If Jesus Was God Then...

[abdul Majid]

It depends how good your comprehenstion is as to which text you use.
I personally don't like the KJV because I don't use English like that. Though my best friend only uses that one..

I find the NIV more comfortable for my English.

The meanings are the same in all Bibles, pretty much like different interpations of the Koran.

Different words same meanings.

Which interpation of the Koran do you study....
or do you read Arabic?

actually there not, theres only one VERSION of the quran, but many of the bible....

remember, VERSIONS are different from TRANSLATIONS..

BY THE WAY DO YOU READ THE SRV

 

[Nicola]

no.... like they said Prophet Noah was naked and drunk in a tent. I don't think God would choose such a person as a prophet. It said alot of bad things about prophets. It also said Abraham wrestled with God... now isn't that degrading God?

ok I understand what you mean now..

Well yes I expect it was wrong for Noah to be in that state... the point of the story I believe was about his sons....God saw the goodness and kindness of the two sons but not Ham...but it is Hams son Canaan who is cured..
"sins of the father" I expect.

God said Noah was a preacher of righteousness so God must have thought very highly of him..
Noahs heart must have been good and kind.



According to the Bible getting drunk is wrong and still is today for Chrisitans...but drinking alcohol was not forbidden and isn't today...for even Jesus turned water into wine..
Though I can't stand the stuff...lol

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

uh.... so you think the prophet of a nation would get drunk and naked in a tent?
The Qur'an says no such thing of Prophets. All Prophets are equal to Muslims, and we love and respect them and would never say anything negative about them. It's funny how nothing negative is said of Jesus. I belivee the prophets are degraded just to make Jesus look perfect and to portray him as god-like. Yes Jesus was perfect, i don't think other prophets need to be degraded just to achieve that point. We love Jesus (peace be upon him) dearly and also eagerly await his return. I don't understand why you take jews as closer allies just because they believe in the old testament, when we like you love and respect Jesus with all our heart. I think you should read chapter 3 'Ali Imran'. There are some beautiful words about Mary (peace be upon her) and Jesus (peace be upon him) in that chapter, aswell as through out the Qur'an. By the way, it's worth mentioning that Prophets Muhammad and Jesus are mentioned by name 25 times each.
-Peace

 

[Nicola]

actually there not, theres only one VERSION of the quran, but many of the bible....

remember, VERSIONS are different from TRANSLATIONS..

BY THE WAY DO YOU READ THE SRV

So tell me the different versions of the bible please


I have a number of Bibles and study Bibles..
I also use e-sword which is avaliable downloaded on-line for free...so I can compare different bibles, commentary, maps etc...

No I don't like the SRV either...my church recommends this version or the KJV.
I'm more a basic kind of person....lol and will stick with my NIV


though I do compare with the KJV through e-sword with others.

 

[abdul Majid]

No I don't like the SRV either...my church recommends this version or the KJV.

why? do they recomend the kjv? i heard the srv is the oldest and therefore the nearer to the true bible??

 

[Muslim Knight]

I don't agree...the messages are different...for instance Jesus tells us we are (Christians) guaranteed salvation...

[Yusufali 5:18] (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

The Quran asks the Christians, if you are guaranteed salvation and Paradise, why does then God punishes you still for your sins? Look around the world and observe all the calamities that have befallen men, and look and what will happen next.

I understand in Islam you will know on Judgement day if you are saved or not?

We are saved only by God's Mercy. To obtain that Mercy we are told to worship Him alone, obey His commands, do good works and avoid evil deeds.

The Spirit Jesus is talking about is the Holy Spirit when you ask and recieve this gift...Your life actually changes, you begin to start being lead by the Holy Spirit in as many parts of your life that you will allow.
If you'll allow it to that is...alot of Christians resist certain areas of their lives...that is why they still do bad or wrong things.....The Holy Spirit will stop you sinning...if you will allow it to.
This is how you are born again...When you hear of 'Born Again Christians'...this is what Jesus was talking about...to be 'born again'..
your old self dies..your bad old ways go.... You feel different ,you become different..and it a wonderful feeling inside...and it's how God wishes us to become and live.

