Good works and Religion

[Zafran]

I'm not sure that Catholics get to heaven, Eric :giggling: - but beautifully said. I agree with every word.

I don't think Catholics believe that Muslims are going to heaven regardless of how "ethical" or "good" they were. To deny the mercy of God in Catholicism (crucifixion of Jesus) is to put yourself in hell.

To deny the monotheism of God in Islam its the same thing.

 

[Ansariyah]

Allahu Allam.

To god is our final return, is all I can say. What state he died in we don't know best to leave it to Allah.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Independent,

Apologies for my delayed replies. Also the posts have become a bit lengthy and some points may be scattered due to overlap...

If those are the rules for Islam so be it, that's not for me to say. But for religion in general - absolutely not. One of the main benefits of religion (I won't call it 'purpose' although that could be the case as well) is to give moral standards of behaviour. All of the great religions work well in this respect or they simply could not have survived and prospered.

There may have been a misunderstanding. I am not saying that religion does not confer moral standards of behaviour. I was saying that by isolating this aspect of religion and taking God out of the picture, you are deeming the concept of religion irrelevant.

But although these values are codified by religions, that doesn't mean they can't be broadly acceptable to people of other religions or no religion.

I don't disagree with this.

In Mandela's case, his life is exceptional. He has been a far better man than any of us on this forum (unless someone remarkable is hiding here under a secret identity!) both in moral courage and actual achievement. Yet it would seem that every Muslim here still rates themselves as superior to Mandela simply because they have a Muslim label on their behaviour, and he hasn't. Astonishingly, Mandela potentially earns eternal punishment. Even the apartheid regime only gave him 27 years.

It seems that words speak louder than actions - simply saying the shahada once is worth more than a lifetime of sacrifice and nobility. Form has become entirely separated from function.

There are a number of issues here. Firstly, I do not remember anyone rating themselves as superior to anyone else on account of behaviour. Secondly, a believer connects his thoughts and emotions to the hereafter, viewing true success in spiritual as well as worldly terms. When believers and non-believers have different perspectives of what it means to be successful and regarding the afterlife, they will not necessarily see eye to eye on who is better than whom. Thirdly, I have said earlier that this thread is not for passing judgement on Nelson Mandela, so it is not our place to say what will happen to him. It is sufficient to know that God knows His servants better than we do, as His knowledge and wisdom is greater than we can comprehend. Whilst we see the outer actions of other humans, He is able to know their hearts and intentions. His punishment and reward are based on perfect justice.

Your last statement about the shahadah is misinformed. Muslims do not believe that a superficial utterance of the shahadah guarantees them Paradise, nor do they believe that a Muslim can never enter Hell for a period of time. The very beginning passages of the Qur'an describe a type of people who believe outwardly yet inwardly disbelieve. So simply having a ‘Muslim label’ will not save anyone.
The shahadah is a serious issue - it is the key to Paradise but it has conditions, and as with any key it needs to be maintained and kept secure. So it is certainly not true that words carry more weight than actions. A cursory glance at Islam and the Qur'an will tell you that belief is always coupled with action.

Although I understand your views when I read it line by line, when I see where it ends up I feel something has to be wrong, this cannot be what was intended.

Perhaps you have not understood correctly, or I have not been able to explain it right.

 

[Muhammad]

This is in response to your other post...

Islam should be in the reach of anyone both now and throughout history - yet the hunter gatherers of the Amazon (who live like we all used to, in countless small bands) still have zero opportunity. There is absolutely no trace of the influence of Islamic ideas outside the places where you might expect to find them for historical reasons. As for these tribes, they have not received any messengers, or if they have there is no trace of their message in any tribe today or at any point in history, so their people still have no opportunity.

This opportunity is not at all equal. It's theoretical. And it's easy to find societies where that opportunity drops all the way to zero. To paraphrase a well known phrase: in many societies, it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a person to convert to Islam.

