MPs approve gay marriage for England and Wales

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This is a civilization that at it's core, is based on the Worship of the Self. "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". Do what ever you want to fulfill your desires, eat whatever you want, wear whatever you want, hump whatever you want. The rule was, do all that without harming or intervening in other's pursuit of their desires. But more and more, you will find that this is unattainable, for once you make desire as 'god', you will find those whose sole desire is to harm others, their pursuit of happiness is in killing and abusing children.



45_23-1.png

Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge
and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ?
Then will you not be reminded? [45:23]
 
A number of Greek city states at times officially tolerated homosexuality (eg Sparta). And many states through the centuries have tolerated homosexuality in practice, even if in theory they opposed it. This would include some societies who described themselves as Muslim.


Historically, many notable figures from all walks of life were homosexual.

Your point?

I never denied their existence, albeit minute they were in number and secret lives they lived. I said they were (rightly) never accepted in any society and, regardless of place and time (except the current), were sentenced with the death penalty because they were never considered normal human beings.


From a science point of view the debate goes on, but personally I think its likely that one day it will indeed be shown that homosexuality in many cases occurs by nature, not by nurture. At that point it will raise many moral questions about whether an individual has much choice. For instance, latest research here:
http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/13/new-insight-into-the-epigenetic-roots-of-homosexuality/

You so heavily depend on human endeavour for answers to everything. Homosexuality occurring by birth is a myth and all that has been said about it has been nothing but speculation. It's not a fact and it will never be one.
 
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WHAT! o_o
No worries, we still can be fwends right? Why do you support this proposal?

Whoa! That was supposed to be with an earlier quote. Leave it to my rancid techno skills to mess that up.

I DON'T agree with the proposal. I was saying I don't really care one way or the other. That is between these people and God, in my mind. Sickening to me, but God will handle it as He best sees fit.
 
Whoa! That was supposed to be with an earlier quote. Leave it to my rancid techno skills to mess that up.

I DON'T agree with the proposal. I was saying I don't really care one way or the other. That is between these people and God, in my mind. Sickening to me, but God will handle it as He best sees fit.

Yeah I really don't care either. I just view this world as some sort of big drama. Like America totally two timing Great Britain and China. As long as I'm not forced to do something that I dislike, I'm happy.

This approval won't really affect me.
 
Although I am very liberal in most respects, actually I do agree that it's wrong for the Church to be obliged to offer the 'sacrament of marriage', which is a strictly religious matter within their own jurisdiction. So long as homosexuals have equal rights within the state (civil union/marriage rights etc) then I agree that this measure is unnecessary and causes more problems than its worth.

I agree with this. I see the homosexual marriage debate as underscoring an even more important debate, the separation of church and state. The state should not be forcing the church to recognize anybody as entering a spiritual union, that is the church's business. And likewise the church should not be forcing the state to give or take away any special rights to any particular group of people based on church doctrine.
 
For the longest time I agreed with you guys. About homosexual sex (not homosexuality itself) being immoral, that is, and not about it needing to be outlawed. I would have told you even then that it’s none of the law’s business who marries whom, that the law is about preserving order and physical safety, not enforcing the lawmaker’s personal idea of ethics. The only people I would ever trust to do that are prophets. (Before you bring up Lot the people he was commanding “not to approach men” were already married to women. Not to mention all the robbing and murdering they were doing, which folks always somehow fail to mention.)

I was pretty firm about this and on retrospect I don’t really blame myself for it. The only two pro-gay arguments I ever commonly heard people make are pretty poor. One of them is, “Anything that doesn’t hurt anybody can’t be immoral,” which isn’t a philosophy at all and would have sounded lazily simplistic even to a flower child on Haight-Asbury. The other is, “They were born that way,” which is pure textbook fallacy of appeal to inherent nature, and the ultimate sign of how frighteningly determinism has dominated modern thought. I was born without a sense of bodily shame but that does not give me an automatic “get out of immodest behavior free” card. Some people are said to be born with elements of Antisocial Personality Disorder in them. So what of it? But I’m sure that by now we’re back on, “Anything that doesn’t hurt anybody can’t be immoral.” Desire is involuntary; action is not. And we’re defined by our actions. You see how unpersuasive people can people even when they’re right.

