terrorism and hijab

[Tasneem]

The quran is our constitution..its the book we follow and whatever it says its ryte..!! so if we want to , or don't we must altogether submit to it coz are name muslim means to submit..!!..we've been bought in turn of our lives. quran says:



and the reasons to wear hijaab are given in the quran itself...

means.. that hijaab is the identity of a Muslim woman..!! its the identity of a pious n respectful woman..!! and experience tells me that no one will say anything to you and u will be respected..
peace

I totally agree!!!! :thankyou: :sister:
I read your message in my e-mail and i was like,''i have to come here and applaud you!!!:happy: And TabTabuin said,''give her rep''!and thats just what im going to do inshallah! :sister: :giggling: :happy:

 

[HeiGou]

where did you read or hear information on muslim women in large numbers (u seem to make it sound that way) being raped in muslim world as well as gang rapes....i would appreciate any source of information where you got this, i would like to see this for myself

I have been clear that there is a problem with evidence given the lack of proper record keeping in the Third World and I have discussed the reasons for thinking that the rate is high. See a few posts up.

i dont disagree, rapes happen everywhere, but in usa rapists, can get out on bail (not to mention child molesters who get 8 yrs for molesting a child...but thats another can of worms i dont want to get into righ now) and in usa there are thos women who dont report rape either, why i dont know, embarresment?...reputation?.....fear?....i dont know?...........i know in muslim countires people who do get caught doing sung things face severe punisjment, i mean if they take your hand for stealing, immagine what they do if you steal someones innocence

Except for a proper hudd punishment for rape you need four adult male witnesses that see actual penetration. How many rapes do you think involve four adult male witnesses? As the moderator Ansar Al-Adl has pointed out, an Islamic judge can, if he chooses and it is always a he, impose a discretionary punishment. But as there appears to be no Islamic juriprudence on what standard of proof is needed, or what the punishment ought to be, that is inevitably culturally determined. Which means that custom prevails. What do you think that culture is likely to be? Muslim countries have very very low rates of convictions for rape. You are more likely to be convicted and punished in the US.

From Amnesty International

According to The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, every two hours a woman is raped in Pakistan and every eight hours a woman is subjected to gang rape. While these figures are derived from reported incidents in 2002, the frequency of rapes is in reality much higher. The combination of social taboos, discriminatory laws and victimization at the hands of the police are key reasons why many rapes remain unreported.​

and you are profiling rapists.....yes....they do have a problem in the first place to be doing what they do......still i never said its womans fault that she got raped, but there is something that she can do to protect herself.....some women carry paper spray, muslim women wear hijab,

What makes you think that hijab is any protection at all? You can see what Muslims think of the protective value of hijab because it is not usually enough. Women are encouraged not only not to go out without it, but not to go out at all or at least in company. An Egyptian sheik once said that a woman ought to leave the home on three occasions.

Also of course the hijab can be used by rapists - if they can take it from the woman, she cannot run outside. There are certainly accounts of Afghan boys doing precisely this.

i dont think you will understand this, but they wear hijab for Allah Swt.....not for me or you or her husband.....so if she wears it for Him, He gives her protection at all times, this is bigger than me or you could understand, ask any sister and see if they disagree......

I am all for anyone doing whatever God wants. As long as no one makes spurious secular arguments for it.

you said and i quote "in much of the world woman have no choice at all?.....homie you watch too much TV....name those parts of the world name those countries and regions and lets see if it really makes up most of the world.

Well let's start with any Muslim country in the Third World with a long history of orthodox Islam.

....we got brothers and sisters from most of the world right here on this forum....from all parts, so how come there isnt one muslim that agrees with you on this post,

Well for one this is a Muslim site - if you went to an Apostate one you would get a different response. For another it is disproportionately literate and hence middle class. Ask poor women. Ask the illiterate.

there are muslims from india pakistan usa malasia arab coutries and europe on this forum....over 200 visits per day......and most of them are muslim.....and there is not one muslim who thinks let alone believe that hijab has to do anything with terrorism or forcing woman to do what she doesnt want to.......coinsidence?....i think not

Nor do I. Because if they hated hijab they might dislike Islam and they would not be here. Selection bias.

