Cartoon row author rewrites Qur'an!

[al-basit]

Denmark is not a Muslim country and has a well-developed framework for political discourse. You cannot seriously expect Islam to be given special status in this country, a status it naturally has in Muslim countries.

But surely we can expect better treatment of Islam than that? I mean this never happens in other religions so why should it happen in Islam? What happened to equality?

 

[i_m_tipu]

It is obvious to me that Islam is all encompassing. It is thus very much political in nature as well. You cannot expect Islam to stay outside or above the general struggle between political ideologies. Since Islam is political it can be criticized just like any other ideology, to expect others to spare it simply because it also has religious significance is unrealistic and unreasonable.

Perhaps Islam is above politics in homogenous Muslim countries, but it is not in the West and cannot be expected to be so. Islam is political and thus part of the political discussion and discourse in our countries. Politics is often mean and harsh, but it does not allow for violence and intimidation. It does however allow for criticism and ridicule. The idea that Islam should be spared, simply because it's followers might resort to violence is giving into fear and blackmail.

Denmark is not a Muslim country and has a well-developed framework for political discourse. You cannot seriously expect Islam to be given special status in this country, a status it naturally has in Muslim countries.

understanding problem read carefully

Suggesting u to edit ur article
&
Use find and replace progs
in the find box type Islam
in the replace box type Muslim

Muslim may cursed Islam not

peace

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Salaam

Thats taking a bit far, I'll only shed blood in Jihad and anyother life threating situation.

Ameen brother thumma ameen

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

But surely we can expect better treatment of Islam than that? I mean this never happens in other religions so why should it happen in Islam? What happened to equality?

The point is that Islam is a political ideology as well as a religion. It's far more all-encompassing than any other religion. Therefore, it should be open to criticism, as are all other totalising systems of belief.

Suggesting u to edit ur article
&
Use find and replace progs
in the find box type Islam
in the replace box type Muslim

It looks like you haven't understood KAding's point. He was talking about the whole Islamic system, not just individual Muslims.

Peace

 

[HeiGou]

I give u some very simple example around myself

There r some foreign company in our country use Saturday as a holiday
how it is Happening in Muslim country while 99% worker is Muslim

That does seem strange. Why Saturday unless they are Jewish?

There r lot of Ngo and club in our country got huge donation from foreign
and there activity is clearly show how Desperate these people r in order to move us in a such culture what strictly forbidden in Islam

No doubt there are a lot of people working for human rights and women's issues. Is that what you mean? What sort of thing do you think they are working for that is strictly forbidden in Islam? The Grameen Bank?

There r some political leader, other so called Intellectual public in our country act like a spy for the west

I take it that means they do not think Islam in the answer. If that is their view why do you feel the need to demonise them and their views by accusing them of acting like spies for the West?

Finally if u hear properly the voice of Western leader in case of Islam or Muslim u wont find a single one who don't want reforming Islam

I doubt there is a single Muslim here who does not want reform in the Muslim world as well. So what?

 

[KAding]

But surely we can expect better treatment of Islam than that? I mean this never happens in other religions so why should it happen in Islam?

I disagree. It has happened to Christianity. Denmark is a deeply secular society and if it was anything like the Netherlands then the 60s and 70s were full with attacks against Christian believes and institutions.

Even now what is sacred to Christians in our societies is not safe from ridicule. Heck, think of something like Monty Pythons 'Life of Brian' or the feminist and gay rights movement. Not all is tasteful either, like at my local exhibition centre which had an 'art piece' which was a christian cross in the shape of a penis. At a recent exhibition in the US a Christian cross was put in a jar with urine.

True, Christianity is a lot less in the picture nowadays, but thats because the battle of ideas has been fought. And in Western Europe at least secularism largely won. Sure, there should be a degree of respect, but do realize that what is sacred to you might not be sacred to others in different cultures half a world away. Western European secular values are simply different from Islamic values. That plus the fact that Islam is deeply political and there is conflict going on makes Islam a hot issue in the West. It really does not get treated differently from other ideologies, but I will agree that it is certainly in the spotlight.

It does seem to me though that Christians react differently to being ridiculed. Perhaps someone here (Christian or Muslim) can say something about the following article. I have a feeling it does not accurately portray Islam, it's hard for me to tell, but it would explain the different responses from Muslim and Christians:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/fresh_words/2006/020806.html

Being Mocked: The Essence of Christ’s Work, Not Muhammad’s

February 8, 2006

What we saw this past week in the Islamic demonstrations over the Danish cartoons of Muhammad was another vivid depiction of the difference between Muhammad and Christ, and what it means to follow each. Not all Muslims approve the violence. But a deep lesson remains: The work of Muhammad is based on being honored and the work of Christ is based on being insulted. This produces two very different reactions to mockery.

