Prophet Jesus Crucifiction In Bible

[TSpot]

He sent us to this world, and we all have to try our best to strive to get to paradise. This means, sacrificing your wealth to support the needy, and to worship God alone without any partners. This means fighting in jihad (to end all oppression) and to enjoin people to the truth (to islamic monotheism.)

This is what most Christians believe. There are definitional differences. For example, I assume you would consider Jesus a partner. In Christian belief he is not a partner but at the same time He and God are one (through the Trinity). Ending oppression, sacrificing wealth are all also Christian tenets. Jihad, as it is used by many Muslims, is not particularly Christian (killing of innocents) but certainly many Christians have used their faith to justify sins as well. There is also a call to to the truth and to be more evangelical, but obviously not to Islamic monotheism.

You are incorrect that all Christians agree that simple belief gets one to Paradise. In fact, that is relatively uncommon. Many churches believe that they are the one true religion and that only their members achieve that goal. My own tradition does believe in a loving and forgiving God and that Paradise after death is reserved for those who truly believe and repent. Certainly that can lead to many to think that nothing they do on earth matters as long as they make a repentence, and they may be right--it is, after all, up to God only. It does not release us from our duty, however. As humans, we will make mistakes. We should strive to be perfect but none of us are.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey TSpot.


Thanks for clarifying that, we believe similarly to alot of things you mentioned. The only part that makes christianity so hard to believe is the fact that people say that Jesus (peace be upon him and his beloved family) is part of God.

Its just too hard to believe, and what about the prophets before that? Why does God have to come in human form, then get killed by people to show that hes forgave all their sins? Can't he just forgive if a person turns to repentance, instead of showing weakness?


The most easiest/believable fact is that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a prophet from God, and so were the prophets before him, and after him. They all came to preach the message of Almighty Allaah, and that was their only duty. God having any other deity doesn't make sense at all.


Thats how I, and the majority of the muslims feel.


wa Allaahu a'lam. (and Allaah Almighty knows best.)


Peace.

 

[- Qatada -]

If christianity were such an easy religion that it spread so quickly, why then did the christians from the Middle-East convert en masse to islam? Because it was an easier religion than christianity?

Maybe they believed that islam was the real way of life, whereas christianity never made sense? Monotheism involves believing and worshipping one God Alone, and not a human. Maybe worshipping the 'human' made them confused?

Thats one of the things that makes alot of christians turn away from faith. Just check the revert/convert stories thread out. And you'll realise why most people leave it.

 

[TSpot]

Thanks for clarifying that, we believe similarly to alot of things you mentioned. The only part that makes christianity so hard to believe is the fact that people say that Jesus (peace be upon him and his beloved family) is part of God.

I do not want to get too much into this for fear that it might be viewed as proselytizing, which is not my intention. The concept of the Holy Trinity can be difficult for even Christians to understand, since it is so different from our human urges for clear taxonomy. In fact, many Christian traditions essentially give up on this and almost substitute Jesus for God in many ways. Even those who believe, as I do, in the Trinity, often find it easier to relate to Jesus and His suffering. But we do not believe that he is a partner.

You say it is hard to believe and you may be right. However, I would counter that the difficulty of a belief does not make it any more or less worthy. Athiests would say that we are both wrong because any belief in God is more difficult than not believing--especially if one strives to live as He would want us to.

In the end, we are talking about faith. It is not possible for mere humans to prove the existence of God and it is arrogant to try, IMO. God's greatness is beyond human understanding.

In any case, I am not here to preach and am not worthy to do so. I was hoping to point out that, at the core, Christians and Muslims have very similar beliefs. There are differences, of course, but we shouldn't forget the similarities.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey again.


I agree with your point that alot of atheists will say that its too hard to prove that there really is a God that exists. The only difference is that, they will keep saying this due to the fact that they reject God.

But for the believers, this is a totally different thing, and we know that if a person takes one step to the direction towards God, (wanting to believe) - God will take a even bigger step towards you. And the people who reject God, are like the dumb, deaf and the blind - because they reject all the signs of God. Just looking around the world/skies/seas is solid proof to show that there is a greater Being that exists, who created everything out of nothing.


So whoever doesn't want to believe, God doesn't need to come close to them, and whoever has the real intention of wanting to get closer to God; then God will allow him/her to come closer. Its as simple as that


Peace.

