NO means NO

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I am curious, did you even read your first post?
When did it say you needed 4 male witnesses? What are you going on about?
Allow me to quote some parts then...
"So what I’m trying to say is that, contrary to what some Westerners claim, the issue is not just “bring four witnesses or set the accused free”."No where did it say that 4 male witnesses were needed.
"and anyone who is forced to do something is not guilty of sin."
That pretty much sums it up.
 
Cheb said:
Oh look I found a crime stat of which Saudi Arabia is top in. :? :rollseyes

Unpaid diplomatic parking fines
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Now compare this with the statistics on rape. First of all, the Saudis are in the West and so have a proper system of crime reporting - that is, if not a competent one at least the same one that Western rape figures are reported in. Second there is no bias that can be detected here: police do not know which car is Saudi or not. There is no incentive to not report because of national sensitivity. There are no honor killings associated with parking tickets. All of which suggests that reporting might be higher. Thirdly the whole system of diplomatic parking fines is vountary - they cannot be enforced as diplomats have diplomatic immunity. It reflects whether or not the diplomats have internalised the values of the criminal justice system, whether they do not do something because they know it is wrong as opposed to whether or not they do not do something because they will be executed or whatever. And how do Muslims do?

Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Saudi Arabia 367
#3 Morocco 165
#4 Nigeria 159
#10 Sudan 132
#11 Turkey 130
#12 Qatar 122
#13 Egypt 105
#14 Jordan 99
#15 United Arab Emirates 99
#16 Pakistan 97
#19 Cameroon 77
#25 Oman 58
#31 Bangladesh 49
#34 Tunisia 43
#37 Bahrain 37
#41 Brunei 31
#43 Malaysia 28
#47 Yemen 21
#55 Syria 16
#56 Algeria 16
#59 Iran 14
#75 Senegal 8
#85 Somalia 5
#96 Indonesia 3
#114 Afghanistan 0
#116 Kuwait 0
Total: 4,371
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The Muslim countries of the world are grossly disproportionately represented at the top end of these figures. European countries are disproportionately represented at the bottom on thesse figures. And this is despite the fact that countries like Morocco and Nigeria are likely to have few diplomats in comparision with, say, Germany. What this proves is that the rulers of these Muslim countries have not internalised the values of the criminal justice system. They obey the law because they are afraid of punishment, not because they know it is wrong. Take that fear of punishment away, as in here by granting diplomatic immunity, and they break the law without any shame at all. If this extends to their communities as a whole, and clearly it does in Nigeria, then you would understand why crime figures are likely to be nonsense and rape a problem.
 
HeiGou said:
Well I am not sure he is giving the facts so much as his interpretation of the facts. Let's assume that there are sick and perverted men out there. And let's assume that these sick and perverted men get arosed at the thought of making women afraid, instilling terror and hurting them; that they are rapists in fact. Will they get aroused at the sight of some material? Well perhaps, but it is likely that what really gets them interested is the thought of imposing their power on a helpless woman - revenge for whatever psychological problems they have with women in general. They want to humiliate and scare in order to feel big and powerful. A covered woman might excite them even more because she will be even more humiliated if she is chaste (or even better virginial) and pious.

The world is full of sick people you know. It is not as simple as you make out.
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Yes, but those kind of men are rare. I think the majority of rape incidents happen because of other reasons. And as for those really sick men you mentioned, they may be more reluctant to go on the prowl if the punishment was as severe as, let us say, death? Think about it, isn't really worth it if you're likely to die afterwards is it? And the world is not a simple place indeed. But I was talking about decreasing the rate of rape, stopping it all together is something else.
 
irsha said:
I keep seeing people quote rape statistics to try and back up their opinion that covering up reduces rape. I say rubbish.
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Yes i realised u say that quite sum time ago LOL LOL LOL ;D ;D

:peace: PEACE
 
HeiGou said:
Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
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What? Are you agreeing with us?:?
 
~Mu'MiNaH~ said:
HeiGou said:
Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
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What? Are you agreeing with us?:?
Click to expand...

I often agree with you. Or try.

But not in this case I suspect. You really think that if I park my car outside and allow others to see it, it is my fault if they steal it? Is this Islamic?
 
Muslimah_Sis said:
*takes a deep breath* I have to say one thing. If anyone doesnt like it then tough! As some who has seen numerous Indian films... they always showed that villains would see a pretty girl (walking alone wiggling hips n all) and get turned on by the sight of exposed flesh. They'd then chase the poor girl and rape her. Free sex. No winding & dining needed, just do the deed and off you go. I think this is why some men assume that a woman who isn't covered up is asking for it.

I've also noted that in countries where dating/sex before marriage is forbidden, men rape out of lust alone. Power/hate of women are not the issues there. They are just frustrated, not married, probably can't afford prostitues or there arent any available and so take their frustrations out on women or animals and some even practice homosexuality until they are married. Fact!