 

[HeiGou]

To you maybe but not to me. If it’s got nothing to do with Islam it’s got nothing to do with me. You follow?

Fair enough. But some Islamic laws have consequences. You cannot ignore those and say they are not Islam.

Which part of “theres a black sheep in VERY community didn’t you understand?”

Every Muslim country I have seen, and I admit I have not seen many, have a lot of boys hanging out on street corners misbehaving. If you go to Malaysia you see Malays doing it. You do not see Chinese boys doing it. If you go to Turkey it is hard to find a boy doing anything else.

When you talk about my brother’s in islam like that- that the reason we (women) wear the Hijab because of them- because they can’t control themselves- then someone needs to put you to you place!

You see my brothers in Islam none can be compared to them- those that follow Islam from Quran and Sunnah- no other man is like them. They are modest, kind, caring and most of all God-Fearing. They are not man by gender but they are real men something that men of the west aren’t. They know how to take care of real women. Why? Because they have Islam. Muhammad is their role model. A role Model that is perfect in every sense, in every move. Something that you don’t have.

Then some of them are not following the Quran and the Sunna. Let me quote you another poster

If a woman wears no hijab then men can/will lust at her face...
And then it gets crazy from that point..like when i did'nt cover my face before
guys would follow me in stores i turn arouund and a guys right there looking at me!Its sick men out here and praise be to Allah who has told us how to protect ourselves...when i did'nt cover my face i would be afraid at night of a sick guy coming in and rapin me..this stuff is serious its no laughing matter...
I see girls downtown in the summer when a guy looks at them they just laugh and say to there friends,''you see him looking at me?!''Its not funny....

Somehow I do not think she lives in the West or is talking about Western boys. What do you think?

You brought and presented to me the culture of a country when I we were discussing about ISLAM and the West!

Actually I do not think we were. Islam has nothing to do with terrorism after all. But a lot of these threads go on and on about Western women. And yet Afghan women, all hijab wearers I am sure, are being literally bought and sold. Not a peep out of anyone but us kafirs. Not that is a surprise.

The problems taking place in Afghanistan is easy to resolve with ISLAM. If the people practised the true Islam then these problems wouldn’t arise- culture that conflicts with Islam would be left aside.

How would the problem of buying and selling girls be resolved with Islam? Is it actually forbidden for a man to take money in exchange for his daughter's hand in marriage?

The sexuality of the Western has become a commodity that will give any male person the understanding that a Western woman is available.

Yes. Well. Your problems dealing with the West and lack of understanding aside. Can't you see this disproves your point? Women may or may not give themselves to a male person if they want in the West. But if they do so it is because they are free to do so and that is because they have no financial value in the West. We do not buy and sell them so we do not lock them up to retain their monetary value. They are NOT commodities. If they were we would look after them better and keep them at home. Because they are free in a financial sense, they are free in the sense they can do whatever they like within the law. Not a commodity. No matter how many times you make this claim it will not become true.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Except for a proper hudd punishment for rape you need four adult male witnesses that see actual penetration. How many rapes do you think involve four adult male witnesses? As the moderator Ansar Al-Adl has pointed out, an Islamic judge can, if he chooses and it is always a he, impose a discretionary punishment. But as there appears to be no Islamic juriprudence on what standard of proof is needed, or what the punishment ought to be, that is inevitably culturally determined. Which means that custom prevails. What do you think that culture is likely to be?