 

[Mohsin]

Jihad, as it is used by many Muslims, is not particularly Christian (killing of innocents)

what are you talking about?
Killing of innocents is not "particularly" islam either. In islam whoever kills someone innocent, it's as if he's killed the whole of mankind. Islam doesn't permitt killing of innocents

I assume you would consider Jesus a partner. In Christian belief he is not a partner but at the same time He and God are one

What do you mean sorry that we consider Jesus a partner. i don't quite understand what you mean by this verse

We find it hard to believe Jesus PBUH is son of god, since he never himself claimed divinity in the bible, he in fact said he was sent as a prophet. To me i just can't get around the concept of trinity, how it's 3 in one but not 3 Gods one God, it makes much more sense to me that he was a prophet, just like others and was sent by god

 

[TSpot]

what are you talking about?
Killing of innocents is not "particularly" islam either. In islam whoever kills someone innocent, it's as if he's killed the whole of mankind. Islam doesn't permitt killing of innocents

That is why I used Muslims and not Islam. Recent history is replete with innocents being killed in the name of Jihad. I did not say that this was a tenet of Islam, but it certainly occurs.

What do you mean sorry that we consider Jesus a partner. i don't quite understand what you mean by this verse

Just what I said: I assume that the original poster, when referring to 'partner gods' meant Jesus. He did not correct me in subsequent posts, so it was probably not far off the mark.

We find it hard to believe Jesus PBUH is son of god, since he never himself claimed divinity in the bible, he in fact said he was sent as a prophet. To me i just can't get around the concept of trinity, how it's 3 in one but not 3 Gods one God, it makes much more sense to me that he was a prophet, just like others and was sent by god

You believe what you believe. I have no issue with that. As I said, I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs. As to whether Jesus said he was the son of God (or even God) or just a prophet, it is probably not worth going into here. From my reading of the Bible (even in Greek) I have my own beliefs. Yours are obviously different.

 

[Mohsin]

That is why I used Muslims and not Islam. Recent history is replete with innocents being killed in the name of Jihad. I did not say that this was a tenet of Islam, but it certainly occurs.

Ok i see what you meant now, but would just like to say Brother don't misuse the word jihad, it doesn't mean killing innocent people

Just what I said: I assume that the original poster, when referring to 'partner gods' meant Jesus. He did not correct me in subsequent posts, so it was probably not far off the mark.

We don't believe he's a partner of God, or son or anything, a prophet that's all
Btw i was the oriinal poster, where did i say partner Gods, and everyone probably didn't understand what you meant, because you're way off the mark, it is a pillar of our faith not to have any partners to God

You believe what you believe. I have no issue with that. As I said, I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs.

Surely if you elive your beliefs are right and the way to god, then surely you would want to share them with others, and also have them on the straight path. "What you love for yourself, you love for your Brother" remember

As to whether Jesus said he was the son of God (or even God) or just a prophet, it is probably not worth going into here. From my reading of the Bible (even in Greek) I have my own beliefs. Yours are obviously different.

Well we are in a forum, so isn't the whole point of discussing it rather than not going into it

 

[TSpot]

Ok i see what you meant now, but would just like to say Brother don't misuse the word jihad, it doesn't mean killing innocent people

I know it does not and I apologize if I gave the impression that I did.

it is a pillar of our faith not to have any partners to God

I understand. I was responding to:

This means, sacrificing your wealth to support the needy, and to worship God alone without any partners. This means fighting in jihad (to end all oppression) and to enjoin people to the truth (to islamic monotheism.)

Which I took to mean that Christians believe in a partner to God. My point was that, if the worship of Jesus and God is meant by that, we do not consider them different, but one and the same--with the Holy Spirit, one God. Here it is from the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

I apologize if that is more confusing, but the key parts are "one God" and "one Being with the Father".

Surely if you elive your beliefs are right and the way to god, then surely you would want to share them with others, and also have them on the straight path. "What you love for yourself, you love for your Brother" remember

True--and I do. However, I leave open the possiblilty that, since I am human, I may be wrong. The right way will be shown to all in God's time, not ours. Besides, I would be banned in about 10 seconds if I tried to convert you fine folks.

Well we are in a forum, so isn't the whole point of discussing it rather than not going into it

I am trying to discuss it, but not to do so in a way that is prosetyzing. My point is that Christianity and Islam are very similar. I strongly feel that in this world we should work together to point out the similarities. People have used both for their own ends (some not so good) but I think we should try to work together to promote understanding and stop violence.

