Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,
If I may, I would like to take a different approach to our dialogue concerning the Trinity.
“Praise be Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject Faith hold (others) as equal, with their Guardian-Lord” -- Al-Anaam 1 (Sura 6:1)."
What is your definition or understanding of creation?
“I could paste Muslim commentary of these verses but I think it would be more beneficial if you picked one that you felt strongly supported the divinity of Christ and then we analyzed that specific verse.”
I will choose one.
“Why would they say that? Weren't they supposed to kill Jesus? Wasn't that the purpose of his coming to earth? What do you mean they would say, "we had no time to decide" ? Decide about what?”
No one was supposed to kill Jesus. If someone was supposed to kill Jesus, that would imply that Jesus was guilty of some crime and deserved a payment or retribution for that crime. If you said, “Wasn’t Jesus supposed to die?” I would agree with you. Death was the payment of sin. Did GOD allow people to kill Jesus? Yes, He allowed it. Did He implement it? No.
The purpose of His coming to earth was to pay the ultimate price for our sin and create a way for us to have eternal life. His purpose was to sacrifice His life. In His foreknowledge, GOD knew how Jesus would die. The decision people needed to make was the decision to follow Jesus. Many people understood that Jesus was the Son of GOD; they chose to follow Him. Many others did not understand who He was and why He came. They accused Him of blasphemy and finally crucified Him. They had heard the message of salvation but chose not to follow Him and His Gospel. Instead, they decided to kill Him.
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GOD did not have to die.
But God had to die in order to forgive His creation?
Yes, GOD did have to die in order to forgive His creation. There is a difference, however, between these two statements. GOD did not have to forgive His creation and in that sense, He did not have to die. He chose, however, to make a way for us to have eternal life. Once He made this choice, yes, then He had to die. His having to die was part of His plan for our salvation. GOD was abiding by His own laws that He implemented.
“Once again, you're nitpicking with words. By saying that God wanted to die, I'm not saying that He desired death, but that He intended to die.”
I realize that I am being a bit nitpicky but I would rather err on the side of caution. Yes, GOD intended to die and was willing to die. I was responding, I think, to the “GOD wanting to be killed” idea. There is a vast difference between wanting to be killed and willing to die.
“No forgiveness? Numbers 14:20 seems to disagree with you.”
What’s your opinion concerning Numbers 14:21-23?
“Unfortunately, you still did not answer my question. My question is, once again:
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So from a Christian perspective, there is now no difference between a pious Christian and a mass-murder and rapist. Both will go to paradise because God has paid for their sins. People should have fun and do whatever they like in this world, sinning as much as possible, because God has paid for their sins.”
Please specifically tell me what will be the fate of a mass-murderer and rapist in the afterlife. How can you say 'Hell' when God has already paid for his sin? it means that God did not really pay for his sins because now he has to be punished for them again.”
People who sin as much as possible are people who have continued on the road to hell. They are people who have not truly confessed their sin to GOD from their hearts; who have not truly been sorry for their sin; who have not been willing to truly acknowledge themselves as sinful and who have not truly accepted the gift of forgiveness through Jesus Christ. A mass-murderer and rapist who truly come to an understanding of their sinful nature and humbly come before GOD, committing themselves wholeheartedly to Him; confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior will experience GOD’s forgiveness. When Jesus hung on the cross He prayed, “Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they are doing”. Forgiveness is not imposed on us. It is offered to us to accept or reject. People who reject GOD’s forgiveness choose the road to hell. Allow me to say this again. Before GOD brought “into effect” His way of salvation for us, there was no other road other than the road to hell. His forgiveness of our sin entitled Him to open a road to eternal life. By nature, we are sinful. We all travel the road to hell. Now we have a choice. Stay on this road or follow Jesus, the new road to eternal life. Because the price for our sin has been paid, we no longer have to go to hell. Through His grace, mercy, and love, GOD has offered us the free road to heaven. We can choose to take this road or we can choose to take the road to hell. We now have a choice.
“What constitutes a rejection and what constitutes an acceptance of His forgiveness?”
