I think it was the authorship of the Gospel who raised controversies and not its content.
Quite on the contrary that Gospel is the most read part of the NT, and when Christians distribute their scriptures it is always the Gospel of John that is distributed first. I have a number of those John booklets in various languages.

As a Muslim you should know that faith does not rest on solid ground, but on what the believers think of reality.
So Christians believe their scriptures are from God, and as the Gospel of John belongs to them, it is also from God.
It must be added that many Christians also think it is the apostle John himself who wrote it.
As of the Gospel according to Jesus, it exists at the moment more in Muslim imagination than in reality.

 

[*Hana*]

Hana Aku

You're right, nobody knows who wrote the Gospel of John. I used the word John to show were the verse stood in the Gospels.
You do not believe either that the longest chapter of the Quran was written by a prophet called Baqara.
I think it was the authorship of the Gospel who raised controversies and not its content.
Quite on the contrary that Gospel is the most read part of the NT, and when Christians distribute their scriptures it is always the Gospel of John that is distributed first. I have a number of those John booklets in various languages.

As a Muslim you should know that faith does not rest on solid ground, but on what the believers think of reality.
So Christians believe their scriptures are from God, and as the Gospel of John belongs to them, it is also from God.
It must be added that many Christians also think it is the apostle John himself who wrote it.
As of the Gospel according to Jesus, it exists at the moment more in Muslim imagination than in reality.

Peace:

Actually, you are mistaken, BIG TIME. Not only the authorship of John is in question, the content is also in question. The one verse Christians quote most..."The word...." has been totally mis-translated and it is believed more and more that this was introduced into the book for dramatics. I don't particularly care how often a Christian chooses to quote from the book of John, lol, it doesn't mean the content is correct. All it means is they have been mislead for centuries.

Quotes are taken from both the NT and OT where it serves the purpose at the time. Where it doesn't serve, it is dismissed as "oh, that's the old law which has been abolished". Gimme a break, everyone knows that. The OT is accepted sometimes and sometimes not. When trying to defend Paul....ohhh, you can't quote from the OT. It doesn't matter that Jesus, pbuh, was clear the laws were not to be changed.

Christians can believe whatever they want about who wrote John, who added what and who didn't. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. I take the word of Biblical and Christian scholars and when they say there are serious problems with the book of John....then I would recommend Christians stand up and take notice. Should they choose not to see it....it's not my problem. But, when their entire salvation is based on it...sure I'm concerned for them, otherwise I wouldn't bother giving Da'wa.

Since when do Muslims have "the Gospel according to Jesus inside the Qur'an?" The Holy Qur'an doesn't tell stories "according to" anyone. Muslims believe the entire Qur'an is directly from God....not from some writers over centuries and translators that took liberties with it's content. What makes you think any prophet has a book inside the Qur'an? I think you might want to learn a little more about Islam before you jump into a debate that, I might add, was going on with total respect for the others' opinion.

This was not going as a bashing session and I won't be part of turning it into one. This thread is also not about who wrote John, but if you would like to start one, please feel free.

So, unless you have something beneficial to add, with respect, to the topic of Atonement, I will not reply to your posts.

Regards and Peace,
Hana

 

[sumay28]

Sumay

According to Gospel of John 3:18 you are condemned (probably to hell) if you do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God. So before you wish well to others you should take care of yourself first.

Dude..... :uhwhat

 

[PrIM3]

hello, All

Atonement... by definition terms The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus..

Philippine 2:6-11 who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant. being made in humans likeness. And being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross.
therefore God exalted him to the Highest place and gave him the name that is above every name. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth. and every tongue confess that Jesus christ is Lord. to the glory of God the Father.

not sure if this has anything to do with anything.. please forgive me if it doesn't but us Christians. well atleast some of us. view it like this:
God is more like a horse trainer and you are the horse that was raised in the wild by its own mother horse and papa horse. now God captured you and is now set on taiming you.
and you as a horse will have to accept him or not..

thanks for listening
God bless you guys.

PS.
not sure if I missed any questions so if I did please tell me.

 

[*Hana*]

Peace POBook:

Why do you believe Christ never died on the cross?