And so, hearing only these two pathetic arguments, and not thinking through the matter with Lot any further myself than most other Muslims do, I was as firm about homosexual behavior as most of them still are now. After all, I thought, the way the world works is that mutually exclusive pairs of complementary opposites work together to produce an effect that only they can produce together. Male and female is just one example or extension of many. Yin and yang and all that. From the way these pro-gay advocates talked you’d think that the abstract relationship was the only thing that mattered and the fact of what the people were in the first place meant nothing. I was sick of people treating the biological aspect of a biological process like it was a mere trifle when after all it’s the thing that begins life we’re talking about. But I didn’t really care about that. The only thing that I hated was being called a “homophobe”, a bigot, just for holding a contrary viewpoint, even though I had no stereotypes whatsoever about gay people themselves and simply disagreed with one single thing they did. I didn’t go around making stereotypes about all non-Muslims and call them all Islamophobes. Indeed, these guys were the bigots for automatically branding me one just for not holding to their own values. And I still, even after changing my mind on the issue, find that disgusting, and will rush to people’s aid in a hot second about it. If someone makes stereotypes about gay people or fears them, they’re a homophobe. If they merely don’t approve of the act, if they have a different opinion from your own about it and do not judge the homosexual himself or make any assumptions about him whereas you make assumptions about them and call them names just for having certain religious beliefs, you’re the one who’s prejudiced. Period. End of discussion.

Anyway, I was sitting in a restaurant one day a few months ago when an unrelated train of thought caused me to realize kind of out of nowhere that if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption. Because parentage is also a relationship based around a biological process, and yet that doesn’t mean it has to be based around a biologically viable form of it. Adoption is not the way Mother Nature intended for parentage to work and yet it does work. In fact my mother was adopted. I wouldn’t be here in the first place if not for it. How is homosexuality any different? In both cases the spiritual and psychological bond is what really matters. Deciding not to be rash I turned it over in my head for a few days and even put in on the back burner but neither my conscious nor my subconscious mind could find any holes in the logic. The biological aspect, it turned out, really was more of a trifle after all, in the very grand scheme of things.

So now I support gay marriage. Actually I always did in a legalistic sense, as I’ve said, but I’m more into the issue itself. Although I will still not countenance hearing people being called “homophobes” just because they don’t. There is too much hate in response to hate, but more importantly there is too much of an assumption of hate. Too many things need to stop. For example, look at some of the comments we’ve had. Disgusting? Gross? Society hitting rock bottom? I’m sorry, aren’t there a lot of wars and stuff you could be saying this about instead?
 
I support gay marriage.

As a Muslim, do you believe in the Qur'an? If so, Allah says in the Qur'an that committing homosexual acts is an abomination (7:80-82, 27:54-55 etc). Would you agree with what Allah's said?

Do you also agree that in Islam, marriage is only between a man and woman?

if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption.

Adoption is nurturing and bringing up a child that doesn't for whatever reason have someone to nurture them, a praiseworthy act. The Prophet :saws: adopted Zaid. Homosexuality is fulfilling a sexual desire unlawfully with someone of the same sex. Are you implying that the Prophet :saws: in adopting Zaid, committed an immorality, and did something similar to homosexuality? (we seek Allah's refuge from that).
 
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Haven't I already been over all that, Insaanah? If you failed to understand everything I said then I'm afraid I can't make myself any clearer. Sorry.
 
I didn't make my post to spark a debate. I made it as a call for everyone to cool it already. On both sides of the issue.
 
Haven't I already been over all that, Insaanah? If you failed to understand everything I said then I'm afraid I can't make myself any clearer. Sorry.

:sl:

Can you please explain your post again?

You write very eloquently and this may confuse some members. I have an idea what your saying. If you can give a small summary, I will appreciate it.
 
It's a little difficult to summarize without losing such crucial details as to ensure misunderstandings. But the important thing is that when people talk about gay marriage everybody usually comes across as equally despicable. You have people on one side talking as though if it's made legal then society will somehow...I don't know, fall into a black hole or something, and saying that the issue is a sure sign of how nobody has any values anymore. Meanwhile where are their complaints about genuine atrocities like North Korea's vague threats of bringing nuclear winter on two or three different countries? And on the other side you have people practicing bigotry by calling everyone with certain religious views a bigot, just for not being exactly like themselves, even if they're not making any stereotypes about gay people at all and simply holding different values. Prejudiced because they're assuming people are prejudiced. They're hypocrites. There are hardly any good guys here. That's what I'm saying. There's nothing else I'm willing to talk about right now. I've said it all already and don't want to argue about it. I've done too much arguing lately.
 
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Haven't I already been over all that, Insaanah? If you failed to understand everything I said then I'm afraid I can't make myself any clearer. Sorry.

I've re-read your post, and it doesn't address my questions. I'm not talking about bigotry or name calling or any of that.

I want to know, how you reconcile your belief in the Qur'an and your belief in Allah's telling us that homosexual acts are an abomination/immorality/lewdness/indecency (depending on which translation you use), with your support for such acts via gay marriage or gay unions. I don't understand how one can give support to what Allah has spoken against in such clear terms.