As I pointed out to you in the last thread in which we discussed this, burden of proof has nothing to do with culture. If there is sufficient evidence to incriminate the accused then the judge must impose a punishment comparable to the crime. The traditional punishments given out in Muslim countries have been lashes or execution - certainly no slap on the wrist. And sufficient evidence has nothing to do with culture, it has to do with the sophistication of our technology and our methods of gathering evidence, which were poor in all parts of the world prior to the modern era. You can't 'culturally' define burden of proof. It is illogical.

Muslim countries have very very low rates of convictions for rape. You are more likely to be convicted and punished in the US.

Not true. Since no country can get statistics on total unreported rapes, this is mere conjecture put forward by some.

Also of course the hijab can be used by rapists - if they can take it from the woman, she cannot run outside.

A flawed argument, because it is better to be seen without hijab than to get raped!

Nor do I. Because if they hated hijab they might dislike Islam and they would not be here. Selection bias.

Why would they not be here if they disliked Islam? Many of them would come to debate. And there are some misguided individuals who think that hijab is not part of Islam, so their not liking hijab does not equate a dislike for Islam (although it does reflect negatively on their knowledge).

 

[HeiGou]

As I pointed out to you in the last thread in which we discussed this, burden of proof has nothing to do with culture. If there is sufficient evidence to incriminate the accused then the judge must impose a punishment comparable to the crime.

What amounts to sufficient evidence in traditional Islamic jurisprudence?

The traditional punishments given out in Muslim countries have been lashes or execution - certainly no slap on the wrist. And sufficient evidence has nothing to do with culture, it has to do with the sophistication of our technology and our methods of gathering evidence, which were poor in all parts of the world prior to the modern era. You can't 'culturally' define burden of proof. It is illogical.

It is not illogical. What people consider sufficient proof, or indeed proof at all, is highly cultural in nature. Consider the trial by poison phenomenon - the Court gives the two parties poison to drink, however does not die is telling the truth. Sounds silly to us, but it consistutes sufficient proof in the culture is occurs in. Trial by combat too. Islam, and correct me if I am wrong, has relied on oath-taking as a means of proof. This strikes me as odd, but I am sure it does not to you.

Furthermore in rape the line between rape and consentual sex is thin. It often comes down to an interpretation by the jury of what is more likely. That too is entirely culturally based so that even Western lawyers try to get the clothes the girl wore into evidence so that the jury can make a moral judgement about what sort of girl she was - whether she was likely to have consented or was just asking for it. In Islamic courts, with no juries and no lawyers, these decisions will be made by a single male judge. You claim that he is always above his culture? I posted on the Sydney gang rapes a while ago. The mother of one of the boys, heavily veiled, said that the girls asked for it because they got into one of the boys' car. That is not cultural?

Not true. Since no country can get statistics on total unreported rapes, this is mere conjecture put forward by some.

I did not say anything there about unreported rapes. And surveys of the population will tell you something. One of the most shocking figures I have ever seen was asking Bangladeshi women not whether they had been beaten but what they did about it. Of course none of them bothered to tell the police. But over half had not bothered to tell their family.

A flawed argument, because it is better to be seen without hijab than to get raped!

Depends on the likely outcome either way don't you think?

Why would they not be here if they disliked Islam? Many of them would come to debate. And there are some misguided individuals who think that hijab is not part of Islam, so their not liking hijab does not equate a dislike for Islam (although it does reflect negatively on their knowledge).

Why bother debating? They are more likely to hide what their relatives might consider shameful and go shopping. Pious girls are more likely to be here because, after all, what else are they going to be doing?

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

But some Islamic laws have consequences.

like?.....

Every Muslim country I have seen, and I admit I have not seen many, have a lot of boys hanging out on street corners misbehaving. If you go to Malaysia you see Malays doing it. You do not see Chinese boys doing it. If you go to Turkey it is hard to find a boy doing anything else.

And your point been....? it has something to do with islam?

Then some of them are not following the Quran and the Sunna.

Right. At least we are getting somewhere! Indeed some muslim's men and women do not follow islam from quran and sunnah. They gather follow their own disires.

