NO means NO

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Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?
Well NOW I see what some of the members are trying to say! Of course! HeiGou, I guarantee if you parked that in front of my place, I would not be able to control my instincts. My instincts would tell me that it was natural for me to be behind the wheel of that car.:happy: I would stand beside it for awhile resisting like this, :exhausted :scared:. But then, unfortunately, that would be replaced by :Evil:.
(Yes, it would be your fault)
 
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Well NOW I see what some of the members are trying to say! Of course! HeiGou, I guarantee if you parked that in front of my place, I would not be able to control my instincts. My instincts would tell me that it was natural for me to be behind the wheel of that car.:happy: I would stand beside it for awhile resisting like this, :exhausted :scared:. But then, unfortunately, that would be replaced by :Evil:.

haha ;D lol

thats why such a umm.. "vehicle"... should be "parked" in a "garage".

lol :p

PEACE
 
Well NOW I see what some of the members are trying to say! Of course! HeiGou, I guarantee if you parked that in front of my place, I would not be able to control my instincts. My instincts would tell me that it was natural for me to be behind the wheel of that car.:happy: I would stand beside it for awhile resisting like this, :exhausted :scared:. But then, unfortunately, that would be replaced by :Evil:.
(Yes, it would be your fault)

And if i saw that lovely car, i'd tell you what a great car it is and ask for a ride, if told "no way"... well guess i'd have to be on my way.
 
Why should women have to cover up? Many women dress the way they do because they want to look in the mirror and look attractive for themselves not just for men!

This is starting a bigger topic which I believe has been discussed many times already on the forum. If you want to continue this line of questioning, open a new thread and allow this one to stay on topic.

PS: Women dress up for many different reasons, and if a women chooses to look modest and not draw attention to herself in the form of legs uncovered and boobs that can pierce through space and time - then thats her decision.

Perhaps we should ask if this applies across the board in Islam. One day I want to own a nice shiny car. I used to think a BMW but now I think perhaps a top model Lexus. With a nice clean shiny interior set with real wood perhaps. Certainly leather seats. And a DVD player with more speakers than you would think possible. So if I had such a car and I parked this on the street would it be my fault if someone saw it, envied it and stole it?

Odd analogy. A more correct one is that you have nice shiny new Lexus, you leave your laptop on in the car, doors open, windows down and completely unattended. However, I return to my original point of rapes being taken case by case. (PS: In this case, I don't believe that the theif is absolved from responsiblity. It isn't his property to take. If this analogy was taken straight to a women/rapist situation, even then then the man is not absolved from responsiblity, all because a women is dressed in a certain way does not give him right to rape her.)

Do remember also that the Islamic rule on covering up is not of a simple-minded mentality of 'you flaunt it, you'll get molested'. It is deeper and wiser than that - it suggests a society where people (not just women) are not viewed and judged according to their sexual attractiveness. It is also to promote a society where men's lusts and womens envy are not enraged daily as a scantily clad female walks past.

I feel this is edging off topic however and perhaps worthy of another thread.
 
Odd analogy. A more correct one is that you have nice shiny new Lexus, you leave your laptop on in the car, doors open, windows down and completely unattended.

And then it would be my fault if either my laptop or my car was stolen?

I think I should be able to leave my laptop in my car with the windows down in full expectation that it will be there when I get back. And if it isn't the blame is entirely the person who took it. I should not be judged because I did not do enough to protect my property.

Do remember also that the Islamic rule on covering up is not of a simple-minded mentality of 'you flaunt it, you'll get molested'. It is deeper and wiser than that - it suggests a society where people (not just women) are not viewed and judged according to their sexual attractiveness. It is also to promote a society where men's lusts and womens envy are not enraged daily as a scantily clad female walks past.

Well it may suggest that to you, but I am afraid it suggest to me what some other people point out here - that Islam thinks men are pigs who cannot control themselves and women only have themselves to blame. But I do agree that men's lusts and women's envy will not be "enraged" daily as a scantily clad female walks past. Women's envy will not be enraged at all because they will be locked up at home - can't get too much protection after all - and men's lusts will be enraged daily by heavily-clad women walking past. Men will be interested in women and if they do not see much, they will fantasise about that.
 
Actually I think that is pretty much what she is telling you. Not insinuating at all.