Ohhhh, all the reasons are far too numerous to mention here, but to name a few: 1. Not ONE single eye witness to this “miraculous” event. "All his disciples forsook him and fled"- (Mark 14:50). 2. Jesus, pbuh, never taught it or talked about it. 3. He faced His disciples “after” as a man. "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet." Luke 24:39-403. Paul, a hater of Jesus, pbuh, created this fabrication. Anyway, that too is a topic in itself and I could go on and on about that. loool

Where in the gospels is this self-defense recorded? Can you give me references?

Here is one verse of the bible: "to the slaughter like a lamb, like a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth" - (Isaiah 53:7).
And here are other verses that show He most certainly did try to defend Himself: Before Pontius Pilate: "My kingdom is not of this world" — (John 18:36). Before the Sanhedrin: "... I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, where the Jews always gather; and in secret have 1 said nothing John 18:20 "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil, but if well, why smitest thou me?" — (John 18:23).

So, to say “he opened not his mouth” isn’t exactly the truth, is it. Or, maybe it’s John that’s wrong here? Whichever one is wrong makes little difference really. It only takes one error and you have to wonder how many other verses are also in error.

I apologize if I have offended you in any way. Was Jesus an ordinary man? Did Jesus sin?

You haven’t offended me at all, but I doubt God is too happy being compared to one of His creations. Yes, Jesus, pbuh, was a man. One of the greatest Prophets, chosen by God to bring His message. If He were just an “ordinary” man, He wouldn’t be a prophet of God. He was exceptional in His character and free of sin as was the will of Allah, swt. If you’re asking if He was ordinary in requiring what all men need to survive, yup, he sure was. He would hunger, thirst, cry, relieve Himself, etc. No divinity in that.

And I will ask you once again…and please answer this question: Did GOD will and plan little children to be aborted? Did GOD will and plan woman to be raped?

Actually, I have answered you numerous times about this. NOTHING happens but by the will of Allah, swt. If you ask me why bad things happen to good people, and vice versa, I can’t answer you. Just as Jesus, pbuh, didn’t have all the answers only known by God, neither do I or anyone else on the planet. You’ll have to wait and question Him on His wisdom and knowledge and if you feel He is wrong, then you better take that up with Him….but I don’t want to be standing next you when you do. kay:

Allow me to say again. Jesus does not remove the sins we have committed. He removes the price that needs to be paid for those sins. So many people do not understand forgiveness. They say they forgive but each year they remember pain that may have been inflicted on them and they still struggle with feelings of anger and hatred. This is not true forgiveness.

By what you say, removing the consequences from sinning is the same as removing sin. There is no incentive to stop sinning. I can forgive someone that wrongs me, as a fellow human being, and have many times. Inshallah, they have also forgiven me when I made mistakes. But, when you blatantly break the laws of God…you alone will answer to Him. You can bounce around the issue, but the fact remains, just as Jesus, pbuh, taught, each person will be responsible for themselves.

There is a difference between discipline and punishment. Discipline has the purpose of education and improvement. Punishment is simply paying the price for something done wrong.

Webster’s English Dictionary definition: Discipline: n. training; subjection to control; punishment; vt. Train: bring under control; punish. Punish: vt. Chastise or discipline for a fault; punishment n. And if you look in the Webster’s English Thesaurus, you will see these two words are also interchangeable.

So, as I’ve told you before, yes I would punish/discipline my son when he makes a mistake and no, it doesn’t mean I don’t love him. And, God, with all His love and mercy, will have me answer for my mistakes on The Day of Judgment. The difference is, He is far more loving, merciful and just than any of us could ever hope to comprehend.

Hope this cleared it up for you.

Peace,
Hana

 

[*Hana*]

Atonement... by definition terms The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus..

Hello and Peace PrIM3:

Thank you for the Christian definition of Atonement. Now I will provide the universal definition as per Webster's Dictionary: vi. & vt. expiate; make reparation. And the online dictionary: 1. making of amends: the making of reparation for a sin or a mistake
2. A·tone·mentreconciliation between God and people: in Christian belief, the reconciliation between God and people brought about by the death of Jesus Christ (as you see, a slight variation of the word).