 

[Mohsin]

True--and I do. However, I leave open the possiblilty that, since I am human, I may be wrong. The right way will be shown to all in God's time, not ours.

Firstly we should go out and find the truth, atht is the purpose of our life, it isn't always for God to give it to us on a plate. we should go out in search of the truth. Now both christianity and islam talk about heaven/hell, now when soooooo much is at stake, you can't express in words how much is at stake -Heaven forever or the painful torment of hell forvever, when this at at stake don't you think consideration about this is required, i mean if you're not sure about your faith and you may be wrong then maybe you should remain open and look elsewhere aswell
You could wait and wait for that time to come when God shows you the truth, but what if you were to die earlier than expected, then tis too late, and you're infront of God, and he's asking you why you didn't go out in search of the truth if you weren't sure about your own way of life

Besides, I would be banned in about 10 seconds if I tried to convert you fine folks

Lol no course you wouldn't, christians come here all the time and express their views. I've found this forum is extremely open to discussion and dialogue, but when people just start insulting and abusing then people get banned

 

[Turin Turambar]

Hey TSpot.


Thanks for clarifying that, we believe similarly to alot of things you mentioned. The only part that makes christianity so hard to believe is the fact that people say that Jesus (peace be upon him and his beloved family) is part of God.

Its just too hard to believe, and what about the prophets before that? Why does God have to come in human form, then get killed by people to show that hes forgave all their sins? Can't he just forgive if a person turns to repentance, instead of showing weakness?


The most easiest/believable fact is that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a prophet from God, and so were the prophets before him, and after him. They all came to preach the message of Almighty Allaah, and that was their only duty. God having any other deity doesn't make sense at all.


Thats how I, and the majority of the muslims feel.


wa Allaahu a'lam. (and Allaah Almighty knows best.)


Peace.

I am a Christian and I think I can help you with some of your questions. God decided to suffer for us a sign of His love for us. It is similar to what an eartly lover would do for the object of his/her love and do something really difficult in order to show that he/she is in love.
In Christianity God loves us, we are not slaves who have to obey but children who are loved. And God has no problem in showing weakness, in fact, he shows His strength in that weakness. In He who has all the strength weakness is a sign of love. For instance when an earthly parent is playing with his child, he will "let them win". Of course he can win the game whenever he wants, but he will let himself be defeated as a proof of love.
One of the key differences between our religions is that Christianity is based on a God who loves and children who love in return. And Islam is based on a God who orders and slaves who obey those orders.

 

[*Hana*]

Peace:

God decided to suffer for us a sign of His love for us. It is similar to what an eartly lover would do for the object of his/her love and do something really difficult in order to show that he/she is in love.

Why are you trying to apply human attributes to God? What you fail to understand is that God does not NEED us, WE need Him. He can destroy any one of us and create a new one faster than we can blink. His love and mercy is said through His words. He tells us...it's enough. Whether we choose to accept it, is completely up to us.

In Christianity God loves us, we are not slaves who have to obey but children who are loved. And God has no problem in showing weakness, in fact, he shows His strength in that weakness. In He who has all the strength weakness is a sign of love. For instance when an earthly parent is playing with his child, he will "let them win".

Are you saying in Islam, God doesn't love?? We SUBMIT to the will of God. If by "slave" you are referring to the fact that as Muslims we strive to live as He has ordained and worship Him as He tells us we should....then I'm PROUD to be called a slave.

God is NEVER weak. Astagfurillah. How can you even suggest He has weaknesses? God needs to prove nothing!! The love of God cannot be even remotely compared to the love between parent and child. You can't begin to put God on the same level as His creations and by doing that putting His creations on the same level as God!

One of the key differences between our religions is that Christianity is based on a God who loves and children who love in return. And Islam is based on a God who orders and slaves who obey those orders.

The key difference between our beliefs is that we still follow what all messengers and prophets have taught....There is only ONE God. Followers of the true teachings Jesus, pbuh, had laws too. A little thing called the 10 commandments. Paul, a self proclaimed disciple, changed what Jesus, pbuh, taught and that's what you follow today. Islam teaches the love and mercy of Allah, swt, is far greater than his anger. Who are the ones that love God? The ones that follow what HE has ordained or the ones that follow what a man has ordained? Be sure....if I have to choose whose law I should follow.....it won't be Paul's law. I will follow what came from God. I highly suggest you do the same.