What do you say about ex-Christians who embraced Islam, became Muslims and eventually, better persons? What can you say about those who have found peace in Allah? Has the Holy Spirit abandoned them? What about me? I am still alive, by His grace, and I live by His grace (that without it I am already dead) is it possible for the Holy Spirit to have abandon me because I am a Muslim (submitting to the Will of God)?

My conviction and Allah's Grace will stop me from sinning. In Islam we are taught that God is Most Loving (Al-Wadood). Thinking of Him (who loved me dearly and has kept me alive so far) is enough to apprehend any thought of sinning against Him.

I have known Muslims who behave badly, drinking and sleeping around. They are Muslims, but they neglect much of the Islamic teachings. But I have also known Muslims who felt Islamic laws as outdated and stringent so they left Islam and converted to Christianity in order to enjoy life more.They claim the Holy Spirit guards them against sin. So they party around, go back home at wee hours of the morning, drunk and doing nonsensical things. Instead of praying to God five times a day as a Muslim, now they go see Him only on weekends. How can you claim to love God so much and go see your Loved One only once a week?

Malay Muslims where I lived, here in Malaysia, are leaving Islam in order to enjoy life instead of thinking about more orderly, peaceful life that guarantees good character and conduct. Do you seriously think it's fair to award sinners with Paradise (when they claim to have been saved by the sacrifice of one person) compared to pious people who worship only God, do good works throughout their life and repent everytime for their failings?

How do you think we are going to solve our problems in life then? Abortion? Alcoholism? AIDS?

 

[E'jaazi]

I could find you plenty of more...or you could just ask any Jewish person...

Please explain away these scriptures...

And please tell me why? and where abouts? in the Koran God did away with blood atonement for sin...
and when where they done away with according to the Koran..what year?
I've asked these questions before in these forums and yet no one as answered then...


why?

I see that you had no response to the verses of the bible that I posted for you, where it clearly states that every man will be judged according to his works. As I stated, if you are a Christian, you believe the last verses I quoted to be Jesus speaking directly to John. But instead, you posted a few verses from the OT that really have nothing to do with Judgement day. The ones I posted, do. And none of them mention blood atonement or having Jesus as your personal saviour. As for you asking about the Qu'ran doing away with blood atonement, I also posted a passage from the Qu'ran about that and you have chosen to ignore it. It is obvious, that if you did read my post, you were surprised and don't know what to say. You probably didn't even know about those passages. But the ones I quoted you were very clear.
It is also obvious that instead of addressing those passages, you are simply going to qoute other passages from the bible, that not only do not prove me wrong, but rather, do no more than contradict other passages. I have proven my point and shown you in your own book how man is to be judged. All I can say to you know is that I hope Allah will guide you to the plain and simple truth.

 

[Nicola]

I see that you had no response to the verses of the bible that I posted for you, where it clearly states that every man will be judged according to his works. As I stated, if you are a Christian, you believe the last verses I quoted to be Jesus speaking directly to John. But instead, you posted a few verses from the OT that really have nothing to do with Judgement day. The ones I posted, do. ANd none of them mention blood atonement of having Jesus as your personal saviour. AS for you asking about the Qu'ran doing away with blood atonement, I also posted a passage from the Qu'ran about that and you have chosen to ignore it. It is obvious that if you did read my post, you were surprised and don't know what to say. You probably didn't even know about those passages. But the ones I quoted you were very clear.
It is also obvious that instead of addressing those passages, you are simply going to qoute other passages from the bible, that not only do not prove me wrong, but rather, do no more than contradict other passages. I have proven my point and shown you in your own book how man is to be judged. All I can say to you know is that I hope Allah will guide you to the plain and simple truth.

Firstly I would like to ask you, when you write a personal letter to someone you actually know...do you have to repeat everytime who you are? every single detail about yourself...or do persume that, that person will know about you and your history together already?


Yes I agree that Jesus was talking through John in revelation but not to John personaly the letters where not for John nor I...and now I will explain who the book of revelations was intended for.... Jesus is talking in revelations to his people.....they are already believers Christians...they already knew they needed Jesus as their saviours for their sins..which came from his blood.

Why would Jesus need to repeat they needed his salvation..(his blood) when they had already accepted it...you only need to accept it once...