Of all the factors in rape I expect that opportunity grossly out-weighs clothing. And besides most rapes in the West are commited by family members and relatives. Not strangers.

*takes a deep breath* I have to say one thing. If anyone doesnt like it then tough! As some who has seen numerous Indian films... they always showed that villains would see a pretty girl (walking alone wiggling hips n all) and get turned on by the sight of exposed flesh. They'd then chase the poor girl and rape her. Free sex. No winding & dining needed, just do the deed and off you go. I think this is why some men assume that a woman who isn't covered up is asking for it.

I've also noted that in countries where dating/sex before marriage is forbidden, men rape out of lust alone. Power/hate of women are not the issues there. They are just frustrated, not married, probably can't afford prostitues or there arent any available and so take their frustrations out on women or animals and some even practice homosexuality until they are married. Fact!

In the west most rapes happen for a number of reasons e.g. being high on drink & drugs, maybe even including the influence of pornography, desire for power and control over a victim, out of hostility, aggression and anger (hatred of a woman/women) to achieve dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another, or maybe just because a sicko cannot get a women and has to rape one to satisfy his lust.

What ever the reasons are. No woman is asking to be raped. Not even if she is naked as the day she was born. But I think that a man raping out of lust alone, is more likely to target a woman in a mini-skirt than one who is covered up. Not because she asked for it, but because her being exposed adds to the visual excitement of the rapist.

With men like that around it is safer to cover up. :)
 
*takes a deep breath* I have to say one thing. If anyone doesnt like it then tough! As some who has seen numerous Indian films... they always showed that villains would see a pretty girl (walking alone wiggling hips n all) and get turned on by the sight of exposed flesh. They'd then chase the poor girl and rape her. Free sex. No winding & dining needed, just do the deed and off you go. I think this is why some men assume that a woman who isn't covered up is asking for it.

Let me say, to quote the immortal Oprah Winfrey, you go Girl!

Rape is hardly free sex - they take a huge risk and they might even get killed if they are unlucky. But otherwise I am with you. But perhaps the films show it like that because of the cultural expectation that this is what rapists do. It must be hard for normal people to think what goes through a rapists mind.

I've also noted that in countries where dating/sex before marriage is forbidden, men rape out of lust alone. Power/hate of women are not the issues there. They are just frustrated, not married, probably can't afford prostitues or there arent any available and so take their frustrations out on women or animals and some even practice homosexuality until they are married. Fact!

Except that it takes a particularly cruel and de-sensitised mind to think that this is something acceptable - or even what women really want. I don't think the two are unrelated. If normal relations do not work out or are unavailable, I expect men become more bitter and start thinking stranger and stranger things.

In the west most rapes happen for a number of reasons e.g. being high on drink & drugs, maybe even including the influence of pornography, desire for power and control over a victim, out of hostility, aggression and anger (hatred of a woman/women) to achieve dominance and self-validation through the humiliation and degradation of another, or maybe just because a sicko cannot get a women and has to rape one to satisfy his lust.

I think the psychological reasons must come first even in non-Western societies, because why else would anyone do it? If they understood the hurt and the pain they cause, they would not do it no matter how "lonely" they were. They must first come to rationalise and excuse their desires before they act on them.

What ever the reasons are. No woman is asking to be raped. Not even if she is naked as the day she was born. But I think that a man raping out of lust alone, is more likely to target a woman in a mini-skirt than one who is covered up. Not because she asked for it, but because her being exposed adds to the visual excitement of the rapist.

Totally. As far as the first comment goes. Do you think that the visual excitement is all there is to it though?

With men like that around it is safer to cover up. :)

Harsh words.
 
if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.

Comparing women to food is:

Sexist

Foolish

Demeaning

Dismissive

Dehumanizing

Fetishist

Perverse

Ignorant

and

Just plain wrong.


Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!

I find your comments disturbing. You have zero perspective on the global phenomenon of rape and sexual violence, and yet you deem yourself qualified to judge. I would urge you and people like you to educate yourselves on this phenomenon.
 
Some of you memebers need to chill. Come on just have a debate in a civilised manner :)
 
As a woman who survived sexual assault, I find some of the postings on this thread both dangerous and demeaning.

Please excuse me if I am currently incapable of 'chilling.'
 
I am sorry to hear that Lush. Let me ask you a question, rape is in the increase...how do you think should be done about? What do you think in particular should women to do decrese this?
 
