If Jesus Was God Then...

[Nicola]

[God still requires blood..and that blood comes from Jesus Christ of saviour..so we Christians believe in the blood of Christ for atonement of our sins we commit against God..
Jesus' blood is so powerful.]


Nicola,


Please go back and read my last post, Page 7 I think. "Each man willbe judegd according to his WORKS!"

Yes I know that is what the Koran says..I am not disagreeing that it tells us that fact...and that is what you believe.

These topics in this section are about comparative religions and that is what I am doing comparing my beliefs (Christianity) against Islamic belief.

What I am saying is that God required blood for our sins in the Bible why not now?

Unless you want to dismiss the fact that God required blood for sin and it was used throughout the OT? The Jews today are still waiting to build their new temple...as you probably know and also prophecies in the bible tell us that it will happen..So they can contintue with their blood sacrifies for their atonement of sin..in the Holy of Holyies. Then we are told it will be made un-clean because of the anti-christ.

There were two parties to the old covenant, God himself and the "children of Israel," or Nation of Israel if you will. The covenant of laws was a covenant of flesh, a covenant of behavior in the Earth, of blessings and curses. Most importantly, it was a covenant of blood atonements, i.e. sacrifices for Israel's sins.

http://godinisrael.com/term_cov.htm


If you have proof for me that God changed his mind...from requiring blood to

only required good works...I would be grateful.


How does the Koran explain why God changed from blood for atonement to works only?

For what reasons does Mohammed tell us, as to why God changed his mind.

Where abouts in the Koran does it mention about the Jews using blood atonement and this was wrong according to the Koran....

I cannot dismiss how many thousands of years history and Gods law away and now believe salvation is done just by works alone and then we do not know if we are saved or not until judgement day.


Because of one mans prophecy..(No offence intented) I would question anyone! When my eternal life depends on this very fact and I don't take it lighty.

 

[E'jaazi]

[If you have proof for me that God changed his mind...from requiring blood to
only required good works...I would be grateful.]

Nicola,


That is what it states in the Bible! I was not quoting the Qu'ran! It is in the book of Revelations. But I thought you knew that. If you can't find it, let me know. I'm going to get it for you anyway!

 

[Nicola]

[If you have proof for me that God changed his mind...from requiring blood to
only required good works...I would be grateful.]

Nicola,


That is what it states in the Bible! I was not quoting the Qu'ran! It is in the book of Revelations. But I thought you knew that. If you can't find it, let me know. I'm going to get it for you anyway!

Please answer all my questions in my post before,
else there is little point in this debate really.

then we can go on to the book of Revelations

 

[E'jaazi]

Nicola, here it is! And it says exactly what Muslims believe. The Qu'ran is a confirmation and now you have it and it cannot be denied. So do not try and twist this around. John is speaking about the things that will happen after the earth is destroyed, i.e. judgement day:




Revelation 20:12-14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[E'jaazi]

Here is part 2: And if you are a Christian, then you believe these to be the words that Jesus spoke to John!


Revelation 22:11-13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

 

[E'jaazi]

Look what the Bible & the Qu'ran say about the status of Jesus:


Acts Chapter 2 Verse 22


22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Surah 5 Ayat 75

The Messiah, Jesus, son of Maryum, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother (Mary) was a Siddiqqah. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah (God) does not eat.....

 

[sargon]

Well to me it makes more sense that we would be allowed to enter into heaven from our actions and good deeds rather than blood from an animal.

Can you eat the animal after you sacrifice it? Are there a certain amount of animals per person you should sacrifice? What about for the atonement of Chinese or African people's sins?

Not being sarcastic, just trying to understand

 

[Muslim Knight]

So we have established (even from the Bible!) that God judges people by deeds and He does not require blood to atone for sins. Sacrifices were just acts of obedience which He commanded us to do, and till today Muslims are the ones closest to the religion of Abraham because we still perpetuate the Qurban. Muslims even have a celebration for it called Eidul Adha.

Back to my previous arguments, how then does the people that have gone before Jesus atone for their sins without accepting Jesus as their Savior nor did Jesus die for them? Now that we know blood sacrifices they offered were just acts of worship of God (in the sense they were carrying out God's command).

For Christians, this will remain a dilemma. For us Muslims, we already have the answer, by God in His Revelation, Al-Qur'an.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

No Jesus didn't mean it like that not to help people in the open..it depends on the situation......he meant it like..don't go around telling other people what you have done...bragging about it, showing off. I gave so and so this and that..
if you give anything to the poor for instance do it in private...don't tell anyone at all, not friends family etc.. if you give to charity do it in private....only God should now...that kind of thing, that is the way we shall be rewarded...

Is that how it is in Islam also.

Absolutely. Allah will give shade on the day of judgement to 7 types of people, one of them being the one who gives charity in a way that not even his left hand knows what his right hand gave. Isn't that beautiful? Muslims are encouraged to do many good deeds in private, but not to withold just because someone is present. The key is your sincerity in your heart.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I am sorry you should feel that way about me, I feel that you are insulting me and my beliefs and my Holy Father.

I haven't come here to insult anyone ..but to understand the difference between our beliefs systems.
If this is your way of communicating in an adult fashion...I'd prefer this was our last contact.
thankyou.
God Bless

What....
I didn't mean it like that at all. I'm truly sorry. I don't remember saying anything about 'your Holy father' thogh. This is what Muslims belive and it is written in the Qur'an, but sorry if you interpretted it in a way that seemed harsh. You believe my religion is wrong, i don't think that's rude at all. But think of it this way. We worship God in pure tawheed. The word tawheed is hard to translate, but basically it means that you worship God in pure islamic monotheism. We do not ascribe any partners to Him, and we worship Him in unity. We do not need a middle man, we pray to Him directly. We ask of Him alone, we worship Him alone, we gloify Him alone. We cannot go to imams and ask them to beg for our forgiveness. This si what I menat.

