For all non-muslims in this site

[ardianto]

What makes you so sure that you understand Islam better than others? Would you be able to accept the idea that you're wrong and that it is not you but me who has greater understanding?

I didn't say I understand Islam better than other Muslims, I just said that I understand Islam better than those who have attitude "I'm better than thou". It's sound like arrogancy, I know. But my purpose was to inform that we should not easy to be deceived by some people who act like they are the best Muslims. I know how people like them are.
Just for information. Muslims who understand Islam will not have attitude "I'm better than thou".

Are you not then placing yourself above those who learned Islam through indoctrination?

I did not place myself above them, but I dropped them down to the place where they must stand. They are not higher than other Muslims like their assumption. One negative effect of teaching Islam through indoctrination is create Muslims who feel that they are the only right Muslims while other Muslims are wrong. It has become concern of Muslim activists.

In other words you are saying that people should come to you to learn about Islam because you're the only one who teaches the right religion, unlike others who have got it all wrong...?

I forgot to mention that what I mean with my place is Indonesia, not just my majlis. I just wanted to say that you should not generalize all Muslims are arrogant. There are many kind and friendly Muslims in my place.

I said that I sometimes feel as though the Christian community is better compared to the Muslim. And this is only because there are some Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus in the right spirit.

My closest Christian relative is an activists in his Protestant church. My closest Christian friend is a Catholic guy who active in church too. I studied in Catholic elementary school, and I will never forget about love and attention that given by my teachers there. They didn't get married and lived in dormitory. Few times in every month they visited my home. They walked on their feet because they didn't have any vehicle. They are good Christian people.

I understand if sometime you feel Christian community is better than Muslim community. It's because you compare good Christians with bad Muslims. But I have meet many good Muslims who always respect other people regardless of their belief. Also I have meet a number of bad Christian who very far from their faith.

Do not generalize.

 

[Icy Maiden]

[MOUSE][/MOUSE]

I understand if sometime you feel Christian community is better than Muslim community. It's because you compare good Christians with bad Muslims. But I have meet many good Muslims who always respect other people regardless of their belief. Also I have meet a number of bad Christian who very far from their faith.

Do not generalize.

What do you mean by good Muslim and good Christian? How do you know who is good?

 

[Icy Maiden]

I understand if sometime you feel Christian community is better than Muslim community. It's because you compare good Christians with bad Muslims. But I have meet many good Muslims who always respect other people regardless of their belief. Also I have meet a number of bad Christian who very far from their faith.

Do not generalize.

Also how do you know who is bad Muslim or bad Christian? How do you know who is far from or near to their faith?

 

[sister herb]

Maybe he just meant they manners towards of other people... :rollseyes

 

[ardianto]

What do you mean by good Muslim and good Christian? How do you know who is good?

Also how do you know who is bad Muslim or bad Christian? How do you know who is far from or near to their faith?

There are few indicator such as obedience to God, good deed, good attitude toward other people, etc. I measure someone is good or bad from his behavior, not from what he say about himself.

 

[Icy Maiden]

There are few indicator such as obedience to God, good deed, good attitude toward other people, etc. I measure someone is good or bad from his behavior, not from what he say about himself.

So if I pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran etc you would adjudge me to be a good Muslim. But if I don't I'm a bad Muslim?

 

[Hulk]

So if I pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran etc you would adjudge me to be a good Muslim. But if I don't I'm a bad Muslim?

If one outwardly carries out all obligatory duties of a muslim and more, then certainly that person would be considered a good muslim by others, whether the person's intention is proper or not we do not know. But indeed how a person is outwardly can be a reflection of what is within. We are not "judging" as though we are from a higher status but merely evaluating from what is the outward.

 

[ardianto]

So if I pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran etc you would adjudge me to be a good Muslim. But if I don't I'm a bad Muslim?

If you pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran, but you have bad attitude and bad behavior such as arrogant, look down on other people, love to gossip and backbiting, you are not good Muslim.

If you have good behavior and good attitude toward other people, but you often miss salah, miss fasting, never read Qur'an, etc, you are not a good Muslim too.

 

[Icy Maiden]

If you pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran, but you have bad attitude and bad behavior such as arrogant, look down on other people, love to gossip and backbiting, you are not good Muslim.

Agreed.

If you have good behavior and good attitude toward other people, but you often miss salah, miss fasting, never read Qur'an, etc, you are not a good Muslim too.

