Turkey protesters hold Istanbul square after days of violent clashes

[جوري]

This is what I feel is strongest about the secular system - if we don't like a law, we can argue for it to be changed and indeed can change it!

Actually it doesn't change it all. You just have the illusion that your voice matters when in fact it doesn't matter!

best,

 

[GuestFellow]

Actually it doesn't change it all. You just have the illusion that your voice matters when in fact it doesn't matter!

best,

That's so true.

 

[observer]

Actually it doesn't change it all. You just have the illusion that your voice matters when in fact it doesn't matter!

best,

Maybe in the short term, but long term we can. In Britain think women's votes, death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality - all done because of popular campaigns. You're never going to change laws overnight.

 

[جوري]

Maybe in the short term, but long term we can. In Britain think women's votes, death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality - all done because of popular campaigns. You're never going to change laws overnight.

No, moral degeneracy is the natural course of secular societies of course all you need are lobbies of homos and voila. It isn't because of women voting and btw women in Islam could vote since its inception. Their voices were only taken away by traditional societies where the laws are those of whimsey than reason.. not unlike the secularist societies of today whose moral compass sways to who's dishing out the dollars.

best,

 

[observer]

No, moral degeneracy is the natural course of secular societies of course all you need are lobbies of homos and voila.

And that's the end of the thread for me. Ridiculous.

 

[جوري]

Yeah, talk about ridiculous:

One often wonders if those toting & drumming such 'freedoms' can keep a straight face!

best,

 

[GuestFellow]

Maybe in the short term, but long term we can. In Britain think women's votes, death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality - all done because of popular campaigns. You're never going to change laws overnight.

Yes that is the problem with the British system. Laws in the long-term can change in accordance with whatever people want regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

 

[faithandpeace]

Assalamu alaikum. I'm not an expert with what is going on right now in Turkey but it doesn't sound good. It is bad enough for external forces to be trying to destroy Islam and it is another thing when people are trying to collapse it from within. I have had more than my share of "Muslims" who seem to be opposed to anything and everything Islamic (i.e. hijab, Sharia, not drinking alcohol, etc.). It sounds like these protestors want a watered-down secularized Westernized capitalist version of Islam. If people want diet Islam or Islam-lite accompanied with secular Western values that are unIslamic then that is up to them but they cease to be Muslims upon doing so. Islam is not a pick and choose religion. It is pretty sad when a Muslim-majority country wants the "freedom" to drink alcohol but opposes the freedom for women to wear hijab. That is not Islam. That is Shaytan. :raging:

 

[Independent]

If people want diet Islam or Islam-lite accompanied with secular Western values that are unIslamic then that is up to them but they cease to be Muslims upon doing so.

It would seem that many of them do indeed want 'Islam-lite'. Therefore, the logic of your post is that we should no longer look on Turkey as a 98% Muslim country. Half the Muslims aren't Muslim enough.

In which case, Erdogan no longer has a sufficient constituency to introduce full sharia law etc. Sharia law should only be introduced where there is genuine mass consent or else it becomes an act of repression.

The issue with Erdogan is not just individual measures like alcohol restrictions, but his general trend towards authoritarianism. He wants to set himself up as a new kind of President with power to over-rule just about any other institution. Even if you like Erdogan, what about who follows him? Once you give total power to one man it's very hard to take it away again without a revolution.

 

[جوري]

What do you know of Sharia law to qualify it as an act of 'repression'?

 

[جوري]

The protesters of Zucotti park were taken seriously- they really managed to change repressive American policies!!
We all know the game being played with Turkey and why exactly. They've already sent Zionists the likes of George Soros on him as was done before with the attempt at an Islamic economic market of Malaysia- and Yeah Israel had to issue that apology and he has an economy that's the envy of many of his European counterparts. Of course they'll come with their BS and speeches. Well frankly he was democratically elected and there is a parliament and he in fact made no changes that aren't the norm in Europe. So enough BS, enough of it the world has had enough and it is uprising and the counter revolts as fostered by these devils have no aims or momentum so good luck there!

 

[Independent]

What do you know of Sharia law to qualify it as an act of 'repression'?

For non Muslims it's repressive, it's ok for Muslims.