Revelations was strictly written for those 7 churches mentioned...some working well and other where not...Jesus is telling them what they are doing wrong and praising their good works also.

It wasn't written for you or me or joe bloggs personaly...though now we do have those letters..and it is guidance for Christians only, who firstly believe in Jesus it isn't for non-believers because they haven't firstly done what Jesus told them.....

Some Christians do, do good works...those who do not...and just expect Jesus to pass them into heaven on a free pass...why those are up to Jesus to Judge

See a true Chrisitan will want to do good works to glorify our Holy Father...and also the Holy Spirit changes our very nature...
Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them...are a totaly different Christian all together...It would be like calling someone a Muslim who commits sins repeatedly...someone who drinks,smokes etc and does not submit to Allah.


The OT is very important to Christians or should be...It gives an account of God and his laws etc...God never changes ever...

also many prophecies from the OT still need to be fullfilled. So God as not done away with anything..


Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not

I did read your earlier post...it was your attitude I choose to ignore.


There is no contradiction within revelation.......

only misunderstanding

 

[E'jaazi]

Nice try, but what you have written is only your opinion. It says what it says and it is very clear. Also, it was not meant for Christians, because Jesus clearly says in the NT that he has only come for who? The Lost House of Israel. Also, if you read the verse it also clearly says 'every man'. The only way you could possibly prove to anyone that what was meant was Christians or those who accepted Jesus, is to give a clear definition of the original hebrew wording, which would contain a more definitive meaning. You can't do that, so we have to take the english at its word. Yet in still, you will reject the Qu'ran which does have the original writings and calls you to worship the ONE true Lord. The same Lord Jesus worshipped and has instructed you to worship. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a fact is a fact.

 

[E'jaazi]

I did read your earlier post...it was your attitude I choose to ignore.

By the way, I did, nor do I now, have an attitude. You are one of the most respectful Christians on the forum. I simply put down the truth. And when you do, being ignored is the usual response. The verse I quoted from Acts, was supposedly written by the Apostles, who wrote that Jesus was a man. This coincides with our beliefs. Peace be unto you!

 

[Nicola]

The Qur'an says no such thing of Prophets. All Prophets are equal to Muslims, and we love and respect them and would never say anything negative about them. It's funny how nothing negative is said of Jesus. I belivee the prophets are degraded just to make Jesus look perfect and to portray him as god-like. Yes Jesus was perfect, i don't think other prophets need to be degraded just to achieve that point. We love Jesus (peace be upon him) dearly and also eagerly await his return. I don't understand why you take jews as closer allies just because they believe in the old testament, when we like you love and respect Jesus with all our heart. I think you should read chapter 3 'Ali Imran'. There are some beautiful words about Mary (peace be upon her) and Jesus (peace be upon him) in that chapter, aswell as through out the Qur'an. By the way, it's worth mentioning that Prophets Muhammad and Jesus are mentioned by name 25 times each.
-Peace

uh.... so you think the prophet of a nation would get drunk and naked in a tent?

I believe the bible yes...so what is written I accept...
I am not saying his behaviour was right...remember the days of Noah where really evil times...like what Jesus tells us...before he returns it will be like the days of Noah.


Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

I don't agree that the prophets where made to look bad, so has to make Jesus look a perfect person...firstly because the OT was written way before Jesus' time...Jesus even used to quote the OT offen...so it was not changed in anyway.
Do you think the Jews would change their Torah to help Jesus' message in anyway?
Yes Jesus was perfect in everyway and still is, it is impossible for Jesus to sin..but the rest of the prophets did sin..

Many Chrisitans do not take Jews as friends...and Chrisitans Muslims.
We should love everyone the same.

but what does God say about this..
Genesis
Chapter 12
1 The LORD said to Abram: "Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your father's house to a land that I will show you".
2 "I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you".

Many Jews do believe in Jesus...Messanic Jews...though not enough yet..but they will understand one day when their veil has been removed who Jesus actually is.

We as Chrisitans look on Jesus as someone different to how Muslims see him, We believe he is God who came down in human form to save us, no one on earth could have done it, ony God because he is perfect...So Jesus for us is placed higher than any prophet.

Could you tell me please...from what I have heard and read, I understand that Muslims except the book of revelation as true...though Jesus gives us a different account of his return to the Islamic belief of his return..