Don't agree. Only Allah can judge this. He can forgive everything except bad behavior (arrogant attitude) towards others.

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

How do we know that Allah can´t forgive also bad behavior against others if he can forgives missing salah etc? You are right, we need to leave judging to Allah only, not generalize others neither judge them. Must better start to think how we behave by ourselves, not how others behave.

 

[Icy Maiden]

Salam alaykum

How do we know that Allah can´t forgive also bad behavior against others if he can forgives missing salah etc? You are right, we need to leave judging to Allah only, not generalize others neither judge them. Must better start to think how we behave by ourselves, not how others behave.

Yes, thank you sister for your observation. We cannot judge who is good or bad. That is Allah's job.

 

[Icy Maiden]

If one outwardly carries out all obligatory duties of a muslim and more, then certainly that person would be considered a good muslim by others, whether the person's intention is proper or not we do not know. But indeed how a person is outwardly can be a reflection of what is within. We are not "judging" as though we are from a higher status but merely evaluating from what is the outward.

Well if actions are judged by intentions then nobody has any business to judge whether a person is a good Muslim or not.

Besides, there's a saying appearances are deceptive.

 

[hojuruku]

The Holy Qur'an would classify me as the unlearned. It takes time to become a good Muslim and change ones ways. I'm too busy fighting evil and trying to stay alive as a refugee from Australia. I've seen corruption, and I"ve been accused of Australia's rarest crime (60c NSW Crimes Act). I've learn't that in this world there is true evil so one realizes their is Allah. That's why I classified my religion as Agnostic.

I have much work to do.

 

[ardianto]

Yes, thank you sister for your observation. We cannot judge who is good or bad. That is Allah's job.

I never judge anyone. I did not say bad person will always bad or good person will always good, like some people who like to judge the others.

If I say someone is walking on the wrong path, it's just a reminder to make him realize and back to the right path. I always believe that everyone can changed, the bad can turn into the good, the good can change into the bad.

I cannot claim that I'm a good Muslim now, although I always grateful that now I'm better than in the past when I was a drug user and marijuana smoker.

I could leave the dark hole because I lived among people who always remind me when I did something wrong.

There is difference between judging and remind. Try to understand the difference between these two things.

 

[Icy Maiden]

I never judge anyone. I did not say bad person will always bad or good person will always good, like some people who like to judge the others.

Your following words sound like you are passing a judgment though...

If you pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran, but you have bad attitude and bad behavior such as arrogant, look down on other people, love to gossip and backbiting, you are not good Muslim.

If you have good behavior and good attitude toward other people, but you often miss salah, miss fasting, never read Qur'an, etc, you are not a good Muslim too.

But I thank you for bringing out the point that a person who is bad may not always be bad and a person who is good may not always be good. All the more reason why we cannot ever think or say about anyone that "He or she is a good Muslim" or that "He or she is a bad Muslim."

I don't say people are bad Muslims but I do say I have a problem with their behaviour. I find most of them arrogant. +o( They act as though they are the ones going to heaven and everybody else who doesn't follow their way is going to hell. If this is what Islam has taught them to be like then I don't know if I have made the right choice of religion. ^o)

 

[MustafaMc]

They act as though they are the ones going to heaven and everybody else who doesn't follow their way is going to hell. If this is what Islam has taught them to be like then I don't know if I have made the right choice of religion.

I don't believe it is good to get hung up on who is going to Heaven and who is not, or even on those who believe they are the only ones going to Heaven. Muslims should all hold out hope that Allah (swt) will have mercy on them while doing there best to follow the Qur'an and sunnah realizing that no one can by their deeds alone earn their way into Heaven. We should strive to purify our hearts and intentions and to live a life of struggle against evil and of being merciful to others. Allah (swt) alone has the right to judge people and we have no authority to question His decisions on Judgement Day. With that said I don't think we should consider those outside of Islam as likely to be saved from the Hellfire while realizing that Allah's (swt) mercy is immense and He may yet guide those we consider astray and those we consider to be on the Straight Way may go astray before their death.

To question one's religion on the basis of behavior and attitudes of others who claim to adhere to the same religion seems to be demonstrating a lack of faith in Allah (swt) and His messenger, Muhammad (saaws). I see that it is preferable to make a decision to worship Allah (swt) in the manner He has prescribed regardless of what other people do and say, even in the name of Islam.

 

[ardianto]

Your following words sound like you are passing a judgment though...