When it comes to people who have never heard of the message of Islam, they will receive their own judgement from God. That is even more reason why we as human beings cannot pass judgement on others because we do not know to what extent they received and understood the message of truth. It is our duty to simply convey the message.

It's worth noting, however, that each and every one of us has been given tools to recognise the existence of God, in the absence of influence from others. A person living in the Amazon is able to realise there is one God worthy of worship. God alone knows how this person would respond if more information came to him and how best to Judge him.

Being religious should involve good deeds, but that doesn't mean every follower actually does them in practice.

Of course. But in relation to the point I was responding to, becoming more religious does not negate the presence of good deeds, rather they go hand in hand. It is not the case that they would become 'irrelevant'.

And even many of those Muslims who do give to charity etc, do so for the wrong selfish reasons - to buy their own ticket to paradise, to look 'good' in their community etc. Bad motivation for good deeds is a human failing that will occur among the followers of any religion, or no religion. Look around you - Muslims are not immune.

Leaving aside secular morality - in what way is a person who does a good deed for the sake of their God any worse than a Muslim who does a good deed for Allah? They are equally selfless or self interested.

It is true that doing good deeds for the wrong reasons can happen to anyone. This is something highlighted in Islam, where we are taught that all actions are by intentions and that doing something for the sake of others ruins such deeds. However, doing something for the sake of God is a noble act. It is not possible to 'buy' a 'ticket' to Paradise. Similar to what Eric said, it is ultimately the Mercy of God that allows entry to Paradise, not purely the number of deeds we did. That is why sincerity is all the more important, and one remains in a state of hope and fear that their deeds are accepted; there is no automatic guarantee.

So, what it comes to is, you're saying morality itself is less important than belief. A Buddhist could be every bit as charitable, virtuous etc as a Muslim, but this counts for nothing.

Belief forms the very basis of our purpose in life. It is the most important message delivered by all the Prophets, Messengers and divine revelation. How can it be that someone forgoes such a crucial part of their existence and expect equal treatment to another person who fulfilled their purpose?

He gets the same eternal punishment as a mass murderer. There is only one punishment for any and every crime - and it's the worst possible punishment you can possibly imagine, infinitely exceeding the worst punishment man has ever inflicted on man.

Punishments in the afterlife are of varying levels, just as rewards are. So the exact punishment is according to the Justice of God.

And even a person of Mandela's exceptional qualities, or another like him, is potentially headed for hell simply because they were born into another religion, not a Muslim family.

I have already mentioned earlier that it doesn't simply come down to being born into the 'wrong' family. Every single event happens for a purpose and based on divine wisdom, regardless of whether we understand it or not. There are many factors that may influence a person throughout their life, and all things are taken account of by God.

To end, some of the statements expressed by yourself and others in this thread carry an implication that Muslims are arrogantly looking down at the rest of the world, as if gloating over their 'bad luck'. This is a gross misunderstanding. Guidance from God is amongst the greatest gifts and blessings which we are indebted to God for granting to us, and it is something we must cherish. It is not a right that we deserve nor a guarantee that it will remain. Hence we continue to ask God in every unit of prayer to guide us to the Straight Path, as we need Him to keep us firm on the path of guidance [Qur'an 1:6]. We do not have the power to benefit or harm ourselves, thus God has directed us to invoke Him constantly for His aid.

Moreover, we do not know if we will die upon a pleasing state to God. We cannot feel safe from the various trials in life, nor can we feel safe from the punishment of God. That is why we are in no position to be arrogant, when our own guidance is in God's Hands and He taught us when we knew nothing. Arrogance is also the quality of Satan, not a believer who submits himself humbly to God.

As for the rest of mankind, it is our duty and responsibility to convey the message to them. When someone dies a disbeliever, it is partly our failing for not reaching out to them and we fear for them. Our Prophet :saws: would grieve much over those who did not accept the message, and he was anxious over the fate of others. The story of Ta'if is a famous example of this, where he overlooked the physical abuse the people put him through and did not desire their destruction in the hope that their offspring may be guided.