Do Muslims just except the parts of the book of revelation that fits in with their belief from the Koran? and the rest is untrue according to Islam?

God Bless

 

[Muslim Knight]

Yes I agree that Jesus was talking through John in revelation but not to John personaly the letters where not for John nor I...and now I will explain who the book of revelations was intended for.... Jesus is talking in revelations to his people.....they are already believers Christians...they already knew they needed Jesus as their saviours for their sins..which came from his blood.

Nowhere in the Bible did it mention them as Christians nor if they knew they need Jesus as savior whose blood sacrifice they needed to atone for sins. If you say they were his disciples/followers I would have agreed.

Why would Jesus need to repeat they needed his salvation..(his blood) when they had already accepted it...you only need to accept it once...

As an omnipotent God, he would have known future generations would need the confirmation, especially in case of needing to accept someone who is being sacrificed so that he can carry the burden of sin. It is not small matter you can trifle with. This is regarding one person's life! Accounts of the Bible clearly states that Jesus did not know he is being sacrificed for the sins nor the disciples did claim so.

Some Christians do, do good works...those who do not...and just expect Jesus to pass them into heaven on a free pass...why those are up to Jesus to Judge

If you claim to be free of sins (because Jesus has died for your sins) and that you are guaranteed Paradise, then why bother with Judgment? It would only concern people who have never accepted Jesus as savior, like us Muslims and those pious people who went before Jesus. It would not concern "some Christians do good works and those who do not..." because their sins are already forgiven (according to you).

See a true Chrisitan will want to do good works to glorify our Holy Father...and also the Holy Spirit changes our very nature...
Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them...are a totaly different Christian all together...It would be like calling someone a Muslim who commits sins repeatedly...someone who drinks,smokes etc and does not submit to Allah.

So you admit pious Muslims have Holy Spirit inside them? Even without accepting Jesus as Savior? Horraayy! Salvation only with God and not with Jesus! Rejoice Muslims!

 

[sargon]

If God wanted to forgive sins why not just do away with judgement day? Why go through all these things in a human body?

 

[E'jaazi]

Do Muslims just except the parts of the book of revelation that fits in with their belief from the Koran? and the rest is untrue according to Islam?

God Bless

The Qu'ran was sent down as a confirmation of what was sent down before it. But the bible has been corrupted and there is no proof of what was written in it before. (except for the dead sea scrolls, which they don't want people to read). Therefore, what is confirmed in the Qu'ran is the truth from our Lord. The basic message of monotheism is the same.

 

[Nicola]

Nice try, but what you have written is only your opinion. It says what it says and it is very clear. Also, it was not meant for Christians, because Jesus clearly says in the NT that he has only come for who? The Lost House of Isreal. Also, if you read the verse it also clearly says 'every man'. The only way you could possibly prove to anyone that what was meant was Christians or those who accepted Jesus, is to give a clear definition of the original hebrew wording, which would contain a more definitive meaning. You can't do that, so we have to take the english at its word. Yet in still, you will reject the Qu'ran which does have the original writings and calls you to worship the ONE true Lord. The same Lord Jesus worshipped and has instructed you to worship. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a fact is a fact.

It isn't just my opinion but the opinion of learnt Biblical scholars throughout the centaries...who have studied the word of God fully...If your going to study the letters in the book of Revelation to would need to know the History of these churches..you cannot just read my few paragraphs on this subject and think you know everything.

Jesus didn't just come just for Israel...yes they where first to be offered salvation and many Jews still do come to Jesus.

But this is what Jesus tells us in.

John 10: 1-17
Joh 10:1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Joh 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Joh 10:13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Joh 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.


I hope you do some studying on these verses...because they are so very important..

This is why Christians will not follow Islam because it is like the strangers voice Jesus tells us about in these scriptures above..
It teaches us nothing of what Jesus did from:
and their are so many differences on all these subjects.
Scriptures
the Fatherhood of God
the Trinity
Sin
Salvations
the Death of Jesus
the deity of Jesus.

All these subjects are vast and they all differ greatly from Christianity and what Jesus told us.


