Can God Become A Man??

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I'm wondering if I ought to read a commentary at the same time. There's a lot that's hard to understand.

If you did that it would be best. It would help you far more. Yusuf Ali has his own commentary, if you want to get that as well.

Here are some online links to his commentary;

Abdullah Yusuf Ali
Download Translation & Commentary
Pdf 9.6 mb

http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsiraya/Index.htm - This site is useful if you want to quickly find the commentary for specific verses.
 
Christians honestly see that they believe in One God, but in three 'Persons'. Their basic concept or understanding of God can be reflected in the Biblical passage, "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” " Matthew 3:16-17 Muslims do not see these verses or the Nicene Creed as a statements of Divine unity.

The Nicene Creed starts with, "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible." Muslims would fully agree that Christians believe in One God if they stopped there; however, this statement of unity is immediately negated with, "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end." There are 20 words of the Nicene Creed allocated to the Father and 128 to Jesus which clearly reflects the Christian focus on Jesus in their worship. There is no Muslim who can disagree with the essence of the first statement except for the use of the word 'father' which implies having offspring. Likewise, there is no Muslim who will accept the second statement as they see it as ascribing partners (a human being, Jesus) with the One God (Allah, glorified and exalted is He).

Perhaps the single most quoted verse in the entirety of the Bible is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." The word 'begotten' is defined as "(of offspring) generated by procreation; to procreate as the father". The word procreate is defined as "to beget and conceive (offspring), to produce or create; originate, to beget or bring forth (offspring)". Since we know that the Father did not physically sire or beget Jesus (astaghfir Allah), what does 'begotten' mean? A simplistic meaning for 'begotten' implies a beginning for a descendant (son or daughter) that began through the actions of a male parent (father). The word 'conceive' is the passive flip-side of this coin that is applied to the mother as indicated by the definition, "to become pregnant with (offspring)". Since we know that the Father did not physically beget Jesus in the normal human means, then the word begotten can be understood figuratively in the sense of "to produce or create; originate" for the term "begotten" which further sheds light on the title "SON OF GOD" as metaphorical, symbolic, or figurative. Can not this same figurative meaning be applied to Adam, which the Qur'an references with, "Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam? He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was." 3:59?

My understanding is that Allah's (swt) existence is unlike our existence. Our existence is defined by the miniscule space occupied by our bodies and by the infinitesimally small amount of time between our conception and our death. My understanding is that Allah (swt) is not bound by our human limitations of the space-time continuum. We do not perceive Allah (swt) as occupying one portion of space over here while not occupying another portion over there, but neither do we say that Allah (swt) physically exists everywhere and in everything at the same time (astaghfir Allah). The same can be said for any point in time from before the moment of creation until after its destruction.

Allah's (swt) existence is the only true reality which brings us to the question of what does it mean to be a man? What is the nature or central essence of our existence? We have a physical body that contains a few trillion cells each with 46 chromosomes that are all the same, but are unique to each individual (except identical twins). Am I really only that Caucasian male body, or am I more than my body? We go through stages of development and decline, but are we defined by any single moment between our birth and death? Do we cease to exist with our death? I have a certain ability to think and understand through the activity of my brain, but does that define who I am along the lines of, "I think, therefore I am"? When my brain ceases to function, do I then cease to exist? I have a certain will to act and to move my body a certain way or think about the solution to some problem. Is that capability or will to act and think define who I am, or is it the choices I make along the way? I have certain beliefs about the unseen, but are those beliefs what defines who I am? I could go on and on with asking the question of "Who am I?" with no clear answer other than an accumulation of choices, actions and intentions made be some essence (the soul) that exists within my body between my conception and death. If, in a sense, my essential existence is a mystery to me, then how much more so the existence of Allah who is beyond the limitation of occupying a human body (astaghfir Allah)?

If there is an intangible aspect of my being (soul) that defines who I am, then was that essential 'human' essence lacking in Jesus and replaced with a 'God' essence, or did the human essence coexist with the God essence inside Jesus' body? If the human essence coexisted with the God essence, then which one was dominant and took precedence? Matthew 26:38-39 should shed light on this, "Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with me.” He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” This shows to me that Jesus had a human soul and that his central essence was different and distinct from that of the Father; therefore, Jesus was fully man and in no way, shape or form was he 'God Incarnate.'