Philippine 2:6-11 who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,...

This comes from Paul, not Jesus, pbuh. Can you show me where Jesus, pbuh, is quoted as saying that?

not sure if this has anything to do with anything.. please forgive me if it doesn't but us Christians. well atleast some of us. view it like this:
God is more like a horse trainer and you are the horse that was raised in the wild by its own mother horse and papa horse. now God captured you and is now set on taiming you.
and you as a horse will have to accept him or not..

God, doesn't capture, He guides. He sent the same message to all the prophets, "Thy Lord Thy God is ONE God." Do not worship other's beside Allah, swt. It is your first commandment. Don't try to bring God down to our level, this is impossible. Just as it is impossible for us to fully comprehend the greatness of God. God sent the message to you through Jesus...the way to eternal life is to keep the commandments. No need for all these other additions to His message. It's simple and it's clear....Worship God, obey the commandments.

thanks for listening
God bless you guys.

You're welcome and may Allah, swt, continue to guide you to truth. Ameen

Peace
Hana

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello POBook and thank you for your post,
This is what I meant by looooong posts .

At the same time, I acknowledge that I can run out of finite illustrations to describe an Infinite GOD.

I am not asking you to illustrate for me the measure of God's attributes, which are of course infinite. I am asking you to explain to me the nature of those attributes, specifically the trinity, which I find to be logically incoherent.

What do you mean by “distinct entities”?

I suppose it is really up to Christians to define this, but basically by 'distinct entities' what is meant is that there are independent identifiable units, the father, the holy spirit, the son. Each of these three has unique characteristics which they do not share. For example, the father is unbegotten where as the son is 'begotten' (or generated) from the father and the spirit proceeds from the father. See this diagram for what is meant by distinct:

The above diagram is a perfect example of what I find logically incoherent.

H2O around the world contains all three forms of molecular structure at some point and at some time. They all co-exist.

But here we are not talking about the same substance existing in three different states. The trinity says that ONE God exists in three different persons. By analogy, you need to bring me an example of ONE entity existing as three seperate entities, each being co-equal and equal to the overall entity. Can you bring me molecules of water that exist IN ALL THREE STATES AT THE SAME TIME? Of course not. The closest to this is the triple point of water in thermodynamic equilibrium, but of course here it is different water molecules in different states, not the SAME molecules existing in all three states.

GOD is the H2O.

H2O is the molecular formula for a TYPE OF MOLECULE. It is not an entity in itself. God, on the other hand is a SINGLE ENTITY. 'God' is not the name of a type of entity for which there are many entities. There is only ONE God. But there is a immeasurable quantity of water molecules. The two are not analogous. The former is a single entity, the latter is the chemical classification of a number of entities.

We do not maintain only ONE God and the existence of these three ‘persons’.
GOD exists as three at the same time He exists as one.

What is the difference between these two statements?

If you have H20 liquid on the continent of Africa; H20 solid on the continent of Asia; and H20 gas on the continent of South America, do you not have the three distinct entities co-existing? While distinct entities, are they not all H20?

If this analogy works, then it means that you believe in three gods. Because there are three seperate entities, and they are all God. Can you show me how you get ONE God from the above analogy? You don't because there is not a single thing mentioned in your analogy that is only one. There are three different things mentioned that are the same type of thing. It is only comparable to three Gods - three different things, but all the same type of thing.

What does this verse of Scripture mean to you: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God” (John 1:1)?

It doesn't mean very much to me. First of all, it is not Jesus speaking who never claimed to be God, but it is only the words of John, at best. Secondly, the context of the verse itself does not really allow for attributing divinity to anything. As Dr. Ali Ataie comments on the grammar of the verse:

In the first occurrence of the predicate noun “God,” it is preceded by the definite article “ton.” Therefore, the translation, “and the Word was with (the) God” is correct. The second occurrence of the predicate noun “God,” is not preceded by a definite article ton yet the Christians continue to render it as “and the Word was God” when in reality it should read, “and the word was a god.” According to Greek rules on grammar, however, a predicate noun that is preceded by a verb may be
translated as definite according to context. For example in John 4:19 we are told: “The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.” This verse can also be translated as “I perceive that thou art the
Prophet,” because the predicate noun “prophet” is preceded by the verb “ei,” or “art.” In John 1:21, the Jews ask John the Baptist, “Art thou the Prophet?” This is in reference to the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18, not
just any prophet. The Jews are asking him a very specific question. The woman in John 4:19 simply remarks that Jesus is a prophet. Again, the context is what determines the usage. Jesus never claims that he is
God in the Bible and always considers himself subordinate to Him, so while the translation offered by Christians of John 1:1 is grammatically correct, it is contextually incorrect.​

So whatever meaning you wish to ascribe to the 'word' of God, it is clear that it is only as much a 'god' as Moses was.

In Exodus 3:14 we read, “GOD said to Moses, ‘I AM who I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” The expression ‘I AM’ is the translation of the Hebrew word Yhwh—Yahweh—and is translated “Lord.” It was the personal name by which GOD revealed Himself. It occurs more than 6000 times in the Old Testament.

In John 8:58-59 we read, “’I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I Am.’ At this, they picked up stones to stone Him, but Jesus hid Himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” The Greek word for ‘I Am’ used here is eimi—to be. This term is not used in any context that contains limitation. ‘To be’ is eternal existence—no beginning and no end. People knew GOD existed before time. Jesus made them aware that He existed before time—that He was H2O in the molecular structure of liquid and He was also H20 in the molecular structure of solid.

To make things easier, I will once again quote Dr. Ali Ataie:

John 8:58 – Before Abraham was, I AM
The Christians claim that Jesus uses the Divine Name “Yahweh” that God gave to Moses in Exodus 3:14 as referring to himself in this oft-repeated verse. Let’s examine this claim more closely. The New Jerusalem Bible has translated this phrase “I am that I am” from “Ehe’ye asher ehe’ye” (Hebrew) as “I am He who is: Ego emi, Ho on” (Greek). The commentary of this verse states that this rendering of the original Hebrew of Exodus 3:14 is exactly how the seventy translators of the Greek Septuagint (LXX)2 understood the meaning to be, and these were highly educated Greek-speaking Hebrew scholars. Essentially God is telling Moses that “He who is” or He that can never die has sent him unto Pharaoh.

The Divine attribute is the phrase “Ho on” (He who is), yet Jesus in John 8:58 simply says, “Before Abraham was, ego emi.” He does not claim the divine attribute used in the Septuagint which educated Jews at the time of Jesus would have been aware of. Again, we have Christian word games being played here. The words in English are the same, namely “I am.” The Greek of John, however, is different than the Greek of Exodus 3:14. Let’s look at the entire passage:

​

“Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” – John 8:52-59. ​

So what does Jesus mean by “Before Abraham was, I am,” and why do the Jews pick up stones? Jesus is simply claiming his legitimacy in a very clever way. The Jews were so proud that they were the progeny of Abraham, so he (Jesus) hits them where it hurts most. He basically says, “Before Abraham was born into this earthly existence, I was in the knowledge and Will of God. When we all existed before the creation of the physical universe in spiritual form, Abraham longed to see my day, the day of the Messiah.” Jesus is saying that since God knew him and made him Christ before the creation of Abraham, he (Jesus) is just as legitimate as Abraham. God tells the Prophet Jeremiah: “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). This is precisely what Jesus meant when he said: “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”
(John 17:5). Is it unusual for a Prophet to speak like this? Did any other prophets prove their “bona-fides” by suggesting their pre-existence in the Will and infinite knowledge of God? The best of creation, the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace and blessings) once said, “I am the seal the of the Prophets when Adam was in clay.” Surely this makes Muhammad more worthy of being a god-incarnate since Adam predates Abraham chronologically. Alas, the fundamentalist Christian’s programmed mind can only see in black and white.