In the west most rapes happen for a number of reasons e.g. being high on drink & drugs, maybe even including the influence of pornography, desire for power and control over a victim, out of hostility, aggression and anger (hatred of a woman/women) to achieve dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another, or maybe just because a sicko cannot get a women and has to rape one to satisfy his lust.

What ever the reasons are. No woman is asking to be raped. Not even if she is naked as the day she was born. But I think that a man raping out of lust alone, is more likely to target a woman in a mini-skirt than one who is covered up. Not because she asked for it, but because her being exposed adds to the visual excitement of the rapist.

With men like that around it is safer to cover up. :)
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So true... BARAK-ALLAHU FEEKI!
 
HeiGou said:
I often agree with you. Or try.

But not in this case I suspect. You really think that if I park my car outside and allow others to see it, it is my fault if they steal it? Is this Islamic?
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Lol yeah, and it surprises me each time:okay:.
I see what you're trying to say now. LOL. How is a woman anything like a car????????
No it isn't your fault, but if it's a rough neighbourhood then you're a little dim for parking it there;).
I would've though a woman's body, integrity and safety meant more to her than some stupid material posession so she should try to protect it more.
 
HeiGou said:
Now compare this with the statistics on rape. First of all, the Saudis are in the West and so have a proper system of crime reporting - that is, if not a competent one at least the same one that Western rape figures are reported in. Second there is no bias that can be detected here: police do not know which car is Saudi or not. There is no incentive to not report because of national sensitivity. There are no honor killings associated with parking tickets. All of which suggests that reporting might be higher. Thirdly the whole system of diplomatic parking fines is vountary - they cannot be enforced as diplomats have diplomatic immunity. It reflects whether or not the diplomats have internalised the values of the criminal justice system, whether they do not do something because they know it is wrong as opposed to whether or not they do not do something because they will be executed or whatever. And how do Muslims do?



The Muslim countries of the world are grossly disproportionately represented at the top end of these figures. European countries are disproportionately represented at the bottom on thesse figures. And this is despite the fact that countries like Morocco and Nigeria are likely to have few diplomats in comparision with, say, Germany. What this proves is that the rulers of these Muslim countries have not internalised the values of the criminal justice system. They obey the law because they are afraid of punishment, not because they know it is wrong. Take that fear of punishment away, as in here by granting diplomatic immunity, and they break the law without any shame at all. If this extends to their communities as a whole, and clearly it does in Nigeria, then you would understand why crime figures are likely to be nonsense and rape a problem.
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All what you have written is a matter of opinion. I have stated that those numbers can be used as evidence. Which means that if this case was to go to court, I would use that as evidence. ;)
No it does not prove that what we are saying is true. And it will take a much more concentrated survey to know for sure whether or not wearing Hijab does reduce rape. However that will likely never be done and this matter will remain as a matter of opinion.
 
If you place such faith in that site, have a look at how disproportionate the level of corruption is in muslim countries? Makes you wonder about the figures they want us to see!
Anyway, this is an orchestrated attempt at diversion practiced by some members here that I have seen practice it before. The issue is whether a woman should ever have to be on trial for the way she acted when she is raped.
I have found that many muslims have a particular way of dealing with arguments they can't win.
* say thats unislamic (even when musims do it)
* say they don't trust your sources (notice how quickly that was tried here, till the source was revealed)
* avoid the issue and try and change the subject
* Try and twist non muslims words, then argue about that till the thread no longer resembles the original
* go on the attack and say- yes but what about Iraq, or this or that
* insult the non muslim poster
* twist the facts to fit the theory
* If all else fails- BLAME THE CRUSADES
 
So... you think just because a Muslim does something that makes it islamic?
I'm sorry... but why isn't christianity put in this position?
 
no... im qouting what you said "* say thats unislamic (even when musims do it)"
 
sorry, I cant remember that bit, I thought you were talking about my "Islamics" comment.
But as to your point, we are on a muslims site, thats why I dont say the same about Christians here. Of course Christians do wrong things, but it seems to be muslims who mostly are doing it while yelling Alluha akbar (I think thats how its spelled) Or doing it in Allah's name.
 
I've never heard of anyone yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst raping someone (astaghfirullah!).. After all isnt rape what we're supposed to be talking about.

we can talk about people yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst doing something else, like killing the occupants of their country but thats another topic.. :)
 
:sl:
Irsha, you are making overgeneralisations: only a minority of muslims do as you are saying. Many of them just get on with their lives. Like moi.

Rape isn't correlated with religion. Victims maybe.
 
Ladee_Maryam said:
I've never heard of anyone yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst raping someone (astaghfirullah!).. After all isnt rape what we're supposed to be talking about.

we can talk about people yelling, "Allahu Akbar" whilst doing something else, like killing the occupants of their country but thats another topic.. :)
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Yeah? well do a search on Australian gang rapes.
 
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