 

[جوري]

For non Muslims it's repressive, it's ok for Muslims.

I didn't ask your opinion, I asked you what it is? Scholarship isn't cheap. Try it.. I am expecting a nice thesis with the fixins'

best,

 

[Independent]

he was democratically elected and there is a parliament and he in fact made no changes that aren't the norm in Europe.

Yes he was and indeed he was/is still looked on favourably in the west. However, what he now proposes is to circumvent the democratic limitations on his personal power. He wants to make the presidency all-powerful so that he himself can step neatly into the role. It's exactly what Putin did.

 

[جوري]

Yes he was and indeed he was/is still looked on favourably in the west. However, what he now proposes is to circumvent the democratic limitations on his personal power. He wants to make the presidency all-powerful so that he himself can step neatly into the role. It's exactly what Putin did.

I have already summed up the real troubles with him and all of a sudden here:

The protesters of Zucotti park were taken seriously- they really managed to change repressive American policies!!
We all know the game being played with Turkey and why exactly. They've already sent Zionists the likes of George Soros on him as was done before with the attempt at an Islamic economic market of Malaysia- and Yeah Israel had to issue that apology and he has an economy that's the envy of many of his European counterparts. Of course they'll come with their BS and speeches. Well frankly he was democratically elected and there is a parliament and he in fact made no changes that aren't the norm in Europe. So enough BS, enough of it the world has had enough and it is uprising and the counter revolts as fostered by these devils have no aims or momentum so good luck there!

best,

 

[جوري]

so civilized, so western.. that's what the minority of pigs are fighting for & wish to impose it on the majority:

[video=youtube;k7OKJEF03Dg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k7OKJEF03Dg#![/video]

 

[Futuwwa]

The issue with Erdogan is not just individual measures like alcohol restrictions, but his general trend towards authoritarianism. He wants to set himself up as a new kind of President with power to over-rule just about any other institution. Even if you like Erdogan, what about who follows him? Once you give total power to one man it's very hard to take it away again without a revolution.

Please don't jump on the bandwagon and assume that because the protestors say so, it must be true.

Turkey today is far less authoritarian than it was before AKP came into power. Then, civil rights were practically nonexistent and the state always right in any conflict between a citizen and a public institution. Civil rights have improved under AKP rule, not been rolled back.

The only power Erdogan has transferred to himself is power he has taken away from unelected generals and bureaucrats, and given to the elected government of Turkey.

 

[جوري]

The only power Erdogan has transferred to himself is power he has taken away from unelected generals and bureaucrats

In fact they'd to give up that to get into the EU.

 

[Independent]

Turkey today is far less authoritarian than it was before AKP came into power. Then, civil rights were practically nonexistent and the state always right in any conflict between a citizen and a public institution. Civil rights have improved under AKP rule, not been rolled back.

The protests in Turkey have been very surprising because there are many very obvious positive things about Erdogan and the current government. You could look at his record both ways. In the first phase of his rule you could praise him for increasing the ability of the democratically elected government to overcome entrenched interests (as well as a successful economic record).

However, if you look ahead at what he is planning it's hard not to question him. He is not allowed to stand as Prime Minister for a third term. To get round that, he is trying to hugely increase the powers of the presidency (which is currently mostly symbolic). Then, lo and behold, he can become president himself and continue to rule. (Just as Putin did.)

It's really hard not to see this as the action of a man who loves personal power too much to give it up. Even if his rule is positive and successful, you have to ask questions. Because once the power is centralised in the hands of one man, that's the way it tends to stay.

The riots are surprising because they started over something seemingly so small. But the issue is symbolic of the way Erdogan has changed. He has handled the protest very badly and enflamed the situation unnecessarily. Power corrupts everyone eventually, and I wonder if it is not starting to affect Erdogan.

 

[جوري]

If anyone has any doubt that the whole Turkish protest is any other than a western ploy to down with anything remotely Islamic that's successful, then let them compare contrast this with the Greek protests where the govt. Actually killed protesters and used illegal weapons against them or the one in Spain, recent memory, recent times. In fact Turkey is to be envied by those countries.
If you've a keen discerning eye and an understanding of history then you'll be able to cut through the crap and the BSers dispensing with it just as easily!