Even the Baptist cousin of Jesus warns the Jews: “And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham” (Matthew 3:9). - See Chapter 6 for a meaning of this verse. Your Christian friend may explode, “Then why do the Pharisees pick up stones?” The answer is because Jesus is claiming to be genuinely sent from God and His anointed. We are told in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:20 that false prophets must be killed. Turn the tables on your Christian buddy and ask him, “If the Jews truly believed that Jesus claimed to be God, then why don’t they use these ‘claims’ as evidence against him in the religious High Court of the Sanhedrin?” We are told in Mark 14:55: “And the chief priests and the whole council gathered together to find evidence that would warrant a death sentence, but failed to find any” (Revised English Bible). They couldn’t even get two witnesses to agree with each other! Having no reason to kill Jesus, the Jews pulled a “180” and changed their charge from blasphemy, a religious crime, to sedition or treason, a political crime. Why? Because they knew that Pilate, the Roman Procurator, would have little mercy on enemies of the state. After Pilate tells the hoards of Jews shouting for Jesus’ execution that he finds no fault in Jesus, the Jews very cleverly answer, “If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar” (John 19:12). Therefore, Pilate had little choice but to hand him over to be crucified.

The Christian will at this point be obstinate. He will cry, “No! They killed him because he claimed to be God, not just a prophet!” Answer this by simply asking him if any of the previous Hebrew prophets ever claimed to be God. He will say no. Then inquire as to why they were killed by the Jews? Jesus lashes out against his people: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). Is it surprising that the Jews are constantly picking up stones against Jesus when many of the previous prophets were stoned, and they never claimed to be God?

Josh McDowell says in his book More than a Carpenter whose cover boasts over 10,000,000 copies printed worldwide (emphasis mine): “An analysis of Christ’s testimony shows that he claimed to be 1) the Son of the Blessed One (God); 2) The One who would sit at the right hand of power, and 3) the Son of Man who would come on the clouds of heaven. Each of the affirmations is distinctively messianic.” I agree. They were claims to be the Christ, not God. (Ataie, In Defense Of Islam, pp. 9-12)​

And from Dr. Laurence Brown:

‘Evidence’ #4 -- Jesus is recorded in John 8:58 as having said, “...before Abraham was, I AM” and Exodus 3:14 records God as having informed Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
First of all, according to the words of Jesus, is a person to conclude that Jesus had a pre-human existence? According to Jeremiah 1:5, so did Jeremiah. According to the Islamic religion, so did all mankind. Next, is a person to draw a parallel between the ‘I AM’ attributed to Jesus and that attributed to God? Once again the foundational text pokes fun at the translation. Jesus is not recorded to have said “...I AM” in capital ‘makes-me-look-like-God’ letters. Jesus is translated as having said “...I AM” in a ‘looks-like-God’s-words-in-Exodus, think-they’ll-buy-it?’ effort at textual synchronization. What Jesus is recorded to have said is ‘eimi’ in small, humble, uncapitalized, unprepossessing and non-exclusive (found 152 times in the New Testament) Greek letters which don’t justify capitals or comparison with the supposed words of God in Exodus (which themselves are not capitalized, either in the Hebrew ‘hayah’ or the Greek Septuagint ‘ho ohn’). By no means can the New Testament Greek ‘eimi’ attributed to Jesus be compared with the Old Testament Greek ‘ho ohn’ attributed to God in the Septuagint. By no means of honesty or accuracy, that is. Likewise, neither can either one of these phrases honestly be capitalized “I AM,” especially in light of the 151 other instances of ‘eimi’ being translated to the uncapitalized, “I am.” Why is ‘eimi’ capitalized once and not capitalized 151 times, if not due to the selective desires of the translators? To their own credit, most reputable Bibles avoid this textual games-playing, and translation of the words of Jesus are not capitalized to ‘I AM’ in the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version, the New Revised Standard Version, the American Standard Version, and many others. (Brown, The First and Final Commandment, p. 112)​

At this stage I should probably mention that in discussion of Christianity and Islam and the Bible and Qur'an, I will often quote from Dr. Ali Ataie and Dr. Laurence Brown who have authored the best works of Comparative Religion from the Islamic Perspective.

Dr. Ali Ataie, of the Muslim Interfaith Council, has written the book In Defense of Islam which is a comparative religion book for Muslims. His material is available from his website http://www.voiceforislam.com/

Dr. Laurence Brown MD, has written a encylopedic work on Christianity, Judaism and Islam entitled, The First and Final Commandment which is intended for Non-Muslims. Some of his material is available from his website http://www.leveltruth.com

I will skip over the points I've already commented on; if you feel I;ve missed something important, please let me know.