Let me ask you something. If we took someone who was with Jesus, pbuh, and followed Him, and put that same person in the world today, who would he believe were the true followers of Jesus, pbuh?

1. Who prostrates during prayer? Muslims
2. Who performs ablution? Muslims
3. Who teaches the oneness of God? Muslims
4. Who submits their will to God? Muslims

Think about that.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Turin Turambar]

To Hana_Aku, thanks for your answer.

Of course God doesn't NEED us, but he LOVES us. If you have a son yourself, you will not need him, but you will love him. And you will be willing to sacrifice for him. That is exactly the relation we Christians have with God, and that is why we are always calling ourselves his children. It is Muslims all over the Internet who insist on calling themselves "slaves". Do you really want to be an slave? Do you think that a master of slaves is something good, something to be admired? Or is a loving father far better?

The love of God CAN be compared to that of an earthly father...if you are careful with the comparison. Remember that God made us in His likeness, so in everything we are we can find at least a shadow of His own nature. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact when you Muslims compare Him to a master of slaves, you are also using an earthly comparison. It is only that the comparison we Christians use is so much better and fitting for a world in which there aren't slaves any more! Perhaps that is one of the reasons why slavery lasted for so long in Islamic countries and why is still going on in places like Sudan. If you think that God is a master of slaves, slavery will look very natural and you will keep it for ever!

Finally, about weaknesses in God. Of course in principle He doesn't have any weakness in His own nature. But he can BECOME weak if he wishes to, in order to show his love for us. It is part of being almighty! He is not FORCED to be strong and powerful. He can decide to be weak, in order to suffer for those He loves. As I said, it is something anyone who is in love will do!

 

[shorouk]

no such thing that someone dies for ur sins ....
sow at would b ur puropse here if u are free of sins and u are all goigjto heaven??? so that means u can steal... kill etc and u end up in heaven????????????

how can god who created all of this complex wrld have a son????????
if he ddi have a son do u think he would b a human ???? just liek us???

 

[Turin Turambar]

Dear shorouk,

When we say that "Jesus died for our sins" what we mean is that he opened a path for us. It is still incumbent upon us to follow that path. If you kill or steal you are obviously not going to heaven, and in that case the sacrifice of Jesus would be in vain for you. But it would still be meaningful for everybody else.

Regarding God having a Son, you have to understand about the nature of the Holy Trinity in Christian thought. God the Father begets by an act of intellectual generation God the Son who is also fully God. We say that God the Son (the second person of the Trinity) is the image of God in his own mind, the concept that God has of Himself. It was God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, who became like us to renovate our world through his sacrifice. And we have seen the fruits of that renovation. The societies who followed him in that renovation developed things that had never been heard of before, such as modern technology, democracy and respect for women.

Even in your own life you are taking advantage of the fruits of the sacrifice of Jesus. Don't forget that Muhammed took many females captives and used them as sex slaves. Others he distributed as part of the booty to his followers. That was the fate of women in the past, when all humans were primitive. But the Christian societies, thanks to the inspiration of Jesus, developed a different way of dealing with women. And today women like you are free and respected (at least in non-Muslim countries) thanks to that inspiration.

 

[Sister Khadija]

Assalam Alakium (Peace Be With You)

Dear shorouk,

When we say that "Jesus died for our sins" what we mean is that he opened a path for us. It is still incumbent upon us to follow that path. If you kill or steal you are obviously not going to heaven, and in that case the sacrifice of Jesus would be in vain for you. But it would still be meaningful for everybody else.

Regarding God having a Son, you have to understand about the nature of the Holy Trinity in Christian thought. God the Father begets by an act of intellectual generation God the Son who is also fully God. We say that God the Son (the second person of the Trinity) is the image of God in his own mind, the concept that God has of Himself. It was God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, who became like us to renovate our world through his sacrifice. And we have seen the fruits of that renovation. The societies who followed him in that renovation developed things that had never been heard of before, such as modern technology, democracy and respect for women.