Where is rape on the increase? Are you speaking about a specific country? Or pretty much the world?

Well, I would argue that these steps are important:

1) People need to educate themselves. Both men and women. We need respect ourselves and each other, we need to learn from one another. We cannot continue to dehumanize others.

2) Adequate help and protection needs to be given to civilian women in war-zones, since a lot of systematic rapes happen in destabilized countries and communities. Rape is a war crime. Everyone needs to be aware of this.

3) The culture of silence and shame needs to be stripped away. When I was little, my mother, a product of patriarchal society, used to tell me that "only stupid women get raped." So, after my assault, I didn't tell anyone for years. I was a "stupid woman"! Why would I shame myself even further? In communities where rape victims are stigmatized, attackers have free reign. They KNOW that their victims will not dare come forward. This allows them continue to attack others.

4) Women and children and, yes, men, who are raped should no longer be stigmatized. Did you know that in regions like Eastern Africa women who have been raped in conflicts are dumped by their husbands and shunned by their communities? More often than not, their only way out is suicide. This needs to stop. It allows for the perspective that rape-victims are "damaged goods," and discourages them from coming forward and naming their attackers.

5) People need to look out for one another. Everyone feels comfortable about asking a couple of good friend to walk them home, or walk them to the library. However, we know that acquaintance rape, as opposed to stranger rape is the real problem (I was also assaulted by someone I knew, it was no stranger). Therefore, we need to establish better relationships with one another, we need to know whom to trust. It's not a panacea, but I think it might help. Also, if you have a friend who is inebriated, unwell, or perhaps if you suspect that her Pepsi has been laced with drugs, take action! Women ought to look out for other women. If you, as a man, feel that another man wants to take advantage of someone, take action! Men need to look out for other men. Communities that work together on these issues see a strong decrease in rape and sexual assault.

6) Combat the direct percipitators of rape. Did you know that some studies show that in the West, men who rape fall into two categories: they were abused and/or humiliated as children, or they were utterly spoiled and given free reign as children? In either case, they were never educated on the fact that other people are human beings (as opposed to hamburgers). If parents took more responsibility for raising their children properly, if the state did not fail to address the concerns of abused/neglected children, we would see less rape. This is my opinion.

7) Technology. In the West, a battered/raped woman has her body scrupulously photographed, DNA samples are taken, her clothes are combed for the tiniest bits of evidence, and so on. I believe that this practice needs to spread to more nations. I hate to be gruesome, but rape victims should not take showers after they are assaulted. The immediate desire is to try to clean yourself up after what happened, I know, I've been there, but valuable evidence can be lost. Everyone needs to be educated on how their own bodies can provide evidence against attackers. There should be zero shame in being examined as soon as possible by trained professionals after the attack. This, I think, provides a deterrent at least in some cases. A single hair from a rapist, found on the victim, could help with his arrest.

Overall, we need to focus on the fact that there are issues of power, domination, and humiliation involved in rape.
 
Well it may suggest that to you, but I am afraid it suggest to me what some other people point out here - that Islam thinks men are pigs who cannot control themselves and women only have themselves to blame. But I do agree that men's lusts and women's envy will not be "enraged" daily as a scantily clad female walks past. Women's envy will not be enraged at all because they will be locked up at home - can't get too much protection after all - and men's lusts will be enraged daily by heavily-clad women walking past. Men will be interested in women and if they do not see much, they will fantasise about that.

If what Islam teaches is shown to you and what Islam teaches is explained to you - and you decide to take a completely different interpretation. What can anyone do? I feel your opinion is set - "Islam is an outdated way of life and the West are superior in all ways".
 
And then it would be my fault if either my laptop or my car was stolen?

I think I should be able to leave my laptop in my car with the windows down in full expectation that it will be there when I get back. And if it isn't the blame is entirely the person who took it. I should not be judged because I did not do enough to protect my property.

No it wouldn't be your fault your laptop was stolen. However, you would be judged as careless and irresponsible. Only an idiot would expect it to still be there when he comes back.

I don't feel the car analogy does justice to the situation either way - though humans love to generalise we cannot when talking about rape.

I would also like to remind everyone that we're not talking about Islam believing women are the ones responsible for rape - as the Islamic view has not been made clear and cannot be made clear by anyone but an expert scholar in the field.