Muslims believe that Jesus was born miraculously to the virgin, Mary, without any human father; however, we reject the notion that Jesus was the 'only begotten Son of God' and at the same time literally God Incarnate. We do not believe that it behooves the majesty and glory of God for Him to become embodied inside one of His creatures or for Him to become fragmented into three persons with one coming up from being baptized, another descending in the form of a dove and a third speaking from Heaven of the first as His son. We believe that Jesus was a blessed Prophet, Messenger and Servant of Allah in the same manner that Moses, David, and Muhammad were (peace be upon them). May Allah (swt) remove the confusion from our minds so that we worship Him alone without ascribing any partners with Him. I write from my own limited understanding and I ask God to forgive me for any errors I may have made.
 
I write from my own limited understanding and I ask God to forgive me for any errors I may have made.

May I ask some hypothetical questions. Suppose that God really did become a man,
while at the same time remaining God in heaven. For a moment put aside what the
Quran and Bible teaches and see what ideas you come up with.

What would this man be like? What would he do and teach? Why would God really
want to come down to our level of existence? Would he go to a certain country or
would he visit all nations? If he allowed himself to be killed knowing he would rise
again, why would he go through this?

Thanks,
Jim
 
May I ask some hypothetical questions. Suppose that God really did become a man,
while at the same time remaining God in heaven. For a moment put aside what the
Quran and Bible teaches and see what ideas you come up with.

What would this man be like? What would he do and teach? Why would God really
want to come down to our level of existence? Would he go to a certain country or
would he visit all nations? If he allowed himself to be killed knowing he would rise
again, why would he go through this?

Thanks,
Jim

The question is an absurd question because it wants you to accept that the Creator is also a creation both at the same time. That the All Powerful is also not All Powerful at the same time etc. This is plain absurdity, like telling someone to draw a shape which is both a square and not a square.
 
May I ask some hypothetical questions. Suppose that God really did become a man,
while at the same time remaining God in heaven.
I have put forth a quite lengthy explanation why I believe that God did not in any way, shape or form become man. As Brother Hulk explain, for me to imagine the impossible is an absurdity. Why don't you take portions of what I wrote that disagrees with your concept of God and try to explain your position so I can better understand the Christian perspective? Take for instance, the part about Jesus having a core human essence and whether the essence of God dwelt alongside Jesus' human soul or not. If both coexisted within Jesus' body, then the human one must have taken precedence as Jesus stated "not as I will, but as You will." Jesus clearly and emphatically submitted his will to that of God as an obedient servant which is consistent with Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus..." Therefore Jesus was the servant of the God of Abraham.
 
Muslims believe that Jesus was born miraculously to the virgin, Mary, without any human father
In Islam, is Jesus the only Messenger with a miraculous birth? And is he also the only one with a miraculous death event (ie another dying in his place on the cross)? If so, does that affect the way he is regarded? Does it make him more special in any way?

What happened to Jesus after the crucifixion?
 
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As far as I understand the teachings of mainstream Islam say that Jesus was not crucified, but that somebody else died in his place.
I've read about this. I am wondering if the miraculous birth/death are unique to Jesus and also if we are told what happened after the substitute crucifixion.
 
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Here is an article about the view according to Shī‘ī Ismā‘īlī Islam:
Actually this article does look interesting but the links don't work very well for me - all the quotes don't display.
 
Sorry, I'm not sure what to do about that. It works for me.
 
In Islam, is Jesus the only Messenger with a miraculous birth?
Yes and no, Jesus (as) was the only human born to a woman without a male parent, but Adam (as) was also miraculously created. "Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was." Quran 3:59.
And is he also the only one with a miraculous death event (ie another dying in his place on the cross)?
This view is accepted by some Muslims including the translators for the widely accepted Mohsin Khan translation of the Qur'an into English (as indicated by an interjected comment); however, I do not know of a hadith on which it is based. This view is documented in the Gospel of Barnabas, but this book is not accepted by anyone that I am aware of as entirely authentic. For myself, I do not have a belief about the how of Jesus' last days on earth except that it is reflected by the ambiguity of the Abdel Haleem translation of Qur'an 4:157-158 "and (the Jews) said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him—God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise."

With that said your premise of Jesus having a "miraculous death event" is rejected. I believe that both Jesus and Muhammad ascended to Heaven without dying, but Muhammad returned immediately after receiving instructions for prayer. I believe that Jesus will return during the Last Days to kill the Dajjal and establish Islamic rule on earth before he dies a human death.
If so, does that affect the way he is regarded? Does it make him more special in any way?
Yes, Jesus is among the most honored of prophets along with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad. Jesus is clearly indicated as being "special" by his miraculous birth, his ascension to Heaven, and his prophesied return to earth at the Last Days.
What happened to Jesus after the crucifixion?
From above, "they certainly did not kill him—God raised him up to Himself"..
 