Even in your own life you are taking advantage of the fruits of the sacrifice of Jesus. Don't forget that Muhammed took many females captives and used them as sex slaves. Others he distributed as part of the booty to his followers. That was the fate of women in the past, when all humans were primitive. But the Christian societies, thanks to the inspiration of Jesus, developed a different way of dealing with women. And today women like you are free and respected (at least in non-Muslim countries) thanks to that inspiration.

First off I respect that you have your way of life as a Christian and I would hope that you would have the same respect for us in the way of life of Islam.

We should not be here to insult others beliefs or any person whether it is another member or a Prophet.

I find it rahter distuburing you would say something so negative as the following:

Don't forget that Muhammed took many females captives and used them as sex slaves. Others he distributed as part of the booty to his followers. That was the fate of women in the past, when all humans were primitive. But the Christian societies, thanks to the inspiration of Jesus, developed a different way of dealing with women. And today women like you are free and respected (at least in non-Muslim countries) thanks to that inspiration.

There is no evidence of Muhammed (SAW) doing such a thing. If he was so bad, then why would the United States Supreme Court depict a postive image of him above their court bench? It was to honor him.

There is no basis of your "facts". These maybe your opinions, but opinions like this should be kept to yourself out of respect for us Brothers and Sisters. You are on an Islamic Forum and that was not a nice thing to say. I could say a lot og things about false Prophets like Joseph Smith and the Mormons. But, since those who are Mormon choose that way of life, I am no better than a Sinner if I condemn someone else. That is GOD's job.

Salaam (Peace)
Sister Khadija:sister:

 

[Turin Turambar]

Dear Sister Khadija,

I assure you that it wasn't my intention to offend anybody. When I said that I was only repeating what I had read in the Hadith, which are now available to anybody on the Internet. You can find the same if you look for it. There is no doubt at all that Muhammed captured women and distributed them among his followers, as part of the general distribution of the booty. And that he kept some for himself and had them as concubines. Those are things that any scholar of Islam would agree with.

You get me wrong if you think I want to offend anybody. Let alone women like you. It is on the contrary, because I respect women tremendously that I want them to learn about how different people have behaved in relation to women in the past. Women should stand for their rights and never allow men to trample on them.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It is Muslims all over the Internet who insist on calling themselves "slaves". Do you really want to be an slave?

A Muslim considers himself or herself the 'abd (servant/slave) of God. The exact same word has been used for the following people in the Bible:

Abraham (Genesis 26:24), Jacob (Isaiah 41:8), Moses (Deuteronomy 34:5, Joshua 1:1), David (2 Samuel 7:8, 1 Kings 8:25), Job (Job 1:8), Isaiah (Isaiah 20:3), and Jesus (Acts 3:13).

If being called 'slave' or 'servant' of God was good enough for these noble Prophets, it's good enough for me.

And btw, if you disagree that the word for these prophets is the same word Muslims use, then know that I checked the arabic translation of the Bible and the word is also 'abd, just like Islam.

Regards

 

[Turin Turambar]

To Ansar Al-'Adl:

You are probably right when you say that the same word (or at least one related to it in those languages) was used in the Old Testament. I frankly don't any Arabic, Aramaic or even Greek to follow you there, but I don't think it is really relevant and I will show you why.

The New Testament is a different thing and it is the important thing for us. Jesus NEVER referred to us as "slaves of God". On the contrary, he scandalized the Jews of his times by addressing God using a word that today would be the equivalent of "Dad". By that he was showing us how beautiful and exalted our position was going to be after His sacrifice. We would never again be "slaves", we would be "sons". Don't you see there the beginning of the incredible change in human affairs that would develop in Christian countries and that later fructified in things like "The Declaration of Human Rights"? Sons have rights, slaves don't. Isn't it natural that the subjects of Saudi Arabia are in esentially the position of slaves with respect to their rulers? It makes perfect sense to me, since for Islam we are after all slaves anyway. My point is still valid, the followers of Islam call themselves "slaves" and the rulers of Muslim countries will make sure that they stay in exactly that position. The followers of Christianity call themselves "sons" and by that they have created the modern western societies in which everybody can aspire (at least theoretically) to the same respect he receives in his own family.

BTW, I saw your post in the other thread. I admire your erudition on the subject but I still think I can give you good arguments. However, since your post is kind of long I will need to finish reading it before answering and that might take some time....

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Turin,
You have't shown me why my point is irrelevant. If all the noble Prophets and pious people were called slaves of God, then its good enough for me.

Regards