....Let me quote you another poster

Somehow I do not think she lives in the West or is talking about Western boys. What do you think?

How unreasonable are you??! Don’t quote someone’s else saying to me to prove your baseless points.

Yes. Well. Your problems dealing with the West and lack of understanding aside. Can't you see this disproves your point? Women may or may not give themselves to a male person if they want in the West. But if they do so it is because they are free to do so and that is because they have no financial value in the West. We do not buy and sell them so we do not lock them up to retain their monetary value. They are NOT commodities. If they were we would look after them better and keep them at home. Because they are free in a financial sense, they are free in the sense they can do whatever they like within the law. Not a commodity. No matter how many times you make this claim it will not become true.

You know many times i havr told you saling woman to a man she doesn't want to marry has got nothing to do with islam, yet what is really Astonishing is how you keep bringing this up. Many times I asked you to lay your evidence on the table yet you choose to ignore it. This goes to show you arrogance.


The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,

"The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained." (AlBukhari)


When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud).

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

HeiGou you said

is relevant and caused by many factors some of which are Islamic.

and i said :

Now that’s surprise- care to lay your evidence on that table?

I am still waiting for the edivience.

Link for the thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/education-issues/15191-terrorism-hijab-4.html

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I wear the style of hijab that muslimahs wear in Iran, and i'm living in britain. I get looked at like a freak/terrorist. It's not nice, and i get rude commenst occasionally. But after a while you just get used to it, and it only softens my heart and increases my iman every time something happens. You've just got to keep on saying alhamdulillah.
:rose:eace:

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

I wear the style of hijab that muslimahs wear in Iran, and i'm living in britain. I get looked at like a freak/terrorist. It's not nice, and i get rude commenst occasionally. But after a while you just get used to it, and it only softens my heart and increases my iman every time something happens. You've just got to keep on saying alhamdulillah.
:rose:eace:

Subhnallah :heated:

Have you ever been asked my non-muslim women where they could find your Hijab?

I have been asked couple of time's:X

I was quite amazed the fact that they want to wear it and they are not even Muslim's Subhnallah

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

oh and i'm not a iranian... i just wear that hijab because i find it covers you up the best. Some sisters may disagree. I actually wear another big hijab underneath lol. Oh yeah, and I wasn't forced. That's a top question for everyone, 'where you forced'?
:rose:eace:

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

or are you marriaged!

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Subhnallah :heated:

Have you ever been asked my non-muslim women where they could find your Hijab?

I have been asked couple of time's:X

I was quite amazed the fact that they want to wear it and they are not even Muslim's Subhnallah

Aww wow that's amazing. It goes to show that some people wear hijab genuinely because they don't want to be seen as an object for men to look at and ogle and stare at.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

nope, 16 and single

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

lol..... nah you can tell how young i am from my face. they might assume it though lol.

 

[HeiGou]

like?.....

Polygamy is certainly one reason Muslim countries have so many young single men who are not at home with their wives.

Right. At least we are getting somewhere! Indeed some muslim's men and women do not follow islam from quran and sunnah. They gather follow their own disires.

Indeed.

How unreasonable are you??! Don’t quote someone’s else saying to me to prove your baseless points.

You insist that Muslim boys do not do this. I show you someone who makes it very clear she wears the hijab because of the behaviour of the boys who treat her without respect and you get outraged? Why? Why is this in any way unreasonable? Either this is why some women wear it or it is not.

You know many times i havr told you saling woman to a man she doesn't want to marry has got nothing to do with islam,

And I keep asking you whether Islam forbids a man to accept money in exchange for his daughter and you keep refusing to tell me.

yet what is really Astonishing is how you keep bringing this up. Many times I asked you to lay your evidence on the table yet you choose to ignore it. This goes to show you arrogance.