I hope this last part puts the discussion into perspective, and I seek Allaah :swt:'s forgiveness if I said anything wrong.

May Allaah :swt: guide us to the Straight Path, Aameen.

 

[glo]

I don't think Catholics believe that Muslims are going to heaven regardless of how "ethical" or "good" they were. To deny the mercy of God in Catholicism (crucifixion of Jesus) is to put yourself in hell.

To deny the monotheism of God in Islam its the same thing.

Perhaps your understanding of what Catholics (or indeed all Christians) believe is a bit limited and too narrow.
I think here is a Catholic who believes otherwise.

I am a Catholic, and if I should achieve salvation; it will not be through my effort, rather it will be through the grace, mercy, and forgiveness of God. If God could be this merciful to me, I pray that he will also be this merciful to all others.

In the spirit of praying to a merciful and forgiving God,

Eric

 

[Independent]

Greetings Muhammad

Thank you for you very considered and patient replies - I appreciate that questions about the Islamic nature of punishment and entry to heaven must get asked all the time. But they're still new to me!

becoming more religious does not negate the presence of good deeds, rather they go hand in hand. It is not the case that they would become 'irrelevant'.

I understand that belief alone is not enough and that no Muslim is guaranteed paradise. But what about the reverse case? What interests me in this thread is whether non-belief is a total barrier - an exclusion clause - no matter what the character of the individual or the reason for their non belief.

I take it from your replies that those who say that non belief is a total barrier are wrong. In reading around this I came across this link which I thought explained things well and is very interesting about the meaning of the term 'kufr' - very possibly it's wrong in some way I can't tell but here it is anyway:
http://quranforbusypeople.com/2012/03/do-all-non-muslims-go-to-hell/

Elsewhere I came across this from Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301):
"Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) said: "Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."

As I understand it, this states that non believers will be judged at the appointed time and may indeed enter heaven, as might a practicing Muslim. Please correct me if I'm wrong. From past comments in various threads, I'm quite sure that not all Muslims believe this.

some of the statements expressed by yourself and others in this thread carry an implication that Muslims are arrogantly looking down at the rest of the world, as if gloating over their 'bad luck'

From some replies, it does feel like that. I am trying to understand what comes from Islam, and what stems from the misunderstanding of individual Muslims. But it's hard for me as a non Muslim, as I am continually being told how fabulously ignorant and incapable I am of being able to understand the smallest thing about Islam. (Not by you personally.) When someone tells me that any good deed by any non Muslim is always done for selfish reasons (and this has been said) I can't help but feel that this is indeed arrogance, as well as being manifestly untrue.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you جوري;

In fact dear Eric the greatest commandment is to love God per your bible .. and to show love to God is to obey his commandments:

Certainly the greatest commandment is to love God, but it cannot be separated from the second commandment. It is also said; if you say you love God who you do not know, yet hate your neighbour who you do know; you are a liar.

Jesus said, what you do to these least of my brothers of mine, so you do onto me, when you feed the hungry, clothe the naked give shelter to the homeless, visit the prisoner, this is how we show our love for God, and we obey his commandments. I think Islam has a similar passage.

many of the comments here do remind me also of this verse from the Quran:

Al-Jathiya [45:23]

أَفَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ وَأَضَلَّهُ اللَّهُ عَلَى عِلْمٍ وَخَتَمَ عَلَى سَمْعِهِ وَقَلْبِهِ وَجَعَلَ عَلَى بَصَرِهِ غِشَاوَةً فَمَن يَهْدِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ اللَّهِ أَفَلَا تَذَكَّرُونَ

​

Afaraayta mani ittakhatha ilahahu hawahu waadallahu Allahu AAala AAilmin wakhatama AAala samAAihi waqalbihi wajaAAala AAala basarihi ghishawatan faman yahdeehi min baAAdi Allahi afala tathakkaroona​

​

45:23 Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?