But I thank you for bringing out the point that a person who is bad may not always be bad and a person who is good may not always be good. All the more reason why we cannot ever think or say about anyone that "He or she is a good Muslim" or that "He or she is a bad Muslim."

If someone had bad behavior I could not say he has good behavior. But like I've said, there's difference between judging and remind, and we must able to distinguish it.

I give example of judging and remind.

#1 "You will not get a friend because you are arrogant"
#2 "You will not get a friend if you still arrogant"

Can you distinguish which judging which remind?

I don't say people are bad Muslims but I do say I have a problem with their behaviour. I find most of them arrogant. +o( They act as though they are the ones going to heaven and everybody else who doesn't follow their way is going to hell. If this is what Islam has taught them to be like then I don't know if I have made the right choice of religion. ^o)

As a Muslim I believe that Islam is the only right path, while other religions are wrong. Does it makes me become arrogant person?. My Christian relatives and friends believe that Christianity is the only right path, while other religions, including Islam, are wrong. But I don't think they are arrogant because they respect my choice to always live in Islam, just like I respect their choice to always live in their religion.

Concept of religious tolerance is respect the difference. Different than concept of religious pluralism that believe that every religion is right.

I do not follow religious pluralism because if I believe every religion is right, must be I have moved from one religion into other religion, to other religion, to other religion.

Every religion must be teach its believer that this religion is the only right way to heaven. You can confirm it to people from every religion.

I do dawah too. I tell about Islam to non-Muslims. Not only in IB but also in the real world. But I never force any non-Muslim to embrace Islam because there is no compulsion to become Muslim. If a non-Muslim interested to embrace Islam, In Shaa Allah, I will help. If not?, it's okay. But I hope he/she understand that Islam is not a cruel religion like shown in the propaganda from anti-Islam people.

Back to your statement that most of Muslims are arrogant. Like I've ever said, you can come to my country and see the reality that there are many Muslims who can respect other religions. Do not say "Most of Muslims are .... " if you ever meet only few of them.

 

[Icy Maiden]

To question one's religion on the basis of behavior and attitudes of others who claim to adhere to the same religion seems to be demonstrating a lack of faith in Allah (swt) and His messenger, Muhammad (saaws). I see that it is preferable to make a decision to worship Allah (swt) in the manner He has prescribed regardless of what other people do and say, even in the name of Islam.

You are right. It is a demonstration of lack of faith. I have absolutely no faith in the way of life of the Muslims today. This makes me a non-Muslim.

But I do believe in one God and in Prophet Muhammad sws. This makes me a Muslim.

So what am I? A Muslim or non-Muslim? ^o)

 

[Icy Maiden]

As a Muslim I believe that Islam is the only right path, while other religions are wrong.

There's a problem with this for Muslims themselves fight over which this right path is. In India there are all these divisions each claiming that their way is the right way. And all of them say they are Muslims and follow Islam. Yet each group has different way of doing things. You just have to go to a matrimonial site and see the various categories of Muslims there are.

So if someone cares to enlighten me a bit, which of all these groups is the only right path?

 

[Alpha Dude]

It is not the religion I have a problem with. It's the Muslims and their behaviour. It's contrary to the teachings of the Prophet sws. Frankly most of the Muslims I've seen, met or known infuriate me because they have a "I'm better than thou" attitude. So if there aren't any Muslims I can respect, which community am I supposed to join?
Sometimes the Christian community seems better to me because they have better manners.

You shouldn't care so much of what others behave like. Even if it was you against the world, you should hold on to the truth for truth's sake. If you are strong enough, guide others who you see making mistakes. You will be questioned for your own actions once you die, not the action of others.

You are right. It is a demonstration of lack of faith. I have absolutely no faith in the way of life of the Muslims today. This makes me a non-Muslim.

No it doesn't. Believing that the Muslims of today are not following the path of true guidance does not make you a non-muslim. There is a set of criteria which must be met in order to classify one outside of the fold of Islam and this is not one of them.

So if someone cares to enlighten me a bit, which of all these groups is the only right path?

You should be aware that within Sunni Islam, there are different schools of jurisprudence with different views but all are considered valid. It may be these schools that you could have read and assumed there were more sects than there are.

To answer your question, I will say it is Sunni Islam that is the correct path. Don't take my word for it. I only urge you to make a clear and unbiased study and couple that with true dua for guidance to Allah, then you will in sha Allah settle on the path that is correct.