I am sorry you think that is arrogance. Of course I keep bringing it up. You insult Western women and Western men with unjustifiable claims. Yet you ignore the plight of your sisters in the Muslim world. I have never said this is Islamic. I have said it goes on in the Muslim world. A fact you do not care about in any way shape or form. Which is worse - allowing Western women to make their own choices some of which are stupid, or selling daughters? You only seem upset about one of those issues.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,

"The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained." (AlBukhari)

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that a partial quotation?

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 68:

Narrated 'Aisha:

I said, "O Allah's Apostle! A virgin feels shy." He said, "Her consent is (expressed by) her silence

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 70:

Narrated Abdur-Rahman bin Yazid and Majammi bin Yazid.

the same ,Hadith above: A man called Khidam married a daughter of his (to somebody) against her consent. 'If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice.' (4.3) And if somebody says to the guardian (of a woman), "Marry me to so-and-so," and the guardian remained silent or said to him, "What have you got?" And the other said, "I have so much and so much (Mahr)," or kept quiet, and then the guardian said, "I have married her to you," then the marriage is valid (legal). This narration was told by Sahl on the authority of the Prophet

Volume 9, Book 86, Number 98:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent; and the matron should not be married till she is asked whether she agrees to marry or not." It was asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How will she(the virgin) express her consent?" He said, "By keeping silent." Some people said, "If a virgin is not asked for her consent and she is not married, and then a man, by playing a trick presents two false witnesses that he has married her with her consent and the judge confirms his marriage as a true one, and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, then there is no harm for him to consummate his marriage with her and the marriage is regarded as valid."​

When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled." Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud).

Right. Except if the girl is a girl, all her guardian needs to do is keep her quiet and it is a legal marriage isn't it? So she can get the marriage annulled later, but then it may be too late. And again as long as she is afraid of what her husband or her father might do it does not matter does it?

Where in Islamic law does it say that you may not beat your daughter until she is so scared she is silent and then give her to someone in exchange for money? We all know what good Muslims should not do, but that does not mean it is illegal. You have asserted this is unIslamic. Why?

 

[bezimany 071]

"You are more likely to be convicted and punished in the US. "

yes but in US a woman is also more likely to sue you for sexual harrasment just for giving her a compliment on her looks


"What makes you think that hijab is any protection at all? "

i told you you werent going to understand this....msulims didnt make this up themselves.....this comes from higher up, you still wont get it because you try to find your won justifications for everything, youre just wrong

"I am all for anyone doing whatever God wants. As long as no one makes spurious secular arguments for it."

but you do exactly that which you preach against, constantly tring to outsmart everyone on this forum.....u funny man.....i have fun reading your posts.....its almost like stand up comedy

"Well let's start with any Muslim country in the Third World with a long history of orthodox Islam."

you still didnt name any country......and which countries are under orthodox islam, or any other type of islam in your opinion.....since youre not bringing me any facts.....cmon educate me since im sooo clueless

Well for one this is a Muslim site - if you went to an Apostate one you would get a different response. For another it is disproportionately literate and hence middle class. Ask poor women. Ask the illiterate.

poor women dont own computers.......and illeterate cant type....see what i did here...i avoided answering your questions the same way you beat around the bush trying to find justification in something else while ignoring and avoiding my direct and very simple question......youre not fooling anyone bro

"Nor do I. Because if they hated hijab they might dislike Islam and they would not be here. Selection bias."

how was this selection bias, when youre trying to prove something thats clearly not true to bunch of muslims who wont even bother to reply to your bogus posts......mashaallah for their strenght, to hold back..........i swear the most stuff you do on here is go to the other websites copy and paste information.......why dont you sit for the second and pay attention to some of these brothers and sisters who know what theyre talking about instead of trying to prove them wrong with someone elses theses.......youre mad funny

p.s.
are you on any other forums too?....i would love to see what other things you love to argue about since youre here only for the sake of arguing, and not learning......

you need peace brother, i hope Allah shows you the light
peace
bez

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What amounts to sufficient evidence in traditional Islamic jurisprudence?