If Christ had not been insulted, there would be no salvation. This was his saving work: to be insulted and die to rescue sinners from the wrath of God. Already in the Psalms the path of mockery was promised: “All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads” (Psalm 22:7). “He was despised and rejected by men . . . as one from whom men hide their faces . . . and we esteemed him not” (Isaiah 53:3).

When it actually happened it was worse than expected. “They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head. . . . And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, ‘Hail, King of the Jews!’ And they spit on him” (Matthew 27:28-30). His response to all this was patient endurance. This was the work he came to do. “Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7).

This was not true of Muhammad. And Muslims do not believe it is true of Jesus. Most Muslims have been taught that Jesus was not crucified. One Sunni Muslim writes, “Muslims believe that Allah saved the Messiah from the ignominy of crucifixion.”1 Another adds, “We honor [Jesus] more than you [Christians] do. . . . We refuse to believe that God would permit him to suffer death on the cross.”2 An essential Muslim impulse is to avoid the “ignominy” of the cross.

That’s the most basic difference between Christ and Muhammad and between a Muslim and a follower of Christ. For Christ, enduring the mockery of the cross was the essence of his mission. And for a true follower of Christ enduring suffering patiently for the glory of Christ is the essence of obedience. “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account” (Matthew 5:11). During his life on earth Jesus was called a bastard (John 8:41), a drunkard (Matthew 11:19), a blasphemer (Matthew 26:65), a devil (Matthew 10:25); and he promised his followers the same: “If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household” (Matthew 10:25).

The caricature and mockery of Christ has continued to this day. Martin Scorsese portrayed Jesus in The Last Temptation of Christ as wracked with doubt and beset with sexual lust. Andres Serrano was funded by the National Endowment for the Arts to portray Jesus on a cross sunk in a bottle of urine. The Da Vinci Code portrays Jesus as a mere mortal who married and fathered children.

How should his followers respond? On the one hand, we are grieved and angered. On the other hand, we identify with Christ, and embrace his suffering, and rejoice in our afflictions, and say with the apostle Paul that vengeance belongs to the Lord, let us love our enemies and win them with the gospel. If Christ did his work by being insulted, we must do ours likewise.

When Muhammad was portrayed in twelve cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, the uproar across the Muslim world was intense and sometimes violent. Flags were burned, embassies were torched, and at least one Christian church was stoned. The cartoonists went into hiding in fear for their lives, like Salman Rushdie before them. What does this mean?

It means that a religion with no insulted Savior will not endure insults to win the scoffers. It means that this religion is destined to bear the impossible load of upholding the honor of one who did not die and rise again to make that possible. It means that Jesus Christ is still the only hope of peace with God and peace with man. And it means that his followers must be willing to “share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death” (Philippians 3:10).

What happened to equality?

I don't agree ideologies or religions are 'equal'. It is all in the eye of the beholder. Either you agree with them or you don't. For one man Islam is the absolute truth, for another it is nonsense. Communism is not equal to liberalism and similarly Christianity is not equal to, say, Buddhism. You can debate about the merrits of each ideology though.

If you mean equal in a legal sense then I do not see the problem. In Denmark Islam and Christianity are equal before the law. You would not be punished if you made a nasty cartoon insulting Christians for example. Things get trickier if you start insulting people based on natural attributes, like ethnicity or race. But Islam is not a race, so I don't see how that would apply.

 

[KAding]

understanding problem read carefully

Suggesting u to edit ur article
&
Use find and replace progs
in the find box type Islam
in the replace box type Muslim

Muslim may cursed Islam not

peace

Agreed, one should be careful not to mix the two.

But, for me Islam is not beyond criticism. If we follow this logic, you cannot criticize atheism, only atheists. You cannot criticize communism, only communists. And what about Christianity. Islam after all rejects the trinity or that Jezus is the son of God. This is not mere criticism of 'Christians', no it is a criticism of the core ideas on Christianity.

Btw, I know you said 'cursed', not 'criticized'. But I simply do not agree those cartoons were cursing, just like I don't agree this guy writing a new version of the Holy Qu'ran is cursing. Sorry, I just don't see it that way.

Again, I apologize if this offends you, I have no desire to offend anyone. But to say, that in a country with a tiny muslim minority, Islam cannot be cursed is not something I agree with.

 

[------]

But, for me Islam is not beyond criticism.