_____________________________________________________

If it is a matter of anything goes then there's no point at all for God to have sent all those messengers:

Al-Baqara [2:38]

قُلْنَا اهْبِطُواْ مِنْهَا جَمِيعاً فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّي هُدًى فَمَن تَبِعَ هُدَايَ فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

​

Qulna ihbitoo minha jameeAAan faimma yatiyannakum minnee hudan faman tabiAAa hudaya fala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona​

​

2:38 We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

_____________________________________

That is our purpose in life since the expulsion from heaven. To find our way back through God's guidance..
I assure you all the likes and thumbs up will be meaningless on the day of recompense!

peace to you

​

​

Thanks for sharing, we struggle and strive to change ourselves.

Blessings and peace to you and those you love;

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings nd peace be with you Zafran;

I don't think Catholics believe that Muslims are going to heaven regardless of how "ethical" or "good" they were. To deny the mercy of God in Catholicism (crucifixion of Jesus) is to put yourself in hell.

You might read this....

Vatican's New Catechism declares Muslims and Jews to be saved!


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

This paragraph essentially proclaims that "the plan of salvation" includes all faiths that acknowledge the true creator. The reasoning given is that since the Muslims claim the faith of Abraham, and worship the one true God, they are not only among the saved, but are at the top of any such list.

In preceding paragraphs (839, 840) the Jews are discussed, and parallels drawn between Christians and Jews. Both it is said, are awaiting the advent of the Messiah, though the Jews do so in unbelief relative to Jesus.

Footnote 330 directs one to Lumen Gentium, (DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH), POPE PAUL VI, November 21, 1964, section 16:


16. ... But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

Footnote 330 also directs one to NOSTRA AETATE, (DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS), POPE PAUL VI, October 28, 1965, section 3:


3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

These statements regarding the Muslims also apply exactly and identically to the Jews. The implication made in paragraph 841 of the catechism is that in addition to the Muslims, which are just the first example, the Jews also are saved by their recognition and worship of the true creator and their Abrahamic faith.

http://biblelight.net/newcat.htm

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

 

[Zafran]

that's interesting but you do see that it focuses a lot more on faith then in the deeds of Muslims and Jews. The article puts a lot more emphasis on faith being the main factor of being saved. Deeds are indeed as you said a by product of faith but not the soul reason of being saved.

 

[جوري]

Certainly the greatest commandment is to love God, but it cannot be separated from the second commandment. It is also said; if you say you love God who you do not know, yet hate your neighbour who you do know; you are a liar.

indeed one commandment follows another and another.. there's no argument we're stratifying them in order of importance. I don't recall anyone saying hate your neighbor here though!

Thanks for sharing, we struggle and strive to change ourselves.

Change should be for the better..

all the best,

 

[Muhaba]

Being good to one's neighbor is also part of Religion Islam.

in the hadith it is written:
والله لا يؤمن ، والله لا يؤمن بالله ، والله لا يؤمن بالله ، ولا يؤمن . قالوا : يا رسول الله وما ذلك ؟ قال : جار لا يأمن جاره بوائقه . قالوا : يا رسول الله وما بوائقه ؟ قال : شره

A rough translation is as follows:
The Prophet (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said thrice: "By Allah, he doesn't believe." His companions asked, who? The Prophet (SAW) said "the one from whose evil his neighbor is not safe."

 

[glo]

You might read this....

Vatican's New Catechism declares Muslims and Jews to be saved!


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

This paragraph essentially proclaims that "the plan of salvation" includes all faiths that acknowledge the true creator. The reasoning given is that since the Muslims claim the faith of Abraham, and worship the one true God, they are not only among the saved, but are at the top of any such list.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

I did not know about this. A very powerful and inclusive message from one faith to another.
It would be lovely if all faiths could extend that kind of respect and appreciation to each other.

I am glad you shared this, Eric. God's peace to you

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings glo,

Apologies for the delayed reply.

From what you have said it seems I was wrong to assume I was talking to a Christian, or at least a person following orthodox Christian beliefs.

I believe that God is greater than any of our human perceptions and interpretations of him

Or is it possible - as Eric often suggests - that God guides us differently?

