NO means NO

[azim]

Men should be able to control thier primitive urges, what are we? Wild animals?

I live in the UK, which is meant to be the 'binge drinking' capital of the World. I also happen to live in Cardiff, which happens to be the 'binge drinking' capital of the UK.

Sometimes, I have no choice but to walk through the town centre on a Friday or Saturday night. The amount of alchohol consumed completely diminishes what were once human beings to completely wild animals in every sense of the word.

 

[HeiGou]

The majority of rapes in this country (UK) happen to women who are clubbing. Again, the types differ. From 'date rape' drugs, to rapes while the women is unconcious or too drunk to give consent, to violent rapings which can end in murder even as far as intentional rapes for 'revenge' (it has happened quite often believe it or not).

It may be the case that most rapes happen to women out clubbing, although I would question that figure, but clubs are not where women are at most risk. The most likely perpetrator of rape is a woman's "partner" (32 percent) and the next on the list is "acquaintance" (22 percent). Current partners are responsible for 45 percent of all reported rapes. Strangers make up just 8 percent which is down from 12 percent in 1996 which in turn was down from 30 percent in 1985. I would like to think the numbers are going down but it is more likely the numbers of other rapes are going up.

The UK happens to be a very safe place for women despite what seems to me to be insanely stupid behaviour.

 

[azim]

It may be the case that most rapes happen to women out clubbing, although I would question that figure, but clubs are not where women are at most risk. The most likely perpetrator of rape is a woman's "partner" (32 percent) and the next on the list is "acquaintance" (22 percent). Current partners are responsible for 45 percent of all reported rapes. Strangers make up just 8 percent which is down from 12 percent in 1996 which in turn was down from 30 percent in 1985. I would like to think the numbers are going down but it is more likely the numbers of other rapes are going up.

The UK happens to be a very safe place for women despite what seems to me to be insanely stupid behaviour.

Perhaps the figures you have are in regard to convicted rapes. I took my statistic from figures published in the Guardian a few weeks (possibly month or so) back, I'll try to find it again as it was an interesting article.

I find it horrific to think that the most common rapist is the womens partner, I am assuming these cases are often linked with domestic abuse.

I have read recently that there are serious problems legally speaking in trying to convict women who are raped while clubbing or drunk. The only witnesses are the alleged rapist and victim and they are less than reliable witnesses due to their intoxicated state.

 

[irsha]

I have read some ridiculous stuff on this forum, but that just tops the list- how the hell do you know "no means no"- are you a mind reader?
How do you know whats going through their head!

WEll, Now I have seen the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen on any site I visit. How the hell do I know if no means no? Because I speak English (oooooh, I have never been so tempted to personally insult anyone here as right now) One does not have to be a mind reader to expect that when someone says NO, they mean NO, and to take any other course of action is called rape.
I sincerely hope you have never had sex with a woman who has said no, otherwise you are guilty of rape.

Oh, I could just see this in court
Judge - "did you ask this woman if you could have sex with her"?
You- "Yes"
Judge- "and what did she say"?
You- " she said no"
Judge- "But you went ahead anyway and had sex with her"?
You- "yes"
Judge "Why, when you know she said no?"
You- "well I couldn't see into her head, so I presumed she meant yes, because I am so hot looking and a real stud"
Judge-" In any civilised society, the words NO means NO, I find you guilty of rape"

 

[irsha]

dont go trusting random internet sites, they mislead people and show a false islam.

peace

Mr. Kamal Badr

Head of Fatwa English Section - IslamOnline.net

Former Head of Religious Department/editor/translator
ART Satellite Channel, Translation Department

Four years of experience as editor/columnist/proofreader in The Egyptian Gazette (1994-98)

Preparing thesis for M.A on "modes of reparation - comparative study between shri'a and international law"

Post graduate diploma on "Islamic legal politics" (al-siyasa al shari'a) 1993-96

LLB Faculty of Law and Shari'a, al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt (1987-1992)

 

[Lush]

Ok,

Let's get some things straight here.

Civilized people agree that rape is, first and foremost, an issue of domination and humiliation, rather than some sort of insane desire for sex. Statistics prove this. Most women are raped by people they know.

Let's wrap our minds around that before we go around blaming victims for sexual violence.

As for the website in question, it should be petitioned, and Muslims ought to protest, just like everyone protested when this so-called sheikh in Australia publicly blamed women for rape.

 

[Lush]

Mr. Kamal Badr

Wow, this guy has a degree?

I guess lots of idiots have degrees nowadays... Even Bush has got one. It's a shame, however, that his supposed "Islamic knowledge" should be dispensed among online communities.

Shame, shame, shame.

And shame on anyone who agrees with him.