Here is an article about the view according to Shī‘ī Ismā‘īlī Islam:

While it is true that most Qur’ānic commentators came to deny the crucifixion of Jesus, this view is not actually rooted in the Qur’ānic verses but comes from commentaries which rely on non-Qur’ānic sources. The denial of the historical crucifixion was only one view among others on the subject to emerge from the Islamic world. There have been alternate interpretations of the same Qur’ānic verses which collectively offer a range of perspectives on the crucifixion – from total denial to actually asserting that the crucifixion did take place historically.
This statement is patently false. I have 9 different translations of the Qur'an and every single ones says basically that "they killed him not nor crucified him". This is not to deny that some translations may exist that mistranslates the Arabic into whatever doctrine the translator wants to falsely portray as being Qur'anic. For example the Islamophobe Usama Dakdo has his own translation that he uses to twist the Qur'an to his own agenda. The Shī‘ī Ismā‘īlī most definitely don't represent mainstream Muslims.
 
Thank you for your reply. It's very strange and interesting for me to read about the same figure (Jesus) in parallel in two faiths, although I'm sure this is natural for you by now.

With that said your premise of Jesus having a "miraculous death event" is rejected
I wasn't trying to make a point - couldn't think how else to refer to it so I used the word 'event'.
 
They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them
If I read this sentence alone, then as a Christian I would agree.
They did not kill Jesus. Death was unable to defeat him as he rose from the dead. That's the whole point of the Easter story.

To all who were watching it was apparent that Jesus had died ... but on the third day they were proved wrong. "He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay."

So by this interpretation of the Qu'ranic verse it does not seem to contradict my Christian thinking at all ...
 

If I read this sentence alone, then as a Christian I would agree.
They did not kill Jesus. Death was unable to defeat him as he rose from the dead. That's the whole point of the Easter story.

To all who were watching it was apparent that Jesus had died ... but on the third day they were proved wrong. "He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay."

So by this interpretation of the Qu'ranic verse it does not seem to contradict my Christian thinking at all ...

You don't think Jesus (PBUH) died on the cross?
 
You don't think Jesus (PBUH) died on the cross?
As a Christian I believe that Jesus overcame death and rose to life again.
They did indeed not manage to kill him (if that makes sense).
 
I'm not completely sure what glo means but the Christian understanding has always been that Jesus did die; as in his heart stopped beating, and his soul separated from his body; but that he did not stay dead. Because of who he was and what he had done, death could not hold him down and therefore resurrected back to life again. I think that might be what glo is trying to say but I really am not completely sure.
 
In Islam, is Jesus the only Messenger with a miraculous birth?

Most certainly not. He wasn't even the only one at the time. John was conceived of a completely barren woman.

And is he also the only one with a miraculous death event (ie another dying in his place on the cross)?

No. Whatever the meaning of "they did not kill him, neither did they crucify him, but rather it [only] appeared so to them" may or may not be he is not the only one with a "miraculous death event". Idris's own ascension to heaven springs to mind. This is, in fact, part of the reason why the latter is generally identified with Enoch.

If so, does that affect the way he is regarded? Does it make him more special in any way?

To the degree that Jesus is "special", whatever that even means (we are not supposed to favor one prophet over another), it's more because of his eschatological role. There are many prophets but only one Messiah.

What happened to Jesus after the crucifixion?

He ascended alive, as I've said.
 
The birth of Prophet John is miraculous because he is the offspring of a barren mother and an elderly father. His father, it should be noted, was also a Prophet named Zecheriah.
"'Zecheriah, We bring you the good news of the birth of a son whose name shall be John, one whose namesake We never created before.' He said: ‘My Lord! How can I have a boy when my wife is barren and I have reached an extremely old age?' He answered: ‘So shall it be.' Your Lord says: ‘It is easy for Me', and then added: ‘For beyond doubt, I created you earlier when you were nothing' (Quran 19:7-9).
"Zecheriah exclaimed: ‘My Lord! How shall I have a son when old age has overtaken me and my wife is barren?' He said: ‘Thus shall it be; Allah does what He wills'"(Quran 3:40).



So John had a father in the muslim version too
 
Most certainly not. He wasn't even the only one at the time. John was conceived of a completely barren woman.
You are right from the perspective of an apparent infertile couple having offspring as also was the case with Abraham and Sarah.
Idris's own ascension to heaven springs to mind. This is, in fact, part of the reason why the latter is generally identified with Enoch.
Do you have a specific ayat or hadith that supports your claim about Idris?
 

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