From a logical point of view, it does not make sense for the truth to keep changing or be so obscure. What seems more likely, considering the nature of God and the nature of man, is that people keep distorting it whether deliberately or out of ignorance. The fact that the Abrahamic religions have some similar teachings is suggestive that the source is one and the message is a continuation of the same, but that people have fallen into error. If God is Kind and Loving, as both our religions teach, how could a Loving God leave mankind in error without any way of knowing right from wrong? Surely the fact that so many Prophets and Messengers being sent to mankind is indicative that God is teaching us the right way, and that the right way is one, in terms of the core message concerning God, the afterlife, etc.

Differences concerning methods of prayer and other aspects of worship are one thing. But when the core message of each faith is different - what is blasphemy in one religion is required for salvation in another - then such a conflict shows that both as they are today cannot be true at the same time.

In this thread we have been talking about people condemned to eternal punishment in Hellfire, which we can all see as being the worst fate. For something as serious as this, God would not leave us in confusion as to how to save ourselves from it. Believing otherwise undermines the greatness and glory of God; it does not affirm it.

As observer says, I cannot believe in a God who would dish out eternal punishment to somebody who happened to follow the wrong religion (or none at all) - no matter how good a person s/he had been. I believe that God knows us better than that and looks deeper than that.

Indeed God does know us better than that and looks deeper - He alone knows to what extent we received and understood the message. But that is not an excuse for us to pick and choose any way we want to. It is not for us to decide what God can and cannot do. Our responsibility is to respond to His call.

And for the record, I would probably call myself a muslim with a small 'm', or a muslim Christian - somebody who believes in one God and tries to submit to him and who follows the teachings of Jesus.

I should ask what is meant by the teachings of Jesus when the authors of the Bible came much later than Jesus and introduced things he never taught. But that would deserve its own discussion.

Do you think that somebody like me - who has learned a fair bit about Islam and spent much time with Muslims, but still does not believe in Islam as the true religion - is somebody who is defiantly disobedient?

I cannot know that. What is in your heart is known only to God and He is the best of Judges.

It's not so much about finding it wrong, but it is not for me.

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding here as you seem to have answered a different question. You said we should be careful of thinking of ourselves as 'more guided' than others, which essentially takes away the concept of right and wrong and the discussion goes back to what we said earlier about truth and falsehood requiring a clear distinction.

It doesn't at all. I just thought it might appease those who believe that God only loves those who pray the Islamic way. :shade:

Our discussion is more than different ways of prayer. There are even those who pray the Islamic way yet they are rebuked by God for the lack of sincerity in their hearts. In any case, posting such pictures says nothing about what God is or is not pleased with.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Eric,

Jesus gave us the parable of the ‘Good Samaritan’ to describe ‘The greatest commandments. It might seem strange, but the parable of the Good Samaritan almost makes a mockery of religion.

Strange that Jesus should use this as a story, to describe the greatest thing we should do. Jesus seems to talk about the misuse of religion.

I notice that the Samaritan was praised for his act to the wounded man, not for his creed. It is quite possible to acknowledge good traits of people of other faiths without contravening one's own. The Prophet :saws: acknowledged the Christian King of Abyssinia for his justice. It does not imply that religion is no longer important.

 

[greenhill]

I understand that belief alone is not enough and that no Muslim is guaranteed paradise. But what about the reverse case? What interests me in this thread is whether non-belief is a total barrier - an exclusion clause - no matter what the character of the individual or the reason for their non belief.

I see this matter creeping up in quite a few places but this one puts a 'barrier' which is a good description, I suppose. People of the Book believe in the concept of heaven and hell (only over time the messages have changed and created differences). Seeing as I do not make the rules and have to obey them if I want to play the 'game', all I can really consider is am I doing it right? Am I doing enough? etc, it is about me and serving my Lord. It has never been about me negotiating for someone else. So, if to get somewhere you will need a certain kind of 'passport' to ensure arrival, those who do not get the 'passport' are immediately put at a disadvantage (putting it mildly). How it goes from there is entirely up to Allah and it does not bode well to make supposition on things way beyond our realm.