I do not equate Jesus with GOD.

When you say that God is Jesus and Jesus is God, that is equating the two, to me at least.

Are all the water molecules around the globe in the ice state, the liquid state, or the gas state? Or, can you find water molecules around the globe in each of these three states?

Likewise, are you saying that we can find differnt Gods in different states? Some Gods are fathers, some Gods are sons, and some Gods are Holy Spirits? Because that is the only thing that is analogous to what you;ve described.

I said, “I appreciate you giving me the freedom to quote Paul. Yes, GOD is immortal. But GOD never died.” You responded, “I'm glad we agree on this. So if God never died, then why do you claim that God died for your sins?” You have taken my statement out of context. GOD came to this earth in the form of Jesus Christ. In this sense, GOD died for us.

Either God died or He didn't die. You'll have to choose. The only way your water analogy works is if there are multiple Gods and only one from many of them dies.

To say that GOD suffers from indecision and hesitation suggests that indecision and hesitation have power and control over whom they effect. Carefully considering the consequences of your future actions is not the same as suffering from indecision and hesitation. These two factors involve lack of self-control. GOD was perfectly self-controlled.

God is also All-knowing. He already knows the consequences of what He will do and He is not a human to have to think them over.

First, the message of salvation is this: “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is the simple message of Salvation. Jesus tried sharing this message for 3 years.

Why waste time? Just tell everyone, "Hey I'm going to die for your sins because I love you so much" and get it over with.

Many Christians have tried sharing this message for two centuries—and still people do not believe. How would they believe the message in one statement if they cannot believe it after it has been clearly shared over and over again (I suspect you will make a certain response to this…but I will wait and see).

Well I wasn't even planning on responding to this point since I have previously, but since you are anticipating a response I would just point out that nothing was said about belief in the discussion on atonement. The point was that God just had to die because someone needed to be punished for all these sins.

Secondly, there were believers before the time of Prophet Jesus who already had a perfect system of forgiveness in effect. They believed in God, they prayed, repented, made sacrifice to Him. There was no need for an atonement. And why the atonement in the middle of humanity's stay on earth? Why not at the beginning or at the end?

Second, GOD did not come to this earth begging people to kill Him. He did not need to make this request. They…all of us…were in the wings, waiting to kill Him. Our sin is what took Jesus Christ to His death. He did not have to ask.

But He wanted to be killed and seeing as that was the purpose of His vacation on earth, He should have said so immediately.

We all have a choice to accept what GOD has done or we can reject it. GOD will no longer send us to hell for our sin. Unfortunately, too many of us choose to walk right past Him, rejecting His free offer of forgiveness, and we ourselves march down the road to eternal destruction. Because He has forgiven us, does not me that He is going to impose His desire on us. We have a free choice to accept his forgiveness or reject it.

So from a Christian perspective, there is now no difference between a pious Christian and a mass-murder and rapist. Both will go to paradise because Go has paid for their sins. People should have fun and do whatever they like in this world, sinning as much as possible, because God has paid for their sins.

People who love to sin and couldn’t care less if GOD didn’t like it, are people who by their own choice are walking down the road to destruction.

What do you mena by destruction? God has paid for their sins so why will they be punished?

In Isaiah 1:18 we read, "Come, let us discuss this," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.” By identity, a born-again Christian has a clean, healthy nature. The old nature of sin, guilt, insignificance, and unimportance are gone. In our heart’s, mind, and conscience we sense freedom and purity. Yes, humanity is as sinful today as it was before. But through Jesus Christ, we can have a new life—a new nature; a new sense of identity.

So from the crucifixion of Jesus the only difference that it made is that we will no longer be blamed for what Adam did (original sin)? But we still sins and still will be punished for our sins? Seems a little pointless to me.