Rather, we are discussing if women 'can' be responsible in some situations for being raped. There is no Shariah punishment for a 'raped' women - full stop. The 'guilt' talked about earlier is to be responsible in front of Allah for not taking the neccesary precautions to protect themself and to take care of themself by placing themselves in an openly dangerous situation.

I can imagine the phrase above will be jumped on by people (*cough* HeiGou *cough*) saying how there are no 'openly dangerous situations'.

If someone is intoxicated to the point they cannot even remember giving consent for sex or not - is that not an openly dangerous situation?

If someone invites a complete stranger to their flat - not making clear the intentions - is that not a dangerous situation?

If someone is offering themselves for sex, and they are raped - is that not a dangerous situation? (I'm reffering to prostitutes here - there are a substantial amount of rape cases reported by prostitutes).

This does not mean under Shariah law they are punished or guilty 'of being raped'.

I'd like to remind people of the original article which prompted this debate.
Moving to your question. Yes, sister, raped women are not punished in Islam. What punishment?! This is like saying that a person robbed of his property should be punished. Actually, this notion belongs to places where the law of the jungle is in operation.

I am sure that realistically, all rape victims are exacty that, victims! Yet there are grey areas, and Islam accomodates for these grey areas.

Justice is not following emotion. Rape is a crime that is detested and hated in all our hearts (I hope). Yet to judge cases emotionally is not justice. Critical thinking is neccessary. There are many cases against men charging them of rape when rape did not occur. Justice is for both these men, and also the rape victims.
 
PS: Women dress up for many different reasons, and if a women chooses to look modest and not draw attention to herself in the form of legs uncovered and boobs that can pierce through space and time - then thats her decision.

Of course it is, and if a woman chooses to wear head to toe covering- no problem, a woamn should be able to wear what she wants as long as she takes into consideration others, I would not walk into a mosque wearing a mini skirt and see thru top, nor would I walk down the main street in a g string- time and place, but if one goes to a night cloub, knowing girls like to wear sexy clothing there- they should not be offended, and it certainly doesnt mean they want to be raped.


Do remember also that the Islamic rule on covering up is not of a simple-minded mentality of 'you flaunt it, you'll get molested'.
It is deeper and wiser than that - it suggests a society where people (not just women) are not viewed and judged according to their sexual attractiveness. It is also to promote a society where men's lusts and womens envy are not enraged daily as a scantily clad female walks past.

Nice to see that attitude at last here!
 
I have to say, with regret, that the girls now-a-days dress, in a way,that says, come get me. Here in the land of no morals. Hardly. I think it is a shame, and I am a woman..
 
NEVA A WOMANS FAULT?

if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.

Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!

this means, if men are so helpless and have so little control over themselves than they should all be locked up for their own protection from themselves because it is not safe to venture out in public - they might meat a big fat juicy burger.
 
Of course it is, and if a woman chooses to wear head to toe covering- no problem, a woamn should be able to wear what she wants as long as she takes into consideration others, I would not walk into a mosque wearing a mini skirt and see thru top, nor would I walk down the main street in a g string- time and place, but if one goes to a night cloub, knowing girls like to wear sexy clothing there- they should not be offended, and it certainly doesnt mean they want to be raped.

If a Muslim goes to a night club and then starts insulting the women there for the clothing they are wearing - then he is a hyprocrite - preaching one thing and doing another.

As Muslims, we believe nightclubs and the like are places we should not go, for reasons including the large amount of intoxicants (beyond simply alchohol) that are consumed and the open sexual nature of the place.

Islam teaches sex is a not the satisfaction of base desires but expression of love and affection between married couples.

Just to explain the Islamic view on nightclubs while we're here ;P.

Nice to see that attitude at last here!

I feel ashamed that an attitude so central to Islamic society has not been predominant on an Islamic forum.

Peace.
 
this means, if men are so helpless and have so little control over themselves than they should all be locked up for their own protection from themselves because it is not safe to venture out in public - they might meat a big fat juicy burger.

yes they should be locked up, i wud say they should even be killed if they actually act on these disgusting desires BUT THEY ARENT! AND THEY DONT GET KILLED?

What can we do? We must do something right? We must take some sort of action to decrease the rate of rape! Rape isnt a minor thing, i wud gladly do the smallest thing i could to decrease it such as "cover up".

:sl:
 
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