 

[irsha]

Salaam

If a women runs around naked, then she's putting her self at risk and she has to bare some responsabilty for whatever happens

Why, because men cannot control themeselves? There can never be an excuse for rape, the moment we let men have excuses for rape, is the moment we lose the right to call ourselves civilised.
So you blame the woman if she is naked? What aout a G string? what about a bikini?, how about mini skirt and midriff top? or maybe jeans and jumper? muslim clothing except for hijab? , muslim cothing with hijab but no veil? full muslim clothing with veil but walking on her own to the neighbours house?
Where do YOU draw the line on when a woman is not at fault?
Do you think women should be questioned as a criminal would, in a rape case, to see if she was at fault in being raped?
The whole Idea is sickening, women should not have to prove anything except that the man had sex with her against her will, end of story- It is NEVER a womans fault if a man forces himself onto her.

 

[Lush]

Irsha,

I would suggest that you let islam-truth wallow in his own ignorance. There is a wealth of statistics out there that suggest that he is dead wrong in his beliefs, but, unfortunately, some people see what they want to see. For him, this is probably yet another excuse to slander "the evil West" and praise a patriarchal structure that makes it all too convenient for men like him to oppress those who are different.

I have wasted countless hours, arguing with countless people about this issue, but sometimes, one has to save oneself the trouble.

I always wonder if a man like that would change his mind if his mother, sister, daughter, or wife were raped, but then again, I would never wish anything like that on another person regardless of where they stand.

You are right that we are standing on a slippery slope of definitions, however. But look at his wording... "If a woman runs around naked..." He has no idea what he's talking about. And he won't understand. There's no point. Pick your battles.

 

[Malsidabym]

Pick your battles.

This is wisdom.

 

[Al-Mu'min]

And yet, despite the supposed epidemic of rape in the West, women go out at night and walk the streets in very little clothing very late at night. Often after consuming too much alcohol. Therefore, I think it is safe to conclude, the streets are extremely safe and rape is, in fact, rather rare. Muslimas on the other hand are usually restricted even more than Islamic law says they ought to be. They are often not allowed out at all - look at Saudi Arabia. They usually wear more restrictive clothing than Islamic law seems to require in a strict sense. Therefore, I think, it is safe to conclude that the streets are extremely dangerous and rape must be, actually, rather common and would be even more common if these women were not protected so strongly.

Peace.
You are mistaken Mr. Cunfucious.
The wild wild west is far more dangerous than Islamic practicing countries. Not only in rape cases, but in every crime possible. Please view the other stats beside the rape crimes.

Rapes per capita:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap
Notice how the U.S is 9th on the list while Saudi Arabia is 65th which is the last on the list.

Rapes in general:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
Here the U.S is 1st!! Saudia arabia is listed 52nd.

Rape Victims:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_vic
The U.S is 13th while the U.K is 6th. Saudi Arabia isn't even listed.

Total Crime Victims:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_vic

Total Crimes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri
U.S is first, U.K is third. Saudi Arabia doesn't even make the list of 61!!

Other Crime Categories:
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri

I bet if you add up all the crime commited in Islamic practicing countries, it will not total, the combined crime commited in the U.S and the U.K. And you think the west is a safer place:heated:

Peace.

 

[Lush]

Al-Mu'Min,

So-called Muslim nations usually have a great deal more stigma attached to rape.

It is estimated that the majority of rape victims in patriarchal societies do not come forward, because they are shamed. Sometimes, they are even killed.

Considering some of the so-called clerics out there, I'm not even surprised.

Statistics are moot for as long as a culture of shame exists.

Rape is a global problem.

 

[HeiGou]

And yet, despite the supposed epidemic of rape in the West, women go out at night and walk the streets in very little clothing very late at night. Often after consuming too much alcohol. Therefore, I think it is safe to conclude, the streets are extremely safe and rape is, in fact, rather rare. Muslimas on the other hand are usually restricted even more than Islamic law says they ought to be. They are often not allowed out at all - look at Saudi Arabia. They usually wear more restrictive clothing than Islamic law seems to require in a strict sense. Therefore, I think, it is safe to conclude that the streets are extremely dangerous and rape must be, actually, rather common and would be even more common if these women were not protected so strongly.

The wild wild west is far more dangerous than Islamic practicing countries. Not only in rape cases, but in every crime possible. Please view the other stats beside the rape crimes.

I am not denying that Saudi Arabia and so on produce very low crime statistics. What I am saying is given that those statistics are useless, what are the indications of the real situation. And let me say it again - in the West women can and do go out late at night wearing very little often under the influence of alcohol, without serious consequence. Therefore the West must be safe. The Muslim countries are generally more restrictive than Islamic law demands. Therefore, whatever the government figures are, they must not be that safe.

Can we agree that many Muslim countries have all the predictors for a serious rape and crime problem - many young men, who have high unemployment rates, and who have grown up in cultures that stigmatise women who get raped, and where law enforcement for rape is next to non-existant?

Rapes per capita:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap

Notice how the U.S is 9th on the list while Saudi Arabia is 65th which is the last on the list.

Which shows that more people report rape in the US than in many places. I also note that the US criminalises spousal rape which is not a crime in Islamic law or in many other legal systems.