Your post also didn't address my second question, about your comparison of adoption being an immorality of the same level as homosexuality.

if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption

Adoption is nurturing and bringing up a child that doesn't for whatever reason have someone to nurture them, a praiseworthy act. The Prophet :saws: adopted Zaid. Homosexuality is fulfilling a sexual desire unlawfully with someone of the same sex. Are you implying that the Prophet :saws: in adopting Zaid, committed an immorality, and did something similar to homosexuality? (we seek Allah's refuge from that).
 
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So? For the vast majority of that period since Plato those same ancestors thought slavery was a good idea. Unless they were slaves, obviously. Fortunately we are not stuck in the past, and the attitudes of the past are today are regarded as unacceptable as often as not. Humanity is growing up. Just because our ancestors hated is no reason we should continue to hate. Hate always has been, and always will be, the biggest enemy of our species and a 'moral' code that teaches its preservation has little to recommend it, and no ultimate future.

Slavery was the result of war. Homosexuality was and still is a choice that has nothing to do with external forces beyond one's control. No one nation was ever forced to become homosexual as a result of war.

Humanity is only growing up as far as technological advancement is concerned because today an individual is only recognised and appraised by his business achievements. A lack of appreciation for integrity, principles and values leaves humanity more deteriorated than ever before. Unfortunately strong traits are now a thing of the past, a virtue that today's world is alien to.
 
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Maybe you need to read it a third time, Insaanah. But again, I'm not doing to debate you anyway. It seems all I've done lately at these places is argue with people.
 
Anyway, I was sitting in a restaurant one day a few months ago when an unrelated train of thought caused me to realize kind of out of nowhere that if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption. Because parentage is also a relationship based around a biological process, and yet that doesn’t mean it has to be based around a biologically viable form of it. Adoption is not the way Mother Nature intended for parentage to work and yet it does work. In fact my mother was adopted. I wouldn’t be here in the first place if not for it. How is homosexuality any different? In both cases the spiritual and psychological bond is what really matters. Deciding not to be rash I turned it over in my head for a few days and even put in on the back burner but neither my conscious nor my subconscious mind could find any holes in the logic. The biological aspect, it turned out, really was more of a trifle after all, in the very grand scheme of things.

So now I support gay marriage. Actually I always did in a legalistic sense, as I’ve said, but I’m more into the issue itself. Although I will still not countenance hearing people being called “homophobes” just because they don’t. There is too much hate in response to hate, but more importantly there is too much of an assumption of hate. Too many things need to stop. For example, look at some of the comments we’ve had. Disgusting? Gross? Society hitting rock bottom? I’m sorry, aren’t there a lot of wars and stuff you could be saying this about instead?

So your basis for all this is 'biological processes', or the lack of it? You are one seriously confused individual.

Adoption is the process of bringing a person (or thing, affair, matter etc) into a specific relationship like taking another's child as one's own child. This process includes a person assuming the responsibilities that a biological parent would normally be expected to take, but for whatever reason this responsibility is passed on to another. Due to the absense of the biological parent, another assumes the responsibility of nurturing and upbringing but not replacing actual biological parents. In fact, that's impossible. Your biological mother will always be your biological mother even if another person assumes this role. And this would only happen in exceptional circumstances.

Homosexuality on the other hand is sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex.

How on earth can you claim that the two are related and can be used as evidence to support one another?!
 
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These are not inquiries you guys are bringing up, they're invitations to go into a nine-page long argument with you. Whatever your intentions that will still be the end result. It always is. I've been doing too much of that lately and I quit. I have fibromyalgia. It was an accident that I ended up back on this board in the first place.
 
My advice is not to jump to conclusions so hastily. Keep on pondering and thinking because you're bound (probably) to see the falseness of your own conclusions.
 
It's just Islam states homosexuals cannot engage in any sexual relations. That is what it boils down to

Does it say that nobody can engage in such acts, or that Muslims cannot engage in such acts?
 
I never denied their existence, albeit minute they were in number and secret lives they lived. I said they were (rightly) never accepted in any society and, regardless of place and time (except the current), were sentenced with the death penalty because they were never considered normal human beings.

So people should have their humanity stripped because of their sexuality? Are you being serious?


It's just Islam states homosexuals cannot engage in any sexual relations. That is what it boils down to.

Good thing this has nothing to do with Islamic states and Muslims being forced to engage in sexual relations.
 
Does it say that nobody can engage in such acts, or that Muslims cannot engage in such acts?

If you read my response again (copy and pasted it below), I said to ignore that statement. That statement was going to be a response to another post but I accidentally directed it at you. Just ignore that.

It's just Islam states homosexuals cannot engage in any sexual relations. That is what it boils down to

^ Sorry ignore that part.

I think it will have an impact. Like homosexual couples will be more accepted than before. For example, it won't be unusual to have two dads. I don't think I said anything about fear
.
 

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