The purpose of the crucifixion was to pay the price for our sin. It was our atonement. When we humble ourselves and accept what GOD has done for us, and ask Him to change who we are, He does it…He simply does it. I speak from personal experience. Yes, GOD has paid the price for our sins. Yes, we can still sin. But that’s our choice. GOD is not going to force us to travel down the road of forgiveness and grace. He offers this road to each of us. If we choose to travel this road, GOD removes the load of sin we carry, at no cost to us, and we are holy in his sight and we have every right to enter the Kingdom of Heaven for eternity. Or, we can say no thanks; I can do this on my own; I’m not ready. And we continue down the path to destruction. It’s simple…it’s very simple.

Let me be more specific. What happens to a Christian who rapes and steals and tortures and murders innocent people. God paid for his sins so he is set for paradise, right?

Thanks once again for your post.

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum Bro Ansar Al-'Adl:

Jazak Allah Khair for putting those links on your last post. Excellent sites!!

Wa'alaikum salam
Hana

 

[PrIM3]

you are very religious I can see Ansar Al-'Adl.

we don't look at the trinity as an entitie but as an essence. by definition both are not the same.
I think a better example is Money: first you have the Nickle, then the Dime, then the Qouter.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Sister Hana_Aku,

Jazak Allah Khair for putting those links on your last post. Excellent sites!!

I'm glad you found them to be useful. I can certainly say that out of all the great Muslim contributions to comparative religion (and there have been numerous by many scholars and da'ees), those of Dr. Ali Ataie and Dr. Laurence Brown are truly exceptional. I highly encourage people to purchase The First and Final Commandment by Dr. Brown, whether Muslim or Non-Muslim.



Hello PrIM3,

we don't look at the trinity as an entitie but as an essence.

God is an entity. The essence of something is simply its nature or core property.

I think a better example is Money: first you have the Nickle, then the Dime, then the Qouter.

I am not sure how you plan to use this as an example of the trinity. Here we have three coins. Do you believe in three gods?

Regards

 

[M H Kahn]

The chain of prophets started with sending Adam and Eve from the heaven to the earth. Adam was the first human and first prophet and Muhammed (pbuh) was the last and Jesus(pbuh) was probably the penultimate prophet of the chain which has been closed with Muhammed (pbuh), the last prophet.

All the prophets including Jesus(pbuh) were messangers of Allah and all of them came with the same message for the whole mankind of their respective time:

* Allah is the creator and sustainer of the universe

* Humans are here on the earth to pass a transient period and then
return to Allah through death.

* Humans should never worship anything other than Allah and should
never believe that none but Allah has any power to do any good or
bad to any one. In other words, Allah is all-powerful.

* No human should associate any partner, wife, childrenetc. with
Allah either in faith or in worship.

* Every human should perform the prescribed prayers and abide by all
the other laws revealed to them through the prophets and divine
books of guidance, the last being the Quran.

* On the day of resurrection, every human will be judged if he, during
his life on the earth, believed in Allah and what He had ordained
through divine books and prophets, and acted accordingly.

* Every time Allah sent a messenger, it was obligatory for the mankind
of that time to abide by the teachings brought to them from Allah,
because Allah sent a new prophet when the people had forgotten the
teachings of the previous prophet and indulged in misdeeds.

* Every new prophet came to tell the people to be submissive to Allah in
faith and performance of the assigned duties.

* It seems that the assigned duties and sometimes the nature thereof
to be done on this earth varied from time to time.


Since Muhammed (pbuh) is the last and the seal of the prophets, all
humans now on this planet are to believe what Allah has said in the last
divine book Quran and what other teachings have been brought for the
mankind by Muhammed (pbuh).The revealtions in all the previous divine
books and teachings of the then messengers were the code of life for the
mankind of that time. But with lapse of time, previous divine books and
teachings of the then prophets have been corupted. So, all people not
following the Quran and the last prophet Muhammed (pbuh) should atone
at once and start learning and practicising Islam, the only divine code of
life for the mankind from the time of Muhammed (pbuh) to all to be born
till the day of resurrection.

 

[PrIM3]

I am not sure how you plan to use this as an example of the trinity. Here we have three coins. Do you believe in three gods?

Regards

Yes three coins but each are a form of money... of course I could use it with other coins or money but since we have 3 essence of God we have 3 coins.
so it is kind of like God 3 people but each are a form of God