Rapes in general:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
Here the U.S is 1st!! Saudia arabia is listed 52nd.

Which proves little except that it would be a waste of time to report rape in Saudi Arabia.

I bet if you add up all the crime commited in Islamic practicing countries, it will not total, the combined crime commited in the U.S and the U.K. And you think the west is a safer place:heated:

I bet if you added up all the crimes it would be by far and away. I am happy to accept that certain types of crimes are likely to be less common in many Muslim countries. But the problem is you are insisting on reported crimes when you ought to be looking at the bigger picture and in particular the problems reporting. If a country displays signs of crime avoidance that indicates what people think. My brother, for instance, does not lock up his car when he parks it. It has never been stolen. I wouldn't keep valuables in the open inside my home even if the door was locked. We are each voting with our possessions for who has the lowest crime rate.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Why do you think this Mu'MiNaH?

Because then sick men will think twice before letting their perverted desires take control of their senses.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Why, because men cannot control themeselves? There can never be an excuse for rape, the moment we let men have excuses for rape, is the moment we lose the right to call ourselves civilised.
So you blame the woman if she is naked? What aout a G string? what about a bikini?, how about mini skirt and midriff top? or maybe jeans and jumper? muslim clothing except for hijab? , muslim cothing with hijab but no veil? full muslim clothing with veil but walking on her own to the neighbours house?
Where do YOU draw the line on when a woman is not at fault?
Do you think women should be questioned as a criminal would, in a rape case, to see if she was at fault in being raped?
The whole Idea is sickening, women should not have to prove anything except that the man had sex with her against her will, end of story- It is NEVER a womans fault if a man forces himself onto her.

True, but maybe she and the law could do more to protect herself. You have to realise that even if you are dressing for yourself, there are deranged and perverted men out there. And I think if the man didn't think the punishment was so light like it is in the west he would think twice before going on the prowl.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

The whole Idea is sickening, women should not have to prove anything except that the man had sex with her against her will, end of story- It is NEVER a womans fault if a man forces himself onto her.

NEVA A WOMANS FAULT?

if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.

Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Irsha,

I would suggest that you let islam-truth wallow in his own ignorance. .

Not once have i seen dear brother islam-truth say anything "false/ignorant/offensive". He has stated that which is true? If you do not agree wiv him you do not stick up for the moral values of certain human beings!

Peace

 

[irsha]

NEVA A WOMANS FAULT?

if i put a big fat juicy burger in front of you while ur starving YOU TRY RESIST EATING IT! GO ON? TRY? IF U MANAGE TO DO IT, WIV ALL DUE RESPECT MENTION THE SAME THING AGAIN!!!! and this time i will shut up and accept exactly what u sAY.

Temptation is a nature, a nature every1 is well aware of. Some men are ofcourse weaker in controlling temptation. Women should understand this and do there part in helping "civilization" because it is noway civilised for women to walk around half naked expecting men to not lust after them. Not every men can be like muslims who lower there gazes so i find ur comments laughable!!!!!!!

I cannot believe you would compare eating a hamburger to being raped? And, being a model, I have resisted eating fattening foods for many years now, so it wouldn't be a problem.
As to your comment about the hamburger, really, its sounds like you are saying that men are like starving people who cannot resist a last chance at a meal, instead of civilised beings who God created with a conscience and a brain.
I DO NOT find your comments laughable, I dont think rape is a laughing matter.
Also, how would you explain people from tribes in remote countries like in the Amazon? They walk around more than 1/2 nakd all the time, and they aren't continually being raped by the men in their tribes? Maybe they are more civilised than the type of people you describe?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I cannot believe you would compare eating a hamburger to being raped? And, being a model, I have resisted eating fattening foods for many years now, so it wouldn't be a problem.
As to your comment about the hamburger, really, its sounds like you are saying that men are like starving people who cannot resist a last chance at a meal, instead of civilised beings who God created with a conscience and a brain.
I DO NOT find your comments laughable, I dont think rape is a laughing matter.
Also, how would you explain people from tribes in remote countries like in the Amazon? They walk around more than 1/2 nakd all the time, and they aren't continually being raped by the men in their tribes? Maybe they are more civilised than the type of people you describe?

how do u kno wats going around ova at the amazon? what have you lived wiv them for a long time or something?
aah so ur a model :rollseyes , i only compared starvation to lust to give you an insight to what i believe is happening around us! i kno very well that rape is much worser BUT im saying if you kno rape happens, WHY NOT DECREASE IT? WHY? WHY DO U INSIST ON WEARING SUCH CLOTHING KNOWING WHAT MEN THINK? this encourages men! They look at u and think ur dressed in such a way to "attract" there attention and when they rape you they may even think you "want it". I hope i hav made myself clear. is there nething else i need to explain??

peace....

 

[irsha]

Oh you have made yourself clear alright, very clear. I just hope I never meet anyone like you in real life.