Allow me to explain. You used the term “pious Christian” earlier. Again, true Christianity is not pious by nature. However, many Christians struggle with the issue of piety—so do many Muslims; so do all people of the world. No one likes to admit they are wrong. Many times we may know we are wrong about something, but we are not going to confess that; we are not going to accept that. The sinful human nature goes against the willing and humble attitude and mindset of acknowledging, accepting, and confessing we are sinful by nature. Acceptance of forgiveness can only take place when we recognize and then acknowledge, accept, and confess that we are sinful. As long as we believe and think we are not sinful by nature; as long as we recognize our sinful nature but refuse to humble ourselves and confess our sin, we cannot accept forgiveness. As long as we keep justifying our actions and behavior; as long as we keep justifying our nature, we cannot accept forgiveness. True acceptance of forgiveness buries our piety and pride. It buries excuses; it buries our mindset of being good enough for GOD. When this happens, the way of forgiveness is truly accepted. Rejection involves rejecting the ideas and the principles and the truths about who we are as people by nature. Many people will say, “Yes, I have confessed my sin to GOD and asked His forgiveness, so I will go to heaven.” Often, however, this is said and done so that people can say that their salvation and way to heaven has been an amazing accomplishment on their own. This will never work. This is a form of rejection and piety that dishonors GOD greatly. GOD does not listen to words we say; He does not watch deeds we do. GOD searches the heart and examines our motives.
“Tell me about the innocent human babies who were murdered throughout history - what sin did they do?”
These babies did not commit any sin. But they, like every other baby in the world, were born with a sinful nature—a natural tendency toward sin. At their age, they do not understand what sin is. A point in time comes when they know the difference between right and wrong. This is when they will be accountable.
“Why is that? If God has forgiven every single sin you did and will do in your life, and has even punished himself for it, then He cannot reasonably hold you accountable for it. It does not make sense for him to punish you after He has already died for your sins. What about those Christians who murdered and slaughtered innocent people (like the Crusaders) yet still accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. According to Christianity, these people will not be punished for the tremendous atrocities they committed because God already died for their sins.”
GOD will not hold us accountable for our sin. The price was paid. What GOD is going to hold us accountable for is our acceptance or rejection of His forgiveness. You are right, GOD will not punish. If GOD punishes then His forgiveness is of no effect. We, however, will implement punishment on ourselves. Just like there is eternal life in heaven, there is eternal life in hell. We now decide to which one we want to go. Many, many people call themselves Christians. In the name of Christianity they murdered people. Crusaders were not true followers of Jesus Christ. Christianity is not a religion about violence, retribution, and pay back. True Christianity—biblical born again Christianity—is about forgiveness, love, servitude, perfect moral and ethical standards, and grace. Crusaders did not implement true Christianity in their lives. People who truly accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, are people who become “born-again.” They no longer have desires to sin; they no longer have a pious and proud attitude; they desire in the depths of their heart to follow Jesus at all costs. People who continue to commit atrocities are people rejecting GOD’s forgiveness and continuing down the road to hell.
“If God paid for future sins as well, as you believe, then there should be no blame on the Christian who decides to lead a sinful life.”
Again, someone who chooses to lead a sinful life, is someone who has not accepted GOD’s forgiveness from the heart. Someone choosing to lead a sinful life is not a true Christian; is not a true born again believer; is not a true follower of Jesus. The desire to lead a sinful life has died in the life of true Christians. People who have this desire, are not true Christians at all. They may go by the name of Christian; they may attend church every week; they may give money to the poor—but those things do not make them true born again believers. Christianity to them is simply a religion about GOD and not a relationship with GOD.
“So which sins are they allowed to do and which sins are they not allowed to do?”
True Christians are not allowed to do any sins—they have no desire to sin. Again, please allow me to quote the apostle Paul in Romans 6:1, “What should we say then? Should we continue in sin [breaking the law] in order that grace may multiply?
Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” GOD’s standard is that of perfection. What He has done for us does not give us the right to do as we please. If we still have the desire to sin, we are not true Christians. Does this mean Christians are perfect people. No! But we no longer have desires to sin. We no longer feel it’s OK to commit one or two sins.
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True born-again Christians have a change of lifestyle that intrigues many people.
Why could God not give people this change of lifestyle without having to die Himself?”
God does not impose this change of lifestyle on people. When we recognize ourselves for who we truly are as sinful human beings; when we recognize GOD for who He is as the Almighty, Holy, Creator of this Universe, our eyes are suddenly opened to see and understand the great divide between ourselves and GOD—a divide that we cannot cross on our own. At this point, the natural inclination is to say that yes, we deserve to go straight to hell. Then on top of that, we see and understand that this Holy, Almighty Creator of the Universe, against whom we sinned, actually came to this earth to sacrifice Himself on our behalf as sinful people—to pay the price for our sin against Him—this becomes the most humbling experience. People who are willing to put their pride in their pocket and acknowledge their sinful human nature and then truly accept this gift, are people who literally die to themselves and become alive to Jesus. Without this Almighty Creator doing what He did for His creation, people would never be able to see themselves for who they truly are by nature—sinful human beings that deserve absolutely nothing from GOD—nothing at all!
Once again, thanks for your feedback and continuing dialogue.
Sincerely,
I hope you're feeling better soon, inshallah.