So you've got nothing better to do? LOL :giggling:

 

[DaSangarTalib]

Islam is PERFECT!!!

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

LET me just make it clear.

Allah is flawless
Islam as a religion is flawless
Muhammad (saws) has shown the best example WHICH IF U SAW ACTED OUT NONE CAN DENY IT IS INDEED THE BEST EXAMPLE!! (read hadith sahih bukhari/muslim if u dont believe me)

People are flawed
They dont follow islam properly
They dont follow the prophet (saws) properly

ALLAH AND ISLAM IS PERFECT!!!!! AS BRO ABOVE ME STATED!!!

ALLAHU AKBAR

 

[DaSangarTalib]

^^^very true bro

ALLAHU AKBAR!!

 

[------]

Yh but sum peepz dnt get dt lyk :rollseyes

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

LET me just make it clear.

Allah is flawless
Islam as a religion is flawless
Muhammad (saws) has shown the best example WHICH IF U SAW ACTED OUT NONE CAN DENY IT IS INDEED THE BEST EXAMPLE!! (read hadith sahih bukhari/muslim if u dont believe me)

People are flawed
They dont follow islam properly
They dont follow the prophet (saws) properly

ALLAH AND ISLAM IS PERFECT!!!!! AS BRO ABOVE ME STATED!!!

ALLAHU AKBAR

Just because you have decided to take an uncritical attitude towards your chosen belief-system does not mean that that system should be above criticism.

Peace

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


Just because you have decided to take an uncritical attitude towards your chosen belief-system does not mean that that system should be above criticism.

Peace

i c, so plz open my eyes, state a flaw in the system , easy thing right? just one flaw!

PS: DONT QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

eace: peace man

 

[------]

Yep. U give us one flaw in Islam (if you can find one that is!)

They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His lightm though the unbeliever are averse."

Qur'an, Surah Tawbah, Verse 32

Subhanallah

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Falsehood diminishes at the presence of truth!!!! ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!

 

[HeiGou]

Yep. U give us one flaw in Islam (if you can find one that is!)

Well it is like contradictions - presumably Muslims think that what non-Muslims might see as flaws are actually good things. For instance it has always seemed odd to me that adultery is treated more harshly in Islam than murder. As are most hudud crimes as far as I know. You must be put to death for adultery but if you are wealthy you have the option of diya for murder. Now I don't see the reason for this, but I doubt you see it as a flaw. So perhaps we can get some productive argument out of this silly thread if I ask you what you understand the wisdom behind this is?

 

[HeiGou]

Falsehood dies at the presence of truth!!!! ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!

Indeed. Especially if the battleground is even and Falsehood does not have a monopoly on executioners.

 

[------]

See this link HeiGou.

The Punishment System in Islam

Click Here

 

[HeiGou]

See this link HeiGou.

The Punishment System in Islam

So I have seen that link. I notice it says

1. Hadud : This punishment is the right of Allah (swt), and it is a retribution for seven different crimes, which no-one can forgive. These are

a) Fornication or adultery (zina) : The punishment is 100 lashes for fornication (i.e. pre-marital sex) or stoning to death for adultery (where the fornicator/s is/are married).

b) False Accusation (qadhf) : Where a false charge of adultery is insinuated against a man or woman. The punishment is 80 lashes.

c) Theft (sariqa) : Where theft is the crime. The punishment is cutting off of the hand, provided seven conditions are fulfilled concerning the circumstances of the crime.

d) Consumption of Intoxicants (khamr) : Where the crime is for example drinking wine. The punishment is 80 lashes.

e) Rebellion against the state (al-baghi) : Where individuals or groups revolt against the authority of the state, e.g. motivation of division of the Ummah. The punishment is death.

f) Apostasy (al-irtidad) : Where a Muslim changes his or her belief, and refuses to return after advice is given. The punishment is death.

g) Highway Robbery (hiraba) : Where robbers attack passers by on the open highways. The punishment is cutting off the hand and foot on opposite sides, or death if the crime led to the death of the victim.

In these issues, if someone is proven to be guilty of the crime and all the conditions for the punishment are fulfilled, there is no leniency or pardon for the perpetrator. Muhammad (saw) said, "By Allah, if Fatimah the daughter of Muhammad stole, I would cut her hand."​

But nowhere do I see anything that explains to me why these seven crimes are so much worse than murder that they cannot be forgiven for money but murder can. Isn't killing one person the same as killing the entire world? Doesn't, as this article says, the blood of a Muslim outweigh the Kaba? If so why isn't taking it more harshly punished than adultery?