 

[i_m_tipu]

we muslim beleive prophet moss (pbuh) and prophet jesus (pbuh) and prophet mohammad (pbuh) and so on which comming from one god

so in the Judgments day is not we more safer than u (non beleiver)???

Every prophet had some or vast miracle sign....

prophet mohammad (pbuh) had also that was the Quran...
the Quran is a miracle of miracle..
it does not matter that u not understand or Undermined it's miracle..
The quran shall amaged people till the world exits..as it is the miracle of miracle..

may Allaah mercy on us with opening our mind

​

 

[Nicola]

So we have established (even from the Bible!) that God judges people by deeds and He does not require blood to atone for sins.

Lev 4:1-3 - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering. And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

Lev 6:24-30 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy. The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation. Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place. But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brazen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water. All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy. And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire.

I could find you plenty of more...or you could just ask any Jewish person...

Please explain away these scriptures...

And please tell me why? and where abouts? in the Koran God did away with blood atonement for sin...
and when where they done away with according to the Koran..what year?
I've asked these questions before in these forums and yet no one as answered then...


why?

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

they were never required.
Can I aks you a question now please? What if a peasant sins? How does he get this blood offering?
-Peace

 

[Nicola]

they were never required.
Can I aks you a question now please? What if a peasant sins? How does he get this blood offering?
-Peace

They were never required in Islam...true

Does it mention anything in the Koran about them at all? Even if they weren't needed..to tell us why etc?

Because we now have Jesus ....so no blood scarifices were needed since Jesus offered his blood for us..

The blood scarifices were not done like your imagining...

If you read the above scriptures you will see that it was the high priest who offered the scarifice for the Jewish sins.

This sin offering was done up unto 70AD up until their Holy Temple got destroyed...and was only done by the High Priest...only this one person was allowed into the Holy of Holies..to be in the presence of God.

Prophecies in the Bible tell us that after the Jews become a nation again which happened in 1948 with the state of Israel ...they will then build their Holy Temple again, which will be 7 years before Jesus' returns..and they will continue with their scarifices when it is built.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Wouldn't a loving God have a one-to-one relationship with His servants?
My christian friend told me that when you make a prayer you have to go through Jesus (as). But technically don't you believe Jesus is God, so what difference does it make that you pray to God through Jesus or not, you believe they are both God, so isn't Jesus too holy to approach too?
The only time i remember a blood sacrifice being mentioned in the Qur'an was in the story of Prophet Ibraheem/Abraham (as) and his son, and that was only as a test. So when they proved they were true believers God let them sacrifice a lamb instead. But again, they did not sin and this was only as a show of faith. We believe that even the prophets were tested. Actually we believe the more faith you have the more you are tested, so the Prophets (peace be upon them all) were given the harshest tests. Prophet Ayyub (Job) with his constant illnesses, Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) spent many years in prison for no crime, Jesus was almost crucified and was sent to the most difficult of nations, Prophet Muhammad was evicted form his home, abused verbally and physically, his family members died, his daughters divorced, several attempts were made on his noble life and his every living day was a struggle. He had not even a single penny when he died(peace and blessings upon them all!). The sacrifices that we believe in are more than rituals. They are true tests of faith. We believe that repentance and good deeds wipe away sins.
I started reading the bible a few years ago after my christian friend gave it to me. I have to tell you, it was quite upsetting. Why are the prophets shown in such a negative light?
-Peace

 

[Nicola]

Wouldn't a loving God have a one-to-one relationship with His servants?

We aren't his servants...we are his Children..
The relationship with the Father is a very personal one...1-1
Because we believe Jesus died for our sins...and used his blood to atone for our sins..we are going through Jesus..our belief is his blood saved us...so now we pray to our Father..
Our prayers are personal..we can pray to Jesus or God..

We don't ask Jesus if we can pray to God...

hope you can understand what I am meaning.


They are personal prayers because Jesus tells us God hates repetative pray and will not listen to it.

I started reading the bible a few years ago after my christian friend gave it to me. I have to tell you, it was quite upsetting. Why are the prophets shown in such a negative light?

bad light how do you mean?

Jesus mentions about how the prophets where badly treated by their own people, when prophets warned the Jews what was going to befall them..if they didn't change their ways and repent..the people didn't like the messages so the prophets where almost always badly abused some how.


do you mean like that?

 

[abdul Majid]

which bible are we talking about??? there are many

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

no.... like they said Prophet Noah was naked and drunk in a tent. I don't think God would choose such a person as a prophet. It said alot of bad things about prophets. It also said Abraham wrestled with God... now isn't that degrading God?

 

[Nicola]

which bible are we talking about??? there are many

It depends how good your comprehenstion is as to which text you use.
I personally don't like the KJV because I don't use English like that. Though my best friend only uses that one..

I find the NIV more comfortable for my English.

The meanings are the same in all Bibles, pretty much like different interpations of the Koran.

Different words same meanings.

Which interpation of the Koran do you study....
or do you read Arabic?

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

but different sects have different bibles. For example, the catholic bible is very much different to the protestant bible. All Muslims have one Qur'an. It remains the smae in arabic, that can never be changed. However, it is very hard to completely and accurately translate one langauge to another. So different scholars use different english words to describe one arabic word. You see? It's just a translation of the meaning. But the arabic Qur'an can never be changed. Allah Ta'ala has promised to keep it safe till the day of judgement. Not one dot has been changed since the beginning.