Whatever amounts to sufficient evidence in any rational and reasonable estimate - and that obviously does not include trial by ordeals/

Islam, and correct me if I am wrong, has relied on oath-taking as a means of proof.

Not actually a means of proof, and this is only used for husband v. wife or wife v. husband claims of adultery. If both sides take the oath, then no punishment is given. So it is not taken as a standard of proof. It is actually closer to the fact that in most western courts a witness must take an oath before testimony.

Furthermore in rape the line between rape and consentual sex is thin.

Absolutely. And that is an inherent problem in dealing with this crime. Ultimately it may come down to two conflicting testimonies, in which case there is not sufficient evidence to punish the accused, in any society.

Whether a woman wears revealing clothing or not, if she claims she was raped, then she will not be punished.

It often comes down to an interpretation by the jury of what is more likely.

Care to give a scenario?

That too is entirely culturally based so that even Western lawyers try to get the clothes the girl wore into evidence so that the jury can make a moral judgement about what sort of girl she was - whether she was likely to have consented or was just asking for it.

But the clothes alone will not be evidence to convict the accused. A woman wearing modest clothing could just have easily consented as a woman wearning revealing clothing. In both cases the acused can not be convicted on such weak evidence.

In Islamic courts, with no juries and no lawyers, these decisions will be made by a single male judge.

This comment seems to indicate to me that you did not read my response to 'a single male judge' in our previous discussion on the topic. Are you not aware of the function of the advisory council? Or the opinions of the Hanafi, Jariri and Dhahiri madha-hib on the issue of female judges?

You claim that he is always above his culture?

I never said that. I said culture has nothing to do with it because culture doesn't make it more likely that someone committed a crime or not.

I posted on the Sydney gang rapes a while ago. The mother of one of the boys, heavily veiled, said that the girls asked for it because they got into one of the boys' car. That is not cultural?

What does that have to do with punishing the accused? This case would be treated the same in every culture - the fact that a girl gets into a car neither proves nor disproves that the boy raped her, so we're back at square one. It may be more likely that she consented based on the circumstance, but if they can't prove that she was raped they can't punish the accused, and if she claims that she was raped they won't punish her regardless.

I did not say anything there about unreported rapes.

Then you're statement lacked any evidence to back it up. If we don't know the number of unreported rapes then how can we say that someone who rapes in the US is more likely to be punished than someone who rapes in a Muslim country?

Depends on the likely outcome either way don't you think?

How so?

Why bother debating?

If they think something is wrong then they usually will be vocal about it.

They are more likely to hide what their relatives might consider shameful and go shopping. Pious girls are more likely to be here because, after all, what else are they going to be doing?

?! So a pious girl cannot go shopping according to you?

 

[Tasneem]

If a person wears no hijab she can get raped.Period.
Alot of ppl.say i have a chance of getting raped
Thts not so!Allah tells us to cover as a protection....:?
I know nobody is going to tell me i walk around in the summer time(all hot)and it has no purposeffended: :rant: :heated: :rollseyes .okay!i wear hijab so i wont get molested and raped inshallah.Why would Allah tell us(woman)to cover if it has no benifet?!:? :rollseyes

 

[SalafiFemaleJih]

I feel If I go out widout my niqaab, hijab, abayah, and gloves then I feel there is no hayah left in me. I guess I take the opinion of the scholars who says its wajib to wear niqaab.

It protects ones honor.

Hijab or Niqaab Got nothng to do wid terrorism.

Wasalamualaikum warhatmulah.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

To illustrate the concept of hijab and modesty to our Non-Muslim members in a way they can more easily relate to, they can take a look at the following image:

Muslim women? No, these are Eastern Orthodox Christian Nuns. When people see Nuns or Muslim women dressed modestly, it send an important message across that these are women who guard their chastity and not subservient to the desires of men. It is about honor, modesty, dignity and devotion to God, as mentioned by previous members.