You haven't proved any fact at all..
We Christians do worship only one God..and know him intimatly

 

[E'jaazi]

[Jesus didn't just come just for Israel...yes they where first to be offered salvation and many Jews still do come to Jesus.]



How can you say that, when Jesus says in the Bible, "I have come only for the Lost House of Israel."

 

[Nicola]

By the way, I did, nor do I now, have an attitude. You are one of the most respectful Christians on the forum. I simply put down the truth. And when you do, being ignored is the usual response. The verse I quoted from Acts, was supposedly written by the Apostles, who wrote that Jesus was a man. This coincides with our beliefs. Peace be unto you!

I think you told me to try and twist Gods words....
I am not twisting anything...I am learning...I study with the Holy Spirit guiding me. I don't just make things up as I go along..
For Jesus tells us to ask and it shall be given.


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

Of course Jesus came down as a man...he was born has a baby like you and I.

What is your point exactly...no one is disputing that Jesus was made of skin and bone while on this earth...Now he sits on the right hand side of the Father.

No human could have paid the price of our sins...only Jesus because he was sinless unlike every other human...like the sinless unblemished oxen,sheep etc..God required for sin atonement..these things need to be pure.

So the parts of the NT and the OT that coincides with the Koran is true...and the rest is not...I see.

Please tell me and give me evidence other than the Koran and any Islamic sites..

When did all this tampering happen was it before or after Muhammad died?
Who changed the bible?
Where was it done? In which country?
What parts of the text were changed?
How was it done?
Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?

then I can study your findings
thanks

 

[Nicola]

[Jesus didn't just come just for Israel...yes they where first to be offered salvation and many Jews still do come to Jesus.]



How can you say that, when Jesus says in the Bible, "I have come only for the Lost House of Israel."

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd


Tell me why did Jesus tell a gentil woman ...Samaritan Woman who Jews did not associate with ...

John 4: 7:15
Joh 4:7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give me a drink."
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.)
Joh 4:9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?" (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."
Joh 4:11 The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water?
Joh 4:12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock."
Joh 4:13 Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,
Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty forever. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." Joh 4:15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water."


Please explain to me why Jesus offered this woman non-Jew eternal life?

and also tell me ...who are Jesus' other sheep?

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I believe the bible yes...so what is written I accept...
I am not saying his behaviour was right...remember the days of Noah where really evil times...like what Jesus tells us...before he returns it will be like the days of Noah.


Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

I don't agree that the prophets where made to look bad, so has to make Jesus look a perfect person...firstly because the OT was written way before Jesus' time...Jesus even used to quote the OT offen...so it was not changed in anyway.
Do you think the Jews would change their Torah to help Jesus' message in anyway?
Yes Jesus was perfect in everyway and still is, it is impossible for Jesus to sin..but the rest of the prophets did sin..

Many Chrisitans do not take Jews as friends...and Chrisitans Muslims.
We should love everyone the same.

but what does God say about this..
Genesis
Chapter 12
1 The LORD said to Abram: "Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your father's house to a land that I will show you".
2 "I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you".

Many Jews do believe in Jesus...Messanic Jews...though not enough yet..but they will understand one day when their veil has been removed who Jesus actually is.

We as Chrisitans look on Jesus as someone different to how Muslims see him, We believe he is God who came down in human form to save us, no one on earth could have done it, ony God because he is perfect...So Jesus for us is placed higher than any prophet.

Could you tell me please...from what I have heard and read, I understand that Muslims except the book of revelation as true...though Jesus gives us a different account of his return to the Islamic belief of his return..

Do Muslims just except the parts of the book of revelation that fits in with their belief from the Koran? and the rest is untrue according to Islam?

God Bless

My answer to all of this is the bible was changed, that's why there are so many versions. Not the same as translations either. The new testament though is not even the words of jesus, it's the words of his follows. Have you read the book of barnabus?

 

[E'jaazi]

When did all this tampering happen was it before or after Muhammad died?
Who changed the bible?
Where was it done? In which country?
What parts of the text were changed?
How was it done?
Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?

then I can study your findings
thanks

I thought that this was common knowledge. I'll look up the info for you, but the short answer to your question and in small part is 'The Nicene Council.' That is an historical fact and not a Islamic or Christian fact. I'll be back, God Willing, a little later.