The thing which may put people like you off religion is when you have to hear people putting their opinions across in ways that may rub you the wrong way. After all, it is what they pick up from the Quran itself, and it says syirk is the biggest form of sin, which is to associate others to Him or to worship some other idol. Can't blame those people for saying that hell is for unbelievers.

To put it in another way, there is not many other ways that muslims could convey the message that would make people realise. It is a major issue. Please, we do not want you to burn in hell, but not many people really want to listen ...

Peace :shade:

 

[glo]

I am really enjoying reading all the thoughts and comments, and I am finding the discussion very beneficial.

It seems to me that there is a tension between believers on the one hand having the conviction that their faith is the best way to salvation/paradise and needing to convey this conviction to non-believers to given them a chance of salvation/paradise too, and on the other hand the insight that we should not judge others and that only God knows.

I have listened to many Christians and Muslims over the years and it seems that people tend to veer towards either one or the other position. Either they come across as quite judgmental or they seem relaxed to keep it all in God's hands.

I wonder, is it difficult to strike a balance between both positions?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Muhammad; thanks for your thoughts;

Greetings Eric,

I notice that the Samaritan was praised for his act to the wounded man, not for his creed. It is quite possible to acknowledge good traits of people of other faiths without contravening one's own. The Prophet :saws: acknowledged the Christian King of Abyssinia for his justice. It does not imply that religion is no longer important]

In the parable, the priests and the Levite had the freedom to help the wounded man, if they did, it would make them impure for a while and they would not be able to perform their religious duties for that period. The religious law was clear, it did not say you must never come into contact with anything impure, but if you do you must purify yourself afterwards, which is what Jesus implied they should have done. This parable was to give an example of what is greatest, so it should not be taken lightly by Christians.

If the priests could have looked beyond their law to the 'Spirit of the Law' they would have helped the wounded man, it seems that Jesus was challenging which is greater, religious duties, or human needs

Jesus gave us many examples of making religious people the bad guys in the story.

In the spirit of searching beyond the law, to the spirit of the law.

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you glo;

I am really enjoying reading all the thoughts and comments, and I am finding the discussion very beneficial.

It seems to me that there is a tension between believers on the one hand having the conviction that their faith is the best way to salvation/paradise and needing to convey this conviction to non-believers to given them a chance of salvation/paradise too, and on the other hand the insight that we should not judge others and that only God knows.

I have listened to many Christians and Muslims over the years and it seems that people tend to veer towards either one or the other position. Either they come across as quite judgmental or they seem relaxed to keep it all in God's hands.

I wonder, is it difficult to strike a balance between both positions?

Thanks for sharing as always, I am reminded of the many passages that say; we will be judged by the way we judge other people, scary thought.

Blessings and peace be with you and your family,

Eric

 

[greenhill]

After completing my errands a bit earlier today, I got to the mosque a lot earlier and picked up a book to while away my time reading random surah and the first thing I came across was this and it reminded me of this thread...


18:103
Sahih International
Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?
Yusuf Ali
Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-

18:104
Sahih International
[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work."
Yusuf Ali
"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

18:105
Sahih International
Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance.
Yusuf Ali
They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.

It mentions clearly why good deeds of non believers count for nothing. It is not what I say or want to believe or anything to do with any muslims for that matter but a decree by Allah and one of His stern warnings why non believers will be the greatest losers (as to their deeds).

Peace :shade:

 

[muslimah bird]

Vatican's New Catechism declares Muslims and Jews to be saved!841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]This paragraph essentially proclaims that "the plan of salvation" includes all faiths that acknowledge the true creator. The reasoning given is that since the Muslims claim the faith of Abraham, and worship the one true God, they are not only among the saved, but are at the top of any such list.

The plan of salvation is clearly given in the bible in ezekiel 18:21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.Where does it say that if you believe that my son Jesus died